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Gers
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 Posted: Fri, Jan 01 2010, 20:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA
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QPR wrote: I have some questions about sorcerers: They still do research, right? The NwN description says they have no books, no theories, no mentors, but this can't relly be the fact, right? They would need to study something to develop their abilities I am guessing, no? To my knowledge a sorcerer's power is a direct manifestation of their magical ancestry. They get better with practice, not study. QPR wrote: And aside from dragon blood, where else can the magical power of sorcerers come from? Pacts with spirits generations before? Other mythical creatures? Or just pure accident?
Fey blood is a source I know for sure, as is elven lineage, but lineage shared with just about any creature that has a level of innate magical ability, perhaps.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Jan 01 2010, 20:14 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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I guess it depends. Sorcerers do not need spellbooks. Those who take Spellcraft certainly get some training, though.
Generally, sorcerers seem to be schooled by a mentor who teaches them to better control and refine their powers. But I doubt it's necessary. One sorcerer (apprentice at Blackstaff tower and the next Blackstaff) is in fact portrayed as casting magic by recalling specific scents. The memory of the smell of spring flowers manifests as a spell. This is refined in practice and study, but the potentially is theoretically there.
I'd go with Gers's idea about their ancestry: anything with innate magical ability, probably. Or magical accidents. I think it's a fair guess to say most people could theoretically have been born sorcerer, even if it was extremely unlikely in most cases. There's enough diluted, millenia old magic in Faerûnian bloodlines, I guess.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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gorgometh
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Posted: Fri, Jan 01 2010, 20:25 PM |
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Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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This is something I have been curious about as well. I just never got around to asking. Thanks for those answers!
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Gunz
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Posted: Fri, Jan 01 2010, 20:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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The Cobbit wrote: Question concerning evil monk orders. Those that I know of:
Order of the Iron Gauntlet (Bane)
Disciples of the Salamander (Kossuth)
Disciples of the White Rod (Loviatar)
Order of the Dark Moon (Shar)
Serpent Guards (Tiamat)
Order of the Long Death (Velsharoon)
Are there any other evil-type orders besides these?
I thought at one time that there was one tied to Talona, or was I just imagining that?
For Orc gods:
Order of Ruinclaws (Luthic)
Brotherhoodof the Scarlet Scourge (Yurtrus)
Also, the Order of the Long Death isn't specific to Velsharoons faith. There are Cyricists, Jergalites probably even some evil Kelemvorites, Kiaransaleeites, evil Urogalanites, ex-Myrkulites and maybe even Bhaal cultists. What I'm getting at is that it's open to anyone. It's an order devoted to the portfolio of death and not really concerned with who holds it at any given time. So, worshipers of deities of death, undeath, maybe those devoted to murder deities and such too and those who don't have faith and just have a sick fascination with death, dieing and killing.
The Old Order, being neutral, takes good and evil people. So, they're a neutral order, but evils can and do join. But it's rare. They too are a deity-less order. People of all kinds of faiths and of no faith join.
Keep in mind that these are only well known orders. There are sure to be tons of lesser known orders out there. There's a list on Candlekeep of some orders the people that run that place came up with for immersion. I would call these "lesser known" since they aren't exactly talked about in any official books or anything.
Order of Cold Frost (Auril)
Order of Magimonks (Azuth)
Order of Strifehands (Bane)
Order of Mind Monks (Deep Duerra)
Order of Horde Makers (Ilneval)
Order of Everflame (Kossuth)
Order of Shock and Pain (Loviatar)
Order of Shadows (Mask)
Order of Pawns (The Red Knight)
Order of Darkness (Shar)
Order of Undead Monks (Velsharoon)
Order of the Rotting Ones (Yurtus)
Talona you say? None that that I've ever found in lore books and nothing in the Candlekeep list (I listed all the LE ones). But you can make up your own. Say, The Order of Plagues or something, whatever you want to call it.
Don't be afraid to start your own order though. 
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Fri, Jan 01 2010, 22:18 PM |
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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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IronAngel wrote: I guess it depends. Sorcerers do not need spellbooks. Those who take Spellcraft certainly get some training, though.
