AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

....i would just like to remind people that playing a inheritedly evil race..

this being goblins, kobolds, orcs, orogs, ogrrillions, tanarukk, hobgoblin, bugbear, ogre, drow..and so forth...does not mean that the world will immidiately accept if you happen to one of the few who have turned from thier inheretly evil nature, fearun clearly has a very hostile position towards all these races, and to expect anything else from others rp, and start to argue this point oocly, is just plain wrong. i suggest source materials such as races of fearun for futher studies as it is approved wizard of the coast material on this very subject.

And here I was thinking this thread was going to be a good one.

Playing a Gruumsh worshipper is easier said then done just to let you know.

I would have liked this post to be more informative, say, instead of suggesting folks read up on Greenskins, maybe write out a little bit about them as a guideline. It looks a bit less "L2P" if done that way. So why don't you take some time to tell us about them?

I'm willing to help out any player who wants tips on Greenskins. Just send me a PM.

As Lally suggested, why not post your suggestions in this thread instead of asking people to PM you?

EDIT: It is easier and you can reach more people this way.

I've done that before. If they send a PM, I know they're keen so I'm not wasting my time.

The simple summary is that there's no grey with full blooded orcs. You're evil, you're a beast and people should hate you as much as fear you. Humans wage wars to anihilate you thus you should do the same. The Orcish deities however are hard to implement from a player's perspective because they're so straight forward. You have to think long and hard before you create a Greenskin.

Please also note that before telling people to read up on things, make sure you know what colour Goblins are...

"A goblin’s skin color ranges from yellow through any shade of orange to a deep red"

Also note that there is grey in all races that do not have the 'always' qualifies in the alignment entry of their Monster Manual page.

Otherwise, we would not have Grey Dwarves! (badoomtish!).

Almost every orc is Chaotic Evil. The only two orcish races that could get away with a CN, LE or NE alignment are Orogs due to their intelligence... and possibly Grey Orcs because it depends on how their shamans govern the tribe.

They're a direct reflection of Gruumsh and the other Orcish deities: destroy everyone. The only difference in how they operate is whether they follow Baghtru's doghma (fight for the sake of it, don't cower with range weapons or tricky tactics) or Illneval's doghma (the ultimate destruction comes from careful planning).

BUT... noone can tell someone how to play their own character. I'll just take pleasure in trying to convert good orcs to the cause. (Considering it's a bannable offence to simply just kill them all.)

i suggest reading races of fearun, cause sometimes i just find goblins and such with a strange version of goblin rp...its just my oppion and not anything i would force on anyone...just suggesting that some might be misinformed on what a fearun goblin is

Last edited by Gunz on Sat, Jan 02 2010, 4:22 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Aye, write up something on how Goblins act, how Orcs act, how Hobgoblins act, how Kobolds act, etc. And you can write up something on their typical faiths too.

I'll start with something on Kobolds:

Their patron god is Kurtulmak, but they don't always worship him. They sometimes worship Ibrandul and Tiamat (and other evil and neutral Dragon gods). I could see them logically worshiping Ubtao, Shar, Mask, Set, Sseth, Sebek and even Finder. Now, of course you can have your Kobold worship whoever, they're not stupid creatures, after all. It's just that those gods have plenty of connection to them because they're gods of scalykind, caverns (where they like to live) and sneaky trap related stuff.

Needless to say, Kobolds are usually evil. Lawful evil, to be exact. That's their natural tendency. Kinda like chaotic evil is to a Drow, chaotic good is to most Elven sub-races, Lawful Good is to most Dwarven sub-races and lawful evil is to Duergar. Good Kobolds are rare. Very rare. Because of their Lawful nature, they usually are pretty respectful of leader figures in their society.

Kobold -hate- Gnomes. Gnomes return that sentiment. It's a hatred that is deep. Garl Glittergold (patron of Gnomes) and Kurtulmak (patron of Kobolds) have a strong hatred for each other. In fact, they're kind of archenemies. So yes, they're enemy races. But, again, it isn't always true. There's always exceptions.

Kobolds are usually tribal creatures, like Goblins, Orcs (save for the overly warlike nature Orcs embrace), Hobgoblins, Bugbears and the like. Their tribes are large in numbers, many times.

Nudity is common place for Kobold tribes, it's not seen as sexual, shameful or offensive. It's simply a fact of life. But, they do wear cloths for rituals or when needed. While on the subject, mating is usually an impersonal act for them. They have sex to reproduce and under practical means rather than love and emotions. They don't usually keep monogamous relationships. Kobolds lay eggs too.

The larger of the tribes tend to have inner conflict which are settled with fights and splits within the tribe into two. Those fights usually aren't lethal though. Kobolds tend to take care not to kill each other. That allows them to be able to turn to each other in times of great need. A sort of kinship that shows when times get tough.

Kobold tribes place high value on trap making, magics, gems and expensive metals (jewelry, in other words).

Kobolds speak Draconic. That's their root language. Like Dwarven to a Dwarf, Hin to a Hin, Elven to an Elf and so on. They also tend to speak Undercommon, because of where they tend to live.

