This is a little guide I wrote up a while ago for another server, but should work equally well on Amia.

It's certainly not meant to be any official anything, merely a guide. As with anything of course it's subject to DM discretion.

I will say I researched the matter pretty thoroughly from canon sources. Use as much of it if you like, or none of it at all.

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A Roleplay Guide to Blackguard

A blackguard is a mortal who has bargained with an evil outsider in an attempt to increase his own power. This bargain may have been initiated by either party; certain demons and devils have notorious reputations for seducing mortals into corruption. Conversely, the mortal himself may have sought out and even summoned the outsider in order to advance his own dark power. Regardless, negotiating with fiends on such a level is an intensely evil act, to say nothing of wielding the power that results. For this reason, blackguards are always evil themselves, although they may not start out that way.

Negotiating with a fiend does not in itself make one a blackguard; receiving divine power as a result does.

The Deal

Central to the theme of the blackguard is the pact being made. As a blackguard can range anywhere at all along the law/chaos axis, so can the nature of the deal itself, as well as the fiend offering said bargain. Like every deal, both sides expect to get something out of it. Like many deals where fiends are concerned, both sides will not necessarily get what they expect.

The mortal will expect generally one thing: power. Common fiends cannot offer the divine power that a blackguard wields. In almost every case the fiend is acting as a broker for a higher power, such as an evil deity, