AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Piercing, d8, x3 crit mod. One hander. Without having to take any feats to take it.

Let's not make the spear a one-hander.

*Eye roll*
Yet we allow scims, rapiers and kurki's with crit ranges of 18-20 to be allowed. Rapier also being piercing and only 2 points in damage removed from spear.

Your argument doesn't really stand in the face of that.

Short spears are a separate weapon in DnD, and they're d6/x2. Longspears are what's in Bioware's NWN, and they're 2handed d8/x3.

Ergo PnP lore flies in the face of that mod.

Check out that second link Tormak. It changes the spear stats to 1d6 x2.

If a poll was taken I'd take a bet that many people with spear's would probably be willing to have the drop in exchange for it being one handed.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

*Eye roll*
Yet we allow scims, rapiers and kurki's with crit ranges of 18-20 to be allowed. Rapier also being piercing and only 2 points in damage removed from spear.

Your argument doesn't really stand in the face of that.

Eye roll all you want.

My argument still stands.

You propose that just because bioware implemented one broken weapon, we should add another?

No thanks.

You suppose it's broken. The rapier isn't. It's just not right for the PC Game. It be fine in PnP.

And your argument isn't valid anyway. Second link sets spears to 1d6, x2 crit.

I wasn't talking about the second link.

And I consider both the scimitar and rapier to be "broken" in regards to PW balance for NWN.

I see no reason to change base weapon mechanics, tbh.

EDIT: Haha. Unless that mechanic is making rapiers, scimitars, and kukris 19-20.

That's all fine and dandy, but a few people disagreed with the Null Cloak thing and it still got put in. So I guess it still has a chance.

Well, I actually added some models to make the spear look more like a ... spear. So, if the current stats are for a spear and not for a shorty it doesn't make sense to change the stats.

I am not sure about changing such fundamental things, really. On the other hand, I can't say I care a lot about it either.

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

Poo.. I loved those UD ones. The Green grids are just how they are. I believe its because of how the pieces go on with the high ceilings and such.

Maybe an Unlocked camera override will help you guys with the issues? Lets you move the camera -any- way you want it.
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Ot ... il&id=1358

Can the people with those navigation issues try this? I am not against ditching those tiles but it does add a bit more work.

Really glad to see this happen, and certainly have faith in Disco's choices for HAKs. Enjoy the new lego blocks, Feathers.

TormakSaber wrote:

EDIT: Haha. Unless that mechanic is making rapiers, scimitars, and kukris 19-20.

I foresee a river of tears if this happens. >_>

I believe that Hak makes those things PnP like. The longspear doesn't look anything like a longspear in game anyway. The model reminds me of a short spear. A longspear is much...well...longer. Those new models look like simple shortspear models to me, not longspear models.

Not only is the long spear, well, long in PnP; it also provides 10 foot reach. Not to shabby. Despite all the 'don't add another broken weapon' calls the spear is so broken as to be unsable, and sadly what should be the most ubiquitous weapon is relegated to the realms of 'hardcore RP only need apply'.

As for the bastard sword/katana change that would be an excellent and lorewise correct change.

Mr T

What bioware added is a shortspear by it looks, as foot or two of lenght would make it longspear.(in corelation to height of human male character)

Perhaps we could actually add shortspear as 1d6pierc X2 separate weapons that is onehanded to medium creatures and large to small creatures, freeing up option of spear to goblins and kobolds who actually see it as one of their main weapons.

Bjorn wrote:

What bioware added is a shortspear by it looks, as foot or two of lenght would make it longspear.(in corelation to height of human male character)

Perhaps we could actually add shortspear as 1d6pierc X2 separate weapons that is onehanded to medium creatures and large to small creatures, freeing up option of spear to goblins and kobolds who actually see it as one of their main weapons.

If it were a shortspear you'd be able to use a shield with it.

Why not just get rid of the longspear? NWN cant do range anyway. Have them as short spears, single handed, 1d6 x2, 20 and its balanced.

Well, the better idea would be two add some short-spear-like models as short swords, which are piercing one-handed weapons.

My only concern is that that would also make the shortspear 19-20 crit whereas the longspear would still be 20. There wouldnt be fidelity between the weapons ergo shortbow and longbow.

Additionally, the spear is meant to be a simple weapon whereas shortswords are rogue/martial weapons. I dont know if that'd be a problem either.

I would like to see something done with spears though

Yes it would still fit, because shortbow and longbow are both 2 handers. But the short spear would be 1 hander, so less damage offers up chance f shield. So it equals out much better,

Selvec Darkon wrote:

There is also this
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Ha ... il&id=7457
Add's a few changes to things. Makes Katana's & Bastard Swords two handed if you only have martial proficency. It makes spears one handed, and whips useable in the offhand. Didn't know if that would be considered however given the other changes.

Do that one if you're gonna do anything at all. It's a small and simple HAK that offers good stuff.

Well, I don't mind adding that. It seems sensible. Ben Harrison is generally adding solid stuff so I guess it won't mess up anything. Any DM objections?

Does it replace the two-handed spears and one-handed katanas and bastard swords?

It's fine from a balance perspective, but I reckon the option to use them the old way should remain.