Kobolds are a hateful race. Very hateful. They pretty much hate every other race. Their hate is strongest for Gnomes though. Dragons are the only exception, who they see as kin, by blood relation. Kobolds think themselves, and are, a Dragon breed. They're -very- proud of that fact too.

Kobolds have Lycanthropic tendencies. They domesticated dire weasels a long time ago and Lycanthropy has become something that runs in some of their veins. It's not common for them to be were-dire weasels, but one in ten thousand is a Lycan of this type. It'd be cool to see one or two around! I have yet to see any on Amia. There's no were-weasel skin, but you can work something out if you get creative.

Okay, I'm done... Go find the rest yourselves! ::shakes fist::

Races of Faerun page 137

"The rare good or neutral aligned goblin character struggles to control this urge and usually wins out over it."

So, yeah, they're rare, but they do exist, according to your own source. Even if every single player character goblin was lawful good, they'd still be rare when NPCs figured into it.

And they're yellow, orange or red. Not green.

Playing a monster race on Amia is very difficult if you wish to actually RP one on Amia. To RP them as you suggested then the player will get no where with them, death would be at every turn. There are so few people here that play monster races that you just can’t have constant RP as a huge group as you do with the other races, so we have to bend the concept a great deal, mixing with the other races while attempting to still be in the realm of that monster race.

Attempting to be the evil, manipulative, opportunist, cowardly, greedy and annoying Goblin yet still be able to RP with others on Amia is very difficult to say the least. It has cost me allot in doing so and I still struggle on how far to go in one direction or the other, just so I can either be shunned away from almost all others RP or become more docile and ruin my own concept and my own RP. To totally go all out playing such monster races will find you alone most of the time and dead the rest, becoming banned from almost everywhere. Godo is supposed to be banned from Cordor, that one I do not really recognize since the offence of his banning was from OOC mechanics more then the RP. He is also banned from Bendir, that is through RP however and I understand that one. He is also supposed to be banned from Ultrinnan, again through RP but to me from being too much like a Goblin and unaccepted as such.

Do not attempt to say others do not RP monster races as they should be played until you are able to do so for a good length of time and you then understand the limitations of doing so.

Quote:

Godo is supposed to be banned from Cordor, that one I do not really recognize since the offence of his banning was from OOC mechanics more then the RP

If you are banned from Cordor and you continue to go there without alerting the DMs, you are metagaming the NPCs. I suggest you stop doing it, immediately.

A further explanation, on alignment qualifiers... an excerpt from the monster manual...

Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible or individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

Usually: The majority (more than 50%) of these creatures have the given alignment. This may be due to strong cultural influences, or it may be a legacy of the creatures' origin. For example, most elves inherited their CG alignment from their creator, the deity Corellon Larethian.

Often: the creature tends towards the given alignment, either by nature or nurture, but not strongly. A plurality (40-50%) of individuals have the given alignment, but exceptions are common.

Now, Goblins are 'Usually Neutral Evil'. That means, that, yes, the majority are NE, possibly due to nurture and culture, possibly due to nature and origin, probably due to both. However, exceptions do exist, and are not freak specimens, such as the exceptions which are listed as entirely possible in the 'Always' qualifier. It is also implied that they are not born with this alignment, as it doesn't have this note, which it has in the 'Always' qualifier.

Additionally, Orcs are 'Often Chaotic Evil', meaning that the majority of Orcs are not Chaotic Evil, but Chaotic Evil is the largest minority. 'Almost all Orcs are X alignment' cannot be said, since they vary greatly.

---

However, in Amia, this may be different, but I've seen no indicator of such, since, for example, Lawful Good Goblins are not banned, but frowned on, pretty much.

Talk to Galenson. He's probably the foremost expert on greenskin RP, given the amount of time he devoted to properly researching and rping his own Orog, & trying to create a greenskin faction.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Godo is supposed to be banned from Cordor, that one I do not really recognize since the offence of his banning was from OOC mechanics more then the RP

If you are banned from Cordor and you continue to go there without alerting the DMs, you are metagaming the NPCs. I suggest you stop doing it, immediately.

You know Tormak, as a DM I would have expected you to ask what was the OOC mechanics of the situation or at the least comment on the points I was making about RPing a monster race. Instead you decided to pick something out for your attack mentality. There is constant metagamming going on all over Amia, especially in Cordor and especially now that Cordor is a no PvP zone. Start looking around allot more and just leave me alone.

If you do not have something to contribute to the current discussion then I personally would appreciate not hearing your snide comments towards me or other players of Amia.

Thank you for your cooperation.

I'm not attacking you.

I'm not starting an argment.

I'm telling you that if you're banned from cordor (I don't care why.), and you go into Cordor without informing a DM, you are metagaming and breaking the rules. And I expect the rules to be followed.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

....i would just like to suggest that goblins and orcs read up on greenskins..that is all

That sounds nice and arrogant when you make a post saying "read up on this stuff because you don't know how to play them ... but I'm not going to give you any more information, nor any links".