Generally, sorcerers seem to be schooled by a mentor who teaches them to better control and refine their powers. But I doubt it's necessary. One sorcerer (apprentice at Blackstaff tower and the next Blackstaff) is in fact portrayed as casting magic by recalling specific scents. The memory of the smell of spring flowers manifests as a spell. This is refined in practice and study, but the potentially is theoretically there.
I'd go with Gers's idea about their ancestry: anything with innate magical ability, probably. Or magical accidents. I think it's a fair guess to say most people could theoretically have been born sorcerer, even if it was extremely unlikely in most cases. There's enough diluted, millenia old magic in Faerûnian bloodlines, I guess.
One IC theory atleast is since the Weave supposedly runs through all Toril, certain sentient beings form "knots" in the tapestry, just as certain gems, items, and etc do. Thus, sorcerers are always in connection with the Weave and can use it as easily as any of their limbs, although refining the technique sometimes takes a good while.(Like learning how to walk again after a serious accident). So the same way fae, dragons, and other magical beings are born into their magical powers, the same way some humanoids can, both by lineage and sometimes just randomness.
The other part of this theory is that Wizards "tap" into the Weave by memorizing the actual mechanics of it. But never truly gain the innate "at oneness" with it that sorcerers do until the upper echelon of wizardry. As in the more a wizard taps into the Weave(higher level and practice), the more of a magical being they become just from the magical "residue" of close association. Thus, sometimes sorcerers are born to unions of wizards, as the practiced connection to the Weave is passed as a hereditary trait to the child.
That reminds me, I need to have Beldor write all of this down and submit it to that IC lore/history/theory thread. >_>
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Fri, Jan 01 2010, 22:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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Pathfinder System, that some call DnD 3.75, has a nice concept about Sorcerers.
Here, QPR, you can find some ideas that explain where could come the power from a sorcerer: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/sorcerer.
Rules-wise I am not sure it applies to Amia, but I believe that concept-wise, it can still be applied.
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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The Cobbit
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Posted: Fri, Jan 01 2010, 23:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Location: Satellite Of Love
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o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote: *Lots of helpful words*
Good deal, thanks. Helped me out and gave me a few good ideas.
_________________
I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered on the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sat, Jan 02 2010, 4:13 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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BlackDahlya wrote: Pathfinder System, that some call DnD 3.75, has a nice concept about Sorcerers. Here, QPR, you can find some ideas that explain where could come the power from a sorcerer: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/sorcerer. Rules-wise I am not sure it applies to Amia, but I believe that concept-wise, it can still be applied. I really like that link, Dahlya.  Pathfinder really brings back the whole feeling that sorcerers are magical beings once they reach epicness. I especially like the Arcane and Destined flavors.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jan 02 2010, 4:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Mind that nothing in Pathfinder is canon unless we say so.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sat, Jan 02 2010, 6:42 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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'Course. Doesn't make it any less neat of a method of handling sorcs though. 
While we're on the topic, Shadow Variants: The Amian explanation for the series is semi-real spells made from a mixture of both Weave and "Shadow Stuff" from the Plane of Shadow, correct? How exactly is this explained for sorcerers using this spell IC? Does the sorc just learn the general technique of creating spells from the shadow-stuff or is it an actual spell that allows for the creation of a few specific spells?
In addition, Shadow Variants of Cone of Cold and Fireball and other destructive spells: when cast upon inanimate objects do they still retain like 4/5's of their power, or do they not work at all, given it says here that objects automatically make the save against this spell. The whole thing is quite confusing. And lastly, the Shadow summoned by the series of variants; outsider, random illusion-creature, or the naturally occuring undead? And could one RP making illusions of people and objects through this summoning?....*head hurts*
Edit: Yeah, I know the SRD entry and the NWN spell are two very different things, but it's the closest thing to lore I could find.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Jan 02 2010, 10:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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PHB:
Quote: You tap energy [or "use material", depending on what school] from the lane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version [of the spell]
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 4:06 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Still, it's kinda confusing when you try to think "Is it a technique or an actual spell?". I'm probably just thinking about it too much, as I often do when it comes to stuff with spells.