Quote:

Update, 18/06/2009
• Fixed bug that caused the Mummy Dust spell's Warrior Lord summon to spawn without katana; now uses two-handed katana (thanks to Norman Yamaguchi for pointing this out!)
• Replaced Warrior Lord summon's Improved Critical: Short Sword feat with Improved Critical: Katana

Would that have a potential impact on Amia's custom EMD?

IronAngel wrote:

Does it replace the two-handed spears and one-handed katanas and bastard swords?

The spears are replaced, the katanas and bastard swords are not.

And I believe there would be a greater use of the spears if they would be one-handed.

I would keep them as is, because there's already the option of Monkey Grip. I don't feel strongly either way, we'd just have to refund people their widgets and possibly DC items.

The bastard swords and katanas are great, though.

IronAngel wrote:

I would keep them as is, because there's already the option of Monkey Grip. I don't feel strongly either way, we'd just have to refund people their widgets and possibly DC items.

Isn't there only like... 1, maybe two, who've gotten monkey grip with a spear, specifically?

I believe two, and at least one DC spear. Not a big deal, but I'm sure a bunch of spear-wielders would get pissed at their build and character concept getting changed. I dunno.

I see little reason to replace it with a worse weapon, tbh. Especially with the cool new long models.

Wouldn't it be possible to just add it as another weapon?

It's using the base models already from the other spear, which means it should "simply" be to add it to the weapon tables and make feats for it.

>.<

That would be awesome beyond compare, if someone knew how to do it easily.

Bjorn wrote:

What bioware added is a shortspear by it looks, as foot or two of lenght would make it longspear.(in corelation to height of human male character)

Perhaps we could actually add shortspear as 1d6pierc X2 separate weapons that is onehanded to medium creatures and large to small creatures, freeing up option of spear to goblins and kobolds who actually see it as one of their main weapons.

Unfortunatly adding new weapons with HAKS still causes issues. Weapon Focus is hardcoded I think, so you can't add the new weapon to the weapon focus menu. Same with Dev Crit menu, Imp Crit Menu etc etc. Just a pain the ass to do. Dragons coast used to try and do it with mauls. Didn't work to well. It's why I suggested to disco that maul be put on heavy flail as a skin, it avoids the issues that occur from putting in new weapons. Even if you do look kinda dorky running around holding a maul like a heavy flail, but the animation could possibly be changed with a hak.

@IronAngel: Ask the two with DC's if it's okay, they probably won't have an issue. Put up a poll for the rest. I've only ever seen a few characters using the spear. Couple of Druids for fleshing out their character, dispite the fact that they rarely ever go close combat & one WM who did it for kicks. That WM still complains that he dies way to much and would give his left nut for a sheild, I believe he was saving for monkey grip.

Still, poll if it's a concern.

I know I'd rather pay for Monkey Grip than use a spear that sucked more than a club, though.

I guess it's a poll matter, though.

It doesn't really suck. Mago said it right above when he was talking about one handed bioware spear. Piercing makes up for the lack of damage in the end.

It's still worse than a club or mace which are bludgeoning, much worse than a short sword, and second only to the dagger. Unless you go WM or just focus in critting, in which case the dagger is better. Not that the current incarnation is wooty, but it's usable.

If it was one-handed Bioware spear, it'd be great. 1d8, x3. We're talking 1d6, x2. It's piss poor.

Last edited by Mr Mago on Sat, Jan 02 2010, 16:33 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

you can't add the new weapon to the weapon focus menu.

You can... but as you said yourself;

Quote:

Just a pain the ass to do.

Generally speaking.

IronAngel wrote:

It's still worse than a club or mace which are bludgeoning, much worse than a short sword, and second only to the dagger. Unless you go WM or just focus in critting, in which case the dagger is better. Not that the current incarnation is wooty, but it's usable.

If it was one-handed Bioware spear, it'd be great. 1d8, x3. We're talking 1d6, x2. It's piss poor.

I suggested it just being a one handed Bioware Spear, got had a go at for it. Apperently it would be unbalanced and overpowered. Check the other page for the exact words.

Edit: Nevermind, it's this page. It's 6am, i'm going to bed. Keep screwin' up my sleeping time.

Mr Mago wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

you can't add the new weapon to the weapon focus menu.

They can... but as you said yourself;

Quote:

Just a pain the ass to do.

Generally speaking.

Never seen it done, or rather, never seen it done well. I imagine remembering to add the new weapon to every single piece of code that references it would be beyond hell. As not only would the basic feat menu's require it, but maybe some spells to. *shrugs* I don't code, so I don't know, but I imagine it would be hell enough that doing it wouldn't be worth it.

Simply speaking from convenience point of view I'd stick with changing the spear stats and not adding a new option.

IronAngel wrote:

I know I'd rather pay for Monkey Grip than use a spear that sucked more than a club, though.

Same.

As soon as I have enough DCs, Auron will go back wielding a spear and shield.

Low AC was the only reason why I rebuilt him to use rapier. But spear is his weapon. It only sucked that his AC would be awfully low because of it.