That said, there's already a brilliant thread on kobolds, so goblins (from the MM):

Quote:

This little humanoid has a flat face, broad nose, pointed ears, wide mouth, and small, sharp fangs. It walks upright, but its arms hang down almost to its knees.

Goblins are small humanoids that many consider little more than a nuisance. However, if they are unchecked, their great numbers, rapid reproduction, and evil disposition enable them to overrun and despoil civilised areas.
A goblin stands 3 to 3-1/2 feet tall and weigh 40 to 45 pounds. Its eyes are usually dull and glazed, varying in colour from red to yellow. A goblin's skin colour ranges from yellow through any shade of orange to deep red; usually all members of a single tribe are the same colour. Goblins wear clothing of dark leather, tending towards drab, soiled-looking colours.
Goblins speak Goblin; those with Intelligence scores of 12 or higher also speak Common.
Most goblins encountered outside their homes are warriors

I already posted the alignment part from the stat block and the glossary of the same book, yes, and that also elaborates my note on their skin colour, which isn't green.

On Orcs again, between 40 and 50% of Orcs are Chaotic Evil, since they are listed as 'Often Chaotic Evil'.

Dwarves, to provide a contrast, are 'Often Lawful Good'... so very nearly the same amount of Dwarves deviate from their stereotypical alignment as Orcs. The fact that Dwarves even have a Prestige Class in Races of Faerun which bars their statblock alignment shows that exceptions are common with Dwarves, and I now presume Orcs too.

They also have deities which allow for Chaotic Neutral Clerics. This is a very extreme deviation from the norm. One more step (to Chaotic Evil), and the character would be at the polar opposite of the statblock alignment. And this is a cleric of a Dwarven God... not just some apathetic layperson when it comes to matters of ethics, morality and philosophy.

EDIT: In fact, Abbathor is a Neutral Evil Dwarven God, allowing for Chaotic Evil clerics... the polar opposite of the stereotypical LG Dwarf.

I imagine there are as many neutral Orcs as there are neutral Dwarves, roughly, and as many Lawful Orcs as there are Chaotic Dwarves.

More on Goblins (MM):

Quote:

Combat

Being bullied by bigger, stronger creatures has taught goblins to exploit what few advantages they have: sheer numbers and malicious ingenuity. The concept of a fair fight is meaningless in their society. They favour ambushes, overwhelming odds, dirty tricks, and any other edge they can devise.

Goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them. With proper supervision, though, they can implement reasonably complex plans, and in such circumstances their numbers can be a deadly advantage.

[...]

Goblin Society

Goblins are tribal. Their leaders are generally the biggest, strongest, or sometimes the smartest of the group. They have almost no concept of privacy, living and sleeping in large common areas; only the leaders live separately. Goblins survive by raiding and stealing (preferably from those who cannot defend themselves easily), sneaking into lairs, villages and
even towns by night to take what they can. They are not above waylaying travellers on the road or in the forests and stripping them of all possessions, up to and including the clothes on their backs. Goblins sometimes capture slaves to perform hard labour in their tribe's lair or compound.

These creatures live wherever they can, from dank caves to dismal ruins, and their lairs are always smelly and filthy due to an utter lack of sanitation. Goblins often settle near civilised areas t raid for food, livestock, tools, weapons, and supplies. Once a tribe has despoiled a locale, it simply packs up and moves on to the next convenient area. Hobgoblins and bugbears are sometimes found in the company of goblin tribes, usually as bullying leaders. Some goblin tribes form alliances with worgs, which carry them into combat.

Goblin bands and tribes have noncombatant young equal in number to the adults.
The chief goblin deity is Maglubiyet, who urges his worshippers to expand their numbers and overwhelm their competitors.

Note, I'm retyping this from scratch, (just like the last) so I really don't give a damn about typos or that I spell things correctly.

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

I imagine there are as many neutral Orcs as there are neutral Dwarves, roughly, and as many Lawful Orcs as there are Chaotic Dwarves.

There's only one subrace of orcs that could pull off a Lawful alignment and those are the Orogs. The reason behind that is that they are an industrial race, incredibly good at mining and smithing and have to compete with Duergar and Drow for territory. They are still loyal servants of Gruumsh however (or one of Gruumsh's serving deities, Illneval and Shargaas come to mind) which still pulls them back to the evil spectrum of things.

I won't deny a possibility for neutral aligned orcs either, Luthic and Malar have the ability to support them. Due to orcish society though (which is patriarchal, violent and driven by the Gruumsh clergy) these "neutrals" would not only be rare, they would be eliminated in a survival of the fittest way of life. Unlike Drow who have Eilistraee, there's no avenue of escape for an Orc. If it's not the orcs that kill him/her, its the humans or the elves or the dwarves who hate the orcs as much as the orcs hate everyone else.

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

....i would just like to suggest that goblins and orcs read up on greenskins..that is all

That sounds nice and arrogant when you make a post saying "read up on this stuff because you don't know how to play them ... but I'm not going to give you any more information, nor any links".