On another spell note, how much do we really honor the whole "most arcane spells have a material component" on Amia? Is our policy to disregard that bit of PnP spell mechanics in all ways except for the spells that call for it mechancially(TS and IGMS)? I personally find the whole thing...*ahem* less-than-smart for all but a few spells. Especially in the case of sorcerers. They're supposed to innately have a contact to magic just like the magical creatures they descend from, but yet to unleash that magic they need a small wooden replica of an archery target and a handful of bat crap? You don't see a white dragon going "excuse me, before I can cast my Ice Storm at you, I need to find a pinch of dust and some drops of water."
Now for resurrection spells, specialty things like portals, fine. But a mage having to carry around dozens of worthless items, it seems kinda trivial. And for the most part, I'll admit, I ignore them IC except in the afore mentioned certain cases. So again, am I correct in assuming we say as a server "they don't exist except for those people that wish to RP using them, or the spells the mechanically require them"?
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 13:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Dark Immolation wrote: Still, it's kinda confusing when you try to think "Is it a technique or an actual spell?". I'm probably just thinking about it too much, as I often do when it comes to stuff with spells. I'd say it's a spell, and the PHB is just being unusually helpful in describing how you're casting it. Dark Immolation wrote: On another spell note, how much do we really honor the whole "most arcane spells have a material component" on Amia?
I believe we ignore it, but you'd need a DM opinion for sure.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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QPR
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 17:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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Is it possible that deities grant spells to dedicated followers that they otherwise do not have acces to with their current class. IE: could a Ranger be granted a lower level cleric spell?
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 17:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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QPR wrote: Is it possible that deities grant spells to dedicated followers that they otherwise do not have acces to with their current class. IE: could a Ranger be granted a lower level cleric spell? That's typically the realm of specialty priests and prestige classes. Quote: Dark Immolation wrote:
On another spell note, how much do we really honor the whole "most arcane spells have a material component" on Amia?
I believe we ignore it, but you'd need a DM opinion for sure.
You use them, but they're negligible. Even PHB says so.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 17:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Ruleswise? No, there are no game rules two allow for such, AFAIK.
Lorewise? Certainly. They're gods. Classes aren't static IC, anyway: new ones are constantly created as WotC publishes books, so it's reasonable to suppose that any combination is possible. I doubt it happens often, though.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Gunz
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 18:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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QPR wrote: Is it possible that deities grant spells to dedicated followers that they otherwise do not have acces to with their current class. IE: could a Ranger be granted a lower level cleric spell?
No, but you -could- request to RP a class that isn't a part of NWN.
For example: The "Invoker" class or, for the more aggressive character, the "Avenger" class. They're 3.5 classes, I believe. Give'em a looksy.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 19:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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A class is nothing but a collection of abilities. When you request a class, you really request the abilities. And moreover, I'm probably happier with classes and abilities you made up than those you found in some garbage book. So it's very possible to get something like that, if the request is good enough.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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QPR
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 20:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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Guess I was not clear enough; the question is if its feasible for my above-average religious ranger to learn one or two cleric spells (through a prosess of DC requests ofcourse) to add to his spell book, so to speak.
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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Grymia
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 21:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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A question about Arcane Archer lore:
With the exception of the implied Elves teach only other Elves/Elven blooded the art of Arcane Archery, is there any specific reason why an Arcane Archer can only be Elf or Half-Elf?
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 22:14 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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QPR: I'd say probably, yes.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 22:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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Grymia wrote: A question about Arcane Archer lore:
With the exception of the implied Elves teach only other Elves/Elven blooded the art of Arcane Archery, is there any specific reason why an Arcane Archer can only be Elf or Half-Elf?
I think it has something to do with their fey bloodline and their ease to dwell in the arcane? Making a wild guess here, so, do not hurt me if I am wrong!
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 22:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, elves do cast magic differently than humans, and they're part of the Weave on a whole different level. It's also probably cultural. If the restriction didn't exist, every archer would take the class.