Not sure if we gain anything by changing the item type. Some people will find it more attractive, others will lament. It's a complete change to the purpose of the weapon, anyhow: the original is relatively high-damage, a x3 crit modifier two-hander, whereas the suggested one is an extremely low-damage one-hander with no critting viability. Whether it's good or not, it's a complete change nonetheless.

I'd definetely go for the two-hander katanas and bastard swords, though.

Would spears still get the 1.5 STR bonus if used one handed?

IronAngel wrote:

Not sure if we gain anything by changing the item type. Some people will find it more attractive, others will lament. It's a complete change to the purpose of the weapon, anyhow: the original is relatively high-damage, a x3 crit modifier two-hander, whereas the suggested one is an extremely low-damage one-hander with no critting viability. Whether it's good or not, it's a complete change nonetheless.

I'd definetely go for the two-hander katanas and bastard swords, though.

If I may. 1d8 isn't relatively high damage, even with the pathetic "damage modifier" two handed weapons get. Longsword is 1d8. Halberd is even 1d10, and is both piercing & slashing damage with x3 crits. Spear is completely blasted by all these other two handers at the moment, it's not even in the same league. Which is why I personally think it should be one handed.

If I could, I'd perhaps even suggest doing something like how they did the two handed weapons. Spear placed in "exotic" or "martial" for one handed, and "simple" for two handed. Again though, I have no idea if this could be done by anyone here.

If it's possible to keep the damage at 1d8, and change the crits to x2, then it may be a nice medium. However again, I don't know how to do this with haks, perhaps disco or terra do.

@Halecta: One would assume not, as the type of the weapon changes to medium, not large I think. I could be wrong.

Halecta wrote:

Would spears still get the 1.5 STR bonus if used one handed?

Nope.

I'm glad there is a discussion about the spear.

When looking at actual history, the spear was widely used.

The spear is never used on Amia, so something has to change.

Murex wrote:

I'm glad there is a discussion about the spear.

When looking at actual history, the spear was widely used.

The spear is never used on Amia, so something has to change.

Amia doesn't have to match history. While I agree with the contention, I find that argument rather lacking.

Yurell wrote:

Murex wrote:

I'm glad there is a discussion about the spear.

When looking at actual history, the spear was widely used.

The spear is never used on Amia, so something has to change.

Amia doesn't have to match history. While I agree with the contention, I find that argument rather lacking.

Lacking? This is proof that the spear is not balanced in the game. And why shouldn't it match history? This is alalagous with matching reality.

I understand that Amia isn't real, but that's just a cop-out excuse for not changing the spear to match what it is in reality.

Murex wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Murex wrote:

I'm glad there is a discussion about the spear.

When looking at actual history, the spear was widely used.

The spear is never used on Amia, so something has to change.

Amia doesn't have to match history. While I agree with the contention, I find that argument rather lacking.

Lacking? This is proof that the spear is not balanced in the game. And why shouldn't it match history? This is alalagous with matching reality.

I understand that Amia isn't real, but that's just a cop-out excuse for not changing the spear to match what it is in reality.

Why? Because Amia doesn't match history. There were no mages in history - should we remove them? In history, there was one sentient species - should we remove the others? In history, half a dozen swings from a battleaxe would be more than sufficient to kill someone - should we remove the HP system? In history, people generally didn't drink spirits until the 16th century, yet Amia is clearly set before then - should we remove spirits? In history, many of the weapons present in Amia were never used in the same time period - should we bring down the number of weapons and armour?

'In history it was this way and this is sufficient proof for it to be this way in Amia' is not a strong argument, because it is not sufficient proof.

Dev Disco wrote:

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

Poo.. I loved those UD ones. The Green grids are just how they are. I believe its because of how the pieces go on with the high ceilings and such.

Maybe an Unlocked camera override will help you guys with the issues? Lets you move the camera -any- way you want it.
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Ot ... il&id=1358

Can the people with those navigation issues try this? I am not against ditching those tiles but it does add a bit more work.

Worked for me!

And Crossbows in 'reality' had better penetration of armor than Longbows, yet statistically you're better with a longbow.

However, Forgotten Realms isn't reality. Different armors, different defenses, different opponents. I can guarantee that a Spear is a very poor weapon against a small target, due to it being a long, precise weapon that strikes forwards. Sweeping weapons, like swords, that have a wider area of attack thusly are more effective.

Given some of the most common opponents in the world are kobolds and goblins, you may find that such weapons are more effective.

However, this all brings me down to a seperate point;

Things are fine as they are, and the fact they don't match your perceptions alone doesn't necessarily make them 'wrong'.

Yurell wrote:

<snip>... There were no mages in history....</snip>

This is blasphemy!

There most definately were mages in history.

</rant>

Do keep in mind that spears weren't widely used in singles combat. They were used when you had large groups of men all wielding them. Thus making it more of a porcupine defense. You may get past one spear, but you won't get past the other 4 that are aimed at your heart.

Once the group was broken up, most of them would switch to swords or some other preferred weapon.

The exception to this is the Zulu tribe in Africa who used a short spear as their main weapon. But this spear, unlike the European version, was only about 2' long and was easily maneuvered in battle.

Split: Spears and haks

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