[/quote]
my problem is not with peoples rp..my problem is with me being attacked oocly as being a bad paladin or any other class for that matter, and being evil for open hostility towards goblins and orcs, i suggest people read up on goblins orcs and whatever, from whatever source you like....just so i dont have to argue half the times i talk none chalant about killing goblins and shunning them from conversations...guess what your race is inheretly evil, most of you are evil, its extremely rare you are anything but evil, same goes of orcs, hobgoblins orogs, oggrilions and so forth, and 40-50 percent might only be chaotic evil...then you would have another 40-50 percent who are Neutral evil..i honerstly belive that is how the racial tendensies for goblinoids and orcs are...exchange chaotic evil with lawfull evil according to race...deviants in these races are far rarer than drow deviants, because they dont have devine support. And the reputation and actions of the greenskin races, clearly justifies hostile attention, because they are monsters with a reputation for mass murders...sure there might be one or two, but its not how the world sees it.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

....i would just like to suggest that goblins and orcs read up on greenskins..that is all

That sounds nice and arrogant when you make a post saying "read up on this stuff because you don't know how to play them ... but I'm not going to give you any more information, nor any links".

my problem is not with peoples rp..my problem is with me being attacked oocly as being a bad paladin or any other class for that matter, and being evil for open hostility towards goblins and orcs, i suggest people read up on goblins orcs and whatever, from whatever source you like....just so i dont have to argue half the times i talk none chalant about killing goblins and shunning them from conversations...guess what your race is inheretly evil, most of you are evil, its extremely rare you are anything but evil, same goes of orcs, hobgoblins orogs, oggrilions and so forth, and 40-50 percent might only be chaotic evil...then you would have another 40-50 percent who are Neutral evil..i honerstly belive that is how the racial tendensies for goblinoids and orcs are...exchange chaotic evil with lawfull evil according to race...deviants in these races are far rarer than drow deviants, because they dont have devine support. And the reputation and actions of the greenskin races, clearly justifies hostile attention, because they are monsters with a reputation for mass murders...sure there might be one or two, but its not how the world sees it.

So respond with something more constructive than "Learn to play. That is all"

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

....i would just like to suggest that goblins and orcs read up on greenskins..that is all

That sounds nice and arrogant when you make a post saying "read up on this stuff because you don't know how to play them ... but I'm not going to give you any more information, nor any links".

my problem is not with peoples rp..my problem is with me being attacked oocly as being a bad paladin or any other class for that matter, and being evil for open hostility towards goblins and orcs, i suggest people read up on goblins orcs and whatever, from whatever source you like....just so i dont have to argue half the times i talk none chalant about killing goblins and shunning them from conversations...guess what your race is inheretly evil, most of you are evil, its extremely rare you are anything but evil, same goes of orcs, hobgoblins orogs, oggrilions and so forth, and 40-50 percent might only be chaotic evil...then you would have another 40-50 percent who are Neutral evil..i honerstly belive that is how the racial tendensies for goblinoids and orcs are...exchange chaotic evil with lawfull evil according to race...deviants in these races are far rarer than drow deviants, because they dont have devine support. And the reputation and actions of the greenskin races, clearly justifies hostile attention, because they are monsters with a reputation for mass murders...sure there might be one or two, but its not how the world sees it.

So respond with something more constructive than "Learn to play. That is all"

after 3 of the same arguements in the same day, you get slightly annoyed...hells one of them threatened me to get me fallen by a dm if i didnt treat his goblin like it was a cuddly halfling....It was a badly formed first post...i agree...but its born out of frustation of people who play dark races and demands to get hugs and love in return

I wasn't criticising your reasons or intentions, merely your approach. That first post could have been a lot more helpful - you could have given information that you thought others should learn, posted links, but instead you opted for (as Lally put it) "L2P".

Yurell wrote:

I wasn't criticising your reasons or intentions, merely your approach. That first post could have been a lot more helpful - you could have given information that you thought others should learn, posted links, but instead you opted for (as Lally put it) "L2P".

changed the first post

Galenson wrote:

And here I was thinking this thread was going to be a good one.

Playing a Gruumsh worshipper is easier said then done just to let you know.

just tripped over this one, yes you follow a god who DEMANDS uneding wars on elves and humans, i would imagin that it is a problem.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Galenson wrote:

And here I was thinking this thread was going to be a good one.

Playing a Gruumsh worshipper is easier said then done just to let you know.

just tripped over this one, yes you follow a god who DEMANDS uneding wars on elves and humans, i would imagin that it is a problem.

The entire orc pantheon is CE or NE, according to Faiths and Pantheons 3rd ed

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Galenson wrote:

And here I was thinking this thread was going to be a good one.

Playing a Gruumsh worshipper is easier said then done just to let you know.

just tripped over this one, yes you follow a god who DEMANDS uneding wars on elves and humans, i would imagin that it is a problem.

The entire orc pantheon is CE or NE, according to Faiths and Pantheons 3rd ed

yea...playing a worshipper of either of the gods, would give you a strait way to a short drop and a sudden stop...they are probably the most extreme of all the gods, its not surposed to be easy..its surposed to be hard...very hard

Galenson wrote:

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

I imagine there are as many neutral Orcs as there are neutral Dwarves, roughly, and as many Lawful Orcs as there are Chaotic Dwarves.