I suppose something equivalent would be possible to develop, even if humans couldn't learn the specific elven techniques.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Gunz
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Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 6:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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QPR wrote: Guess I was not clear enough; the question is if its feasible for my above-average religious ranger to learn one or two cleric spells (through a prosess of DC requests ofcourse) to add to his spell book, so to speak.
I would say no. But I'm no DM. ::shrugs::
Tis' their opinions who you need to go through with this. Looks good for you so far with the first "probably yes".
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 15:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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QPR wrote: Guess I was not clear enough; the question is if its feasible for my above-average religious ranger to learn one or two cleric spells (through a prosess of DC requests ofcourse) to add to his spell book, so to speak.
Sure.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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QPR
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 0:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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Thank you for the uplifting replies. I got another question though; what is the average life spawn of a human in FR? Equal as today's West?
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 0:39 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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QPR wrote: Thank you for the uplifting replies. I got another question though; what is the average life spawn of a human in FR? Equal as today's West?
For commoners? Something simular to commoners in the Middle Ages, I'd think. 30's, 40's. 50 as venerable and rarely seen. In any case not a long time, considering no access to the best foods, best higene, clerics or such. I'm sure they're a few elderly commoners around though, as in 60+. It depends a lot on whether they lived out in the middle of nowhere on a farm or in the city as well.
For nobility? 60's and up. Plenty of wise rulers with access to the best medicine, food, magic, and bathing habits money can buy. I'd say almost to what it is today, given that a noble family would be likely to have access to a cleric or two.
For Adventurers? Heh, that's a tricky question. I'd say as much as nobility, or even beyond, in terms of pure longevity and how long they can live. But.. I'd imagine not a small few die in their early days, in their 20's and 30's, under some bridge somewhere or some cave, never to be seen and therefor ressurected again. But, even for humans, there are many ways to extend your life, from potions of longevity to just being a user of the arcane. Plenty of human wizards and sorcerers are known to live for many centuries.
P.S. This is all just speculation from what I remember, I'm too lazy to look up the actual age charts and PHB stuff right now >_<
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Nivo
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 0:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Location: East of Elsewhere, West of Sometime
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QPR wrote: Thank you for the uplifting replies. I got another question though; what is the average life spawn of a human in FR? Equal as today's West?
Using the PhB per the D20SRD, for humans, base venerable age is 70, with maximum age being that plus 2d20. The average, probably falls somewhere below that as the dice are not rolled, technically, until one reaches the venerable category. And, in a world like Faerun, good luck not dying before then.
That is the answer, with the almighty charts in mind.
_________________
Playing:
Marcus Valis
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 0:52 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Nivo wrote: QPR wrote: Thank you for the uplifting replies. I got another question though; what is the average life spawn of a human in FR? Equal as today's West? Using the PhB per the D20SRD, for humans, base venerable age is 70, with maximum age being that plus 2d20. The average, probably falls somewhere below that as the dice are not rolled, technically, until one reaches the venerable category. And, in a world like Faerun, good luck not dying before then. That is the answer, with the almighty charts in mind. I doubt many people reach that. Middle Age (so probably somewhere in your 30's) seems the best bet for an average, given that it's a Medieval setting, maybe as old as the 40's.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
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Nivo
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 0:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Location: East of Elsewhere, West of Sometime
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Yurell wrote: Nivo wrote: QPR wrote: Thank you for the uplifting replies. I got another question though; what is the average life spawn of a human in FR? Equal as today's West? Using the PhB per the D20SRD, for humans, base venerable age is 70, with maximum age being that plus 2d20. The average, probably falls somewhere below that as the dice are not rolled, technically, until one reaches the venerable category. And, in a world like Faerun, good luck not dying before then. That is the answer, with the almighty charts in mind. I doubt many people reach that. Middle Age (so probably somewhere in your 30's) seems the best bet for an average, given that it's a Medieval setting, maybe as old as the 40's. Merely quoting the sourcebooks. And, it is a medieval setting, with magic. A distinction to make. Magic being capable of things modern medicine is able to do, if not more.
_________________
Playing:
Marcus Valis
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 1:01 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Nivo wrote: Yurell wrote: Nivo wrote: QPR wrote: Thank you for the uplifting replies. I got another question though; what is the average life spawn of a human in FR? Equal as today's West? Using the PhB per the D20SRD, for humans, base venerable age is 70, with maximum age being that plus 2d20. The average, probably falls somewhere below that as the dice are not rolled, technically, until one reaches the venerable category. And, in a world like Faerun, good luck not dying before then. That is the answer, with the almighty charts in mind. I doubt many people reach that. Middle Age (so probably somewhere in your 30's) seems the best bet for an average, given that it's a Medieval setting, maybe as old as the 40's. Merely quoting the sourcebooks. And, it is a medieval setting, with magic. A distinction to make. Magic being capable of things modern medicine is able to do, if not more. True, but not everyone has access to this magic in the setting. Hence the reason I broke it down by social class in my response.
A commoner who's never seen more than 10 gold pieces together in one place in his life isn't going to be able to make the trip X miles to town to find and pay a cleric to cast Restoration on grandpa.
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 1:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Nivo wrote: Yurell wrote: I doubt many people reach that. Middle Age (so probably somewhere in your 30's) seems the best bet for an average, given that it's a Medieval setting, maybe as old as the 40's. Merely quoting the sourcebooks. And, it is a medieval setting, with magic. A distinction to make. Magic being capable of things modern medicine is able to do, if not more. You quoted the source book for maximum age, not average age.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 4:24 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Checking to be sure. A Ranged Touch attack can be considered to be made with any appropriate part of a creatures body, IIRC. Could one then validly say their spellcaster uses a bite instead of hands when using the spell Vampiric Touch?
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Maverick00053
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 4:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Dark Immolation wrote: Checking to be sure. A Ranged Touch attack can be considered to be made with any appropriate part of a creatures body, IIRC. Could one then validly say their spellcaster uses a bite instead of hands when using the spell Vampiric Touch?
As far as I understand it all you need to do is make physical skin to skin contact so you can, in the case of Vampiric Touch, steal away their hp.
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 4:52 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Dark Immolation wrote: Checking to be sure. A Ranged Touch attack can be considered to be made with any appropriate part of a creatures body, IIRC. Could one then validly say their spellcaster uses a bite instead of hands when using the spell Vampiric Touch?
Yes you can, although not if they're actually wearing a chain coif or something (unless you hold your teeth in such low esteem). A Touch Attack works by virtue of the fact you just need to make physical contact with them - hence why dexterity works (they can try to dodge it) but armour doesn't (hitting their armour works the same as hitting their clothes works the same as hitting them).
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 5:00 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Yurell wrote: Dark Immolation wrote: Checking to be sure. A Ranged Touch attack can be considered to be made with any appropriate part of a creatures body, IIRC. Could one then validly say their spellcaster uses a bite instead of hands when using the spell Vampiric Touch? Yes you can, although not if they're actually wearing a chain coif or something (unless you hold your teeth in such low esteem). A Touch Attack works by virtue of the fact you just need to make physical contact with them - hence why dexterity works (they can try to dodge it) but armour doesn't (hitting their armour works the same as hitting their clothes works the same as hitting them). In truth, of course you couldn't make the bite attack if wearing a helm or such, and even then, arms are more practicle what with the larger range and less chance to get your face hurt...
But in terms of coolness, nothing beats convincing lowbies and commoners you're some sort of vampire or horribly powerful being. *Daydreams about the chatter* 
"Oi mate, you won't beleive whats I saw up there on the frontier a tenday ago! There were these two bloaks fighting, swords and armor and magic, the whole nine yards... then all of a sudden, one just up and bit the other... and the other fell down... dead... Just fecking bit him, man!"
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 15:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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I bet the average lifespan is higher than in medieval times. It's most certainly not a medieval setting. Good luck finding Waterdeep or Silverymoon in 12th century Europe. Engineering is on a late medieval level, I suppose, but socially and politically it's much more advanced.