There's only one subrace of orcs that could pull off a Lawful alignment and those are the Orogs. The reason behind that is that they are an industrial race, incredibly good at mining and smithing and have to compete with Duergar and Drow for territory. They are still loyal servants of Gruumsh however (or one of Gruumsh's serving deities, Illneval and Shargaas come to mind) which still pulls them back to the evil spectrum of things.

I won't deny a possibility for neutral aligned orcs either, Luthic and Malar have the ability to support them. Due to orcish society though (which is patriarchal, violent and driven by the Gruumsh clergy) these "neutrals" would not only be rare, they would be eliminated in a survival of the fittest way of life. Unlike Drow who have Eilistraee, there's no avenue of escape for an Orc. If it's not the orcs that kill him/her, its the humans or the elves or the dwarves who hate the orcs as much as the orcs hate everyone else.

A normal Orc can very easily be Lawful and not bring down the ire of his tribe, with some creativity. The Warlord's enforcer or bodyguard, for example, could easily be lawful. A cleric of Luthic who guards the young of the tribe could be lawful.

The main reason that there must be a large amount of either lawful or non-evil orcs is that only 40-50% of Orcs are CE... and that is the largest minority. That means the rest must be split between at least two alignments, most likely more (if it was only one other alignment, they would be listed as that alignment instead of CE). Some extrapolation would suggest that NE and maybe CN were roughly as common... showing that non-evil Orcs are a reasonable concept according to the statblock. If there aren't as many non-evil Orcs... there must be lawful Orcs, or the statblock would say 'Usually CE' instead of 'Often CE'.

Goblins, unlike Orcs, more commonly stick to NE, and the non-NE ones likely go towards LE and CE, however, as Races of Faerun shows, there is the opportunity for the rare neutral or good goblin.

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

Galenson wrote:

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

I imagine there are as many neutral Orcs as there are neutral Dwarves, roughly, and as many Lawful Orcs as there are Chaotic Dwarves.

There's only one subrace of orcs that could pull off a Lawful alignment and those are the Orogs. The reason behind that is that they are an industrial race, incredibly good at mining and smithing and have to compete with Duergar and Drow for territory. They are still loyal servants of Gruumsh however (or one of Gruumsh's serving deities, Illneval and Shargaas come to mind) which still pulls them back to the evil spectrum of things.

I won't deny a possibility for neutral aligned orcs either, Luthic and Malar have the ability to support them. Due to orcish society though (which is patriarchal, violent and driven by the Gruumsh clergy) these "neutrals" would not only be rare, they would be eliminated in a survival of the fittest way of life. Unlike Drow who have Eilistraee, there's no avenue of escape for an Orc. If it's not the orcs that kill him/her, its the humans or the elves or the dwarves who hate the orcs as much as the orcs hate everyone else.

A normal Orc can very easily be Lawful and not bring down the ire of his tribe, with some creativity. The Warlord's enforcer or bodyguard, for example, could easily be lawful. A cleric of Luthic who guards the young of the tribe could be lawful.

The main reason that there must be a large amount of either lawful or non-evil orcs is that only 40-50% of Orcs are CE... and that is the largest minority. That means the rest must be split between at least two alignments, most likely more (if it was only one other alignment, they would be listed as that alignment instead of CE). Some extrapolation would suggest that NE and maybe CN were roughly as common... showing that non-evil Orcs are a reasonable concept according to the statblock. If there aren't as many non-evil Orcs... there must be lawful Orcs, or the statblock would say 'Usually CE' instead of 'Often CE'.

Goblins, unlike Orcs, more commonly stick to NE, and the non-NE ones likely go towards LE and CE, however, as Races of Faerun shows, there is the opportunity for the rare neutral or good goblin.

Errr. I'd like to see where you got these stats from. 40-50% of orcs are CE? Um, no. I think you may be getting Half-Orcs and Orc's mixed up. Orc's are mostly all CE. Possibly 10% being other, and that 10% is probably the few Orogs that are, and the scattered remanents of the Grey Orc army. But 40-50%, don't think so. Now if you mean on Amia, well that could be anything as Amia has a bit of a rep for PC characters going against the grain of racial stereotypes. CE doesn't mean homicidal murdering manaic who does stupid things. Obould is CE, his entire empie was CE. He was smart, calculated, but a murdering bastard.

Edit: And we are talking a race that breed like flies here. These guys do nothing much other then kill, eat and fuck. So 10% out of their race is probably quite a lot in the grand scheme of things.

In Cordor, Regional History, Dev Disco wrote:

Strangely enough, more boats arrived on the docks in the coming years. All bearing refugees, outcasts and misfits that somehow fit into the populace in one way or another (the ones that were too much trouble were regularly refused passage on the islands and turned away). This integration lead to a rather widespread acceptance of many varied races within Cordor. To this day, it is not unusual for a Cordorian to regard a drow, stray kobold or goblin with a degree of tolerance (providing of course, they present no sign of threat or hostility).

Link

So yeah, IC, there is an excuse for this tolerant attitude toward the uglies, and even to expect that tolerance of others. (However, I believe the food chain of awesomeness for those races proceeds thusly: evil > good > evul.)

Remember though these are all PCs you're complaining about. By definition PCs are unusual fellows. While 40-50% of orcish society might be chaotic evil, PCs will not necessarily fall within that percentage. More often than not, people will choose to try to be unique (whether or not they succeed is irrelevant, as by the time that question can be asked the attempt has already been made).

Selvec Darkon wrote:

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

Galenson wrote:

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

I imagine there are as many neutral Orcs as there are neutral Dwarves, roughly, and as many Lawful Orcs as there are Chaotic Dwarves.

There's only one subrace of orcs that could pull off a Lawful alignment and those are the Orogs. The reason behind that is that they are an industrial race, incredibly good at mining and smithing and have to compete with Duergar and Drow for territory. They are still loyal servants of Gruumsh however (or one of Gruumsh's serving deities, Illneval and Shargaas come to mind) which still pulls them back to the evil spectrum of things.

I won't deny a possibility for neutral aligned orcs either, Luthic and Malar have the ability to support them. Due to orcish society though (which is patriarchal, violent and driven by the Gruumsh clergy) these "neutrals" would not only be rare, they would be eliminated in a survival of the fittest way of life. Unlike Drow who have Eilistraee, there's no avenue of escape for an Orc. If it's not the orcs that kill him/her, its the humans or the elves or the dwarves who hate the orcs as much as the orcs hate everyone else.

A normal Orc can very easily be Lawful and not bring down the ire of his tribe, with some creativity. The Warlord's enforcer or bodyguard, for example, could easily be lawful. A cleric of Luthic who guards the young of the tribe could be lawful.

The main reason that there must be a large amount of either lawful or non-evil orcs is that only 40-50% of Orcs are CE... and that is the largest minority. That means the rest must be split between at least two alignments, most likely more (if it was only one other alignment, they would be listed as that alignment instead of CE). Some extrapolation would suggest that NE and maybe CN were roughly as common... showing that non-evil Orcs are a reasonable concept according to the statblock. If there aren't as many non-evil Orcs... there must be lawful Orcs, or the statblock would say 'Usually CE' instead of 'Often CE'.

Goblins, unlike Orcs, more commonly stick to NE, and the non-NE ones likely go towards LE and CE, however, as Races of Faerun shows, there is the opportunity for the rare neutral or good goblin.

Errr. I'd like to see where you got these stats from. 40-50% of orcs are CE? Um, no. I think you may be getting Half-Orcs and Orc's mixed up. Orc's are mostly all CE. Possibly 10% being other, and that 10% is probably the few Orogs that are, and the scattered remanents of the Grey Orc army. But 40-50%, don't think so. Now if you mean on Amia, well that could be anything as Amia has a bit of a rep for PC characters going against the grain of racial stereotypes. CE doesn't mean homicidal murdering manaic who does stupid things. Obould is CE, his entire empie was CE. He was smart, calculated, but a murdering bastard.

Edit: And we are talking a race that breed like flies here. These guys do nothing much other then kill, eat and (censored). So 10% out of their race is probably quite a lot in the grand scheme of things.

The stats are Monster Manual. Orcs are listed as 'Often CE'.

The Glossary in said book says 'Often' means 40-50%.

This does not include subraces, as they have separate statblocks. If a majority of Orcs were CE, it would say so in the Monster Manual. It specifically states otherwise. If the majority of Orcs were CE, it would say 'Usually CE' or 'Always CE'. As it stands, a very large proportion are CE (enough to elect a leader in any democracy!

), but not a majority.

I'd appreciate people telling me to 'Read the books and learn to RP' to become more familiar with the sources themselves before making blanket statements.

The inclination to turn the majority of races into two-dimensional stereotypes gets boring, to be honest. Sure, stereotypes are useful, but not every Orc is a raging barbarian lunatic. Saintly Orc paladins would be amongst the most unlikely things in the Realms, but a reliable Orc mercenary or guard wouldn't be too far a stretch, for instance.

First, monster manual is DnD, thus Greyhawk. So the stats may be very different for Forgotten Realms, where Gruumsh is the patron orc god and is chaotic evil.

Second, it says "Often Chaotic Evil" no percentage stats. So "Often Chaotic Evil" sounds like over 80% to me.

Edit: The exact words from the glossary are "A pluralilty of (40-50%) have the given alignment, but exceptions are common". Course thats not taking into account that to survive in orcish culture, being LE is probably not going to cut it. So take it for what you will.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

First, monster manual is DnD, thus Greyhawk. So the stats may be very different for Forgotten Realms, where Gruumsh is the patron orc god and is chaotic evil.

Second, it says "Often Chaotic Evil" no percentage stats. So "Often Chaotic Evil" sounds like over 80% to me.