Also keep in mind that the average lifespan is somewhat misleading: people die of sickness, starvation or accidents well before their allotted time. It's not as if people in ancient and medieval times couldn't live just as old as modern men do, if they happened to avoid plagues and such: it's just that most couldn't, so the average is lower. Doesn't mean they died of "old age" any (well, much) sooner than we do.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 21:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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IronAngel wrote: I bet the average lifespan is higher than in medieval times. It's most certainly not a medieval setting. Good luck finding Waterdeep or Silverymoon in 12th century Europe. Engineering is on a late medieval level, I suppose, but socially and politically it's much more advanced.
Also keep in mind that the average lifespan is somewhat misleading: people die of sickness, starvation or accidents well before their allotted time. It's not as if people in ancient and medieval times couldn't live just as old as modern men do, if they happened to avoid plagues and such: it's just that most couldn't, so the average is lower. Doesn't mean they died of "old age" any (well, much) sooner than we do.
Hence the inclusion of maximum age (70 + 2d20 years for a human). And while it's not a Medieval setting, different regions certainly would have different averages looking at how the denizens are treated. Do we have any information on mundane medicine? I would imagine this would have a major impact on lifespan (thinking it would be somewhere in the 17th century myself, buthat's with no reference to anything).
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Thu, Jan 07 2010, 6:02 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Another curious question about the Shadow Variants:
Should the Shadows summoned by the Shadow Variants be of the "Outsider" type like the ones summoned by Shadow Dancers? Technically, I'd think, it should be Outsider, as the Variants are of the Illusion school. And the "Undead" type of shadow they currently are implies there's Conjuration going on, unless I'm mistaken. As in summoning the actual creature. Or maybe just materializing a part of the Shadow Plane...*shrug*
If it's right as it is, what's the reasoning? Again, I'm probably nitpicking, but I've always been a bit fuzzy on the logic of what constitutes an "Outsider" Shadow.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Jan 07 2010, 11:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Only SD summon Outsider Shadows due to a bit of fuzzy historical revision and homebrew stuff.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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QPR
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Posted: Thu, Jan 07 2010, 19:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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On gold dwarves: Do they have any bards, and if so, what is their position in their society? Furthermore; can anyone point me to a more informative site about gold dwarves than the FR wiki?
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Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 0:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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They definitely have bards, although I couldn't tell you the rest of that information.
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 0:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Not a single mention of dwarven bards in Races of Faerûn or Dwarves Deep. Arcane magic is said to be rare, but existant. Dwarven bards in general are considered an oddity (judging by Elfsong, the best novel on bards).
Dwarves like rythmic music and dancing. Winds are boring.
Vergadain appears as a musician, sometimes.
The aforementioned books have the best info. Don't know of any online sources.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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soundofastream
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 2:29 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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TormakSaber wrote: Only SD summon Outsider Shadows due to a bit of fuzzy historical revision and homebrew stuff.
In the Academy, they actually still refer to these Outsider Shades, as Shadow Planar Undead when doing the tests. However, for ages now, there's the belief that they're not undead but a planar being or a negative energy generated being, created by the SD.
So..which bit of the lore is wrong here?
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Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 13:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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The test is wrong. All the tests should really be redone and everyone forced to redo them. MAhtan's wanted to do it forever, as well.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 15:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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"Undead" can be simply defined as a creature sustained by negative energy.
As the R&L says, they're undead-type from this perspective, because they supposedly get undead properties in game. Since the lore was made, though, it's become evident that they don't in fact get undead properties? I am not sure; do they get undead immunities and vulnerabilities?
They are not undead if you define undeath as the state of once having lived a normal life and now living the other side of that coin.
That said, I wish it was all retconned and they were undead as they're supposed to be. Damn favoritism for moralist PCs. *grumble*
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 15:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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I wish they were undead too, but alas.
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RuffTuff
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 15:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: Clock Town
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The confusion here is mainly caused by the fact that there are two types of shadow which are otherwise nearly indistinguishable from one another; The Shadow, an undead creature which has incorporeal properties, and is a creature of negative energy which is as the standard Monster Manual creature type, and then the Shade which is summoned by a Shadow Dancer.
The Shadow is, in fact, undead. It's comprised of negative energy, it's described as a malevolent spirit, it has a draining touch, and is by all means a ghostly undead creature. These are commonly occurring phantasms in graveyards, cursed lands, and forgotten battlefields. The Shadow is a sentient manifestation of darkness, hating the light, and favors hit-and-run tactics with its strength-damaging touch attacks as it flits about, hiding in the shadows of objects nearby. They are always chaotic evil, and cannot be damaged by non-magical or non-ghost touch weapons.
The Shade, which is called forth by the Shadowdancer, is an entirely different creature, and at the same time, exactly the same. This is where the primary confusion takes place, as there's a gray area between RP lore and PnP rules with the creature. According to the specifics on the Shadowdancer class, the shadow summoned by the Dancer is in fact an undead creature. However, unlike the standard Monster Manual creature, the Shade that the Dancer summons has an alignment which matches that of the Dancer and can communicate intelligently with the Dancer who summoned it. In RP and Amia, however, the Shade is most often treated as a being called from the Plane of Shadow. This makes the shade an Outsider, rather than an undead, because it comes from another plane and is comprised of shadow matter as well as negative energy. While it does have undead properties and a draining attack, the Shade is not actually undead, as it's treated like an Outsider.
((*Disclaimer: By stating the above, I am by no means altering, defining, or directly quoting any part of Amian lore, but rather stating what the most common RP solution to this issue is, as observed by my own in-game experience))
So honestly, it depends on which lore you'd rather go by. Classic PnP dictates that the creature is undead with an alignment that matches the Dancer. So it's still undead, but it can be a Lawful Good undead. Go figure. Or you can have the Shadow Plane Spawn, which is an outsider and is the more popular choice to RP the creature as.
Also, some food for thought here: If we were going by the PnP rules to that degree, when the shade was destroyed or dismissed, the Shadowdancer would instantly have to make a fortitude save (DC 15) which, if failed, results in a loss of 200 experience per Shadowdancer level (Fort save for half), and the Shade couldn't be summoned again for 30 days. So mull that over, all you silly Dancers who use your Shadows for expendable farming puppets and five-second messengers. *shakes fist*
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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 16:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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In fact: Manual of the Planes presents a variant rule which connects Shadowdancers and the Plane of Shadow (they have nothing to do with eachother normally). In that case, the Shadow is summoned from the Plane of Shadow.
But here's where your version doesn't match the books: the Shadows in the Plane of Shadow are stated to be undead, as well. They're no different from the Shadows that lurk the ruins and tombs of Faerûn.
So if you go by the books, whichever rule you use (default PHB or MotP variant) the shadow is still very much undead. There's nothing tremendously peculiar about neutral or good undead either, there are plenty of examples of such in the Realms.
In the end, it's a cheap cop-out so that ranger/SDs don't have to use any imagination and skill in justifying the summon.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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RuffTuff
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Posted: Fri, Jan 08 2010, 18:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: Clock Town
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IronAngel wrote: In fact: Manual of the Planes presents a variant rule which connects Shadowdancers and the Plane of Shadow (they have nothing to do with eachother normally). In that case, the Shadow is summoned from the Plane of Shadow.
But here's where your version doesn't match the books: the Shadows in the Plane of Shadow are stated to be undead, as well. They're no different from the Shadows that lurk the ruins and tombs of Faerûn.
So if you go by the books, whichever rule you use (default PHB or MotP variant) the shadow is still very much undead. There's nothing tremendously peculiar about neutral or good undead either, there are plenty of examples of such in the Realms.
In the end, it's a cheap cop-out so that ranger/SDs don't have to use any imagination and skill in justifying the summon.
They are undead, yes, but when they're brought from the Shadow Plane to the Material Plane, they're counted as outsiders because they can't be both undead and an outsider. One racial type overrides the other. They keep the undead qualities, but not the undead classification.
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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster
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