If FR changes the stats, it lets us know. In the case of Orcs and Goblins, it doesn't. And Gruumsh is the patron in both settings, and in both settings, can support CN clerics.

Often is 40-50%. It explicitly explains that in the glossary when explaining qualifiers. I shall again quote the passage, which I suggest you read:

"Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible or individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

Usually: The majority (more than 50%) of these creatures have the given alignment. This may be due to strong cultural influences, or it may be a legacy of the creatures' origin. For example, most elves inherited their CG alignment from their creator, the deity Corellon Larethian.

Often: the creature tends towards the given alignment, either by nature or nurture, but not strongly. A plurality (40-50%) of individuals have the given alignment, but exceptions are common."

*Sigh*

I editted mate. Wish people would wait like a couple of minutes before replying. In the case of orcs in general, it doesn't say much at all. Some of the information they didn't include would be a great boon to orc players. Lots of information simply isn't there at all, not sure if it exists or not. Hell some of the stuff I've seen in WOTC's books contradict's itself. So eh.

A plurality of those living would be expected. If all the good ones were dead from the age of two, no point statting them. There is also no indication that a LE cleric of Luthic, performing needed services for the tribe, would be killed simply because the others are Chaotic.

So... where do I found hoards of Lawful Good Orcs, which are supposedly a quite common exception?

I didn't say they would be killed because the others are chaotic. I said that an LE orc may not cut it in orcish culture. Which means, it simply may not make it through what needs to be done. A lot of things in orc culture seem pretty damned brutal. Sure if they were a cleric they may make it. But I find it hard to believe that 50% of the orcish race are clerics to other gods.

Mr Mago wrote:

So... where do I found hoards of Lawful Good Orcs, which are supposedly a quite common exception?

Nothing states that such are common, and are most likely extremely rare. A large amount, however, are likely CN and NE. A small amount, but largely noticeable, would be LE. The other alignments would be very rare, but very far from impossible.

The only truth we can get from the statblock, however is that there are at least two alignments other than CE which are common amongst Orcs, probably more. Logic would suggest NE and CN.

@ Selvec

A lawful Orc could very easily survive with some strength. He'd be more reliable than the others, but could rely on discipline and other strengths. Sure, his alignment would be different from the others, but he'd still be an Orc. Big, strong, and mean. That'd be enough to get them through. An LE Orc, cruel and nasty, could potentially survive easier than a CN Orc.

Even weaker Orcs could be Lawful, the slavering hordes of stronger leaders could begin to appreciate the order brought about by an iron fist. Orcs led by Hobgoblins (Hobgoblins often lead Orc tribes according to the MM) could be forced into a Lawful mold, for instance, having discipline beat into them.

Also, Orc culture is pretty varied, an Orc that didn't like it could get up and leave and start his own tribe. They're disorganised, so splinter tribes seem very possible.

Somehow, all the Lawful Good Orcs in Faerûn managed to end up in Cordor.

As usual.

Well, there is a relatively orderly and stable kingdom in the North, ruled by Obould Many-Arrows. But its inhabitants are mostly typical orcs, simply cowed and controlled by the powerful and charismatic king. Nevertheless, it proves orcs are capable of social order if the circumstances are favorable.

Not to say such good orcs aren't lame. Luckily, it's not an available race on Amia, apart from Orogs.

Mr Mago wrote:

Somehow, all the Lawful Good Orcs in Faerûn managed to end up in Cordor.

As usual.

LOL, agreed. A good point well-made.

However, if we're going to start complaining about LG Orcs, we should, by all rights, also complain about LE Elves and CE Dwarves, in my opinion.

It's easy for people to say 'X race is always evil, end of story', but it is rare for anyone to say 'X race is always good, end of story'.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, there is a relatively orderly and stable kingdom in the North, ruled by Obould Many-Arrows. But its inhabitants are mostly typical orcs, simply cowed and controlled by the powerful and charismatic king. Nevertheless, it proves orcs are capable of social order if the circumstances are favorable.

Not to say such good orcs aren't lame. Luckily, it's not an available race on Amia, apart from Orogs.

And if you read the early novels on him, though you have to put up with Drizzt, you find out he didn't do it in an orderly manner. He had to kill a lot of people to get where he was. He is entirely fierce, destructive, and cruel.

@Blunt: I think you wrong about the LE thing. Alignment generally dictates the extent someone is going to go before finding things to hard. Orc's that generally don't like how things are going because they dislike the lack of order are generally considered weak. Orc culture seemingly is very much a culling of the weak. So any orc seemingly weak would die. Splinter tribes wouldn't be allowed to happen as it's a rival, and they would be killed before it got off it's feet.

When I say that orcs are mostly CE, I don't say it because of their alignment, I say it because it's how orc culture is. It's very CE. Kill or be killed. Lead by strength or die. Destroy your enemies, torture the weaker races. Etc etc. It's a very Chaotic Evil culture, and thats just looking at the books. The mindset of a being would need to be CE to get through a lot of it, unless they become a cleric of another god, and even then it brings up the fact that 50% of a race isn't going to be clerics. It seemingly feels like WOTC got it wrong, espically from the novels point of view.

Edit: Your also wrong about it being rare that people say "X race is always good" Aasimar's are always pinned with that label. Its been a matter of discussion on these forums many times.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Well, there is a relatively orderly and stable kingdom in the North, ruled by Obould Many-Arrows. But its inhabitants are mostly typical orcs, simply cowed and controlled by the powerful and charismatic king. Nevertheless, it proves orcs are capable of social order if the circumstances are favorable.

Not to say such good orcs aren't lame. Luckily, it's not an available race on Amia, apart from Orogs.

And if you read the early novels on him, though you have to put up with Drizzt, you find out he didn't do it in an orderly manner. He had to kill a lot of people to get where he was. He is entirely fierce, destructive, and cruel.

@Blunt: I think you wrong about the LE thing. Alignment generally dictates the extent someone is going to go before finding things to hard. Orc's that generally don't like how things are going because they dislike the lack of order are generally considered weak. Orc culture seemingly is very much a culling of the weak. So any orc seemingly weak would die. Splinter tribes wouldn't be allowed to happen as it's a rival, and they would be killed before it got off it's feet.

When I say that orcs are mostly CE, I don't say it because of their alignment, I say it because it's how orc culture is. It's very CE. Kill or be killed. Lead by strength or die. Destroy your enemies, torture the weaker races. Etc etc. It's a very Chaotic Evil culture, and thats just looking at the books. The mindset of a being would need to be CE to get through a lot of it, unless they become a cleric of another god, and even then it brings up the fact that 50% of a race isn't going to be clerics. It seemingly feels like WOTC got it wrong, espically from the novels point of view.

Edit: Your also wrong about it being rare that people say "X race is always good" Aasimar's are always pinned with that label. Its been a matter of discussion on these forums many times.

I was referring to Dwarves and Elves for a reason, as they are listed as 'Often X alignment' just like Orcs. If Orcs can't be good, Dwarves and Elves can't be evil, is my somewhat inarticulate position.

Orcs can cope with order though, if bullied into it. They respect strength as much as disorder. If a strong, lawful leader took leadership of a tribe, he could bully order into the others. Also, a large proportion of Orc females, largely seen as 'prized possessions or chattels' (Monster Manual), could theoretically accept such a position and be lawful in alignment.

Also, LE tribes could still cull the weak... but would be more likely to have an organised system for doing so, with set parameters for determining who gets culled.

Regarding Clerics, it's possible for a LG Orc to follow Gruumsh, so long as he doesn't cast divine spells, having a class such as 'fighter'. Luthic, for instance, can have LE clerics... but that doesn't mean that they're the only LE orcs.

moral of the thread: lots of people on amia cringe at the RP of a happy-go-lucky race that is supposed to be evil (kobbos, gobbos, orcs, drow, duergar, orogs, hobgoblins, ogrillions , tiefers, snow elves, half drow).

They reverse the stereotypes and make the opposite true. e.g. Kobolds are no longer sly and cunning, but hard working and prosperous. Blech. Goblins are cute little pets. Blech. Smart orcs make me cry. They have -2 int and cha for a reason.

We like to RP our stereotypes. Racism = conflict = RP without gigglehuggles

blackvswhite wrote:

moral of the thread: lots of people on amia cringe at the RP of a happy-go-lucky race that is supposed to be evil (kobbos, gobbos, orcs, drow, duergar, orogs, hobgoblins, ogrillions , tiefers, snow elves, half drow).

They reverse the stereotypes and make the opposite true. e.g. Kobolds are no longer sly and cunning, but hard working and prosperous. Blech. Goblins are cute little pets. Blech. Smart orcs make me cry. They have -2 int and cha for a reason.

We like to RP our stereotypes. Racism = conflict = RP without gigglehuggles

Well, Kobolds are hard-working, hence the +2 to Profession(miner), but that may just be pedantry on my part.

Smart Orcs are uncommon, but possible. It's possible for a level 1 Orc to have 16 INT. Of course, most players wouldn't do that, unless for RP reasons, since it's mechanically more powerful to go for a 20 INT Sun Elf or something.

I think the problem is that the unusual has become the rule. How to prevent that, I do not know, however. Make CE Dwarves and LG Orcs request only, perhaps? Or is that too limiting?

When you restrict someone's freedom, you also relieve them of responsibility. It is not worth it.

Exceptions are possible. We expect you to be responsible enough to use them in moderation and improve the atmosphere of the server. If you don't, that's you failing your responsibilities.

Last edited by Gunz on Sat, Jan 02 2010, 21:43 PM, edited 1 time in total.

You have to remember that all these "Lawful Good Orcs" you're talking about are really actually Half Orcs. Orcs are a platinum coin race here. It's tons more believable and likely that Half Orcs would be lawful and/or good. They have Human blood, after all.

Likewise, a Half-Orc would be more believable as more intelligent than their Orc cousin. The Human blood can very well have had the upper hand there.

As for CE Dwarves, Abbathor. Need I say more? It's possible, just not likely.

What he said

greenskins

Who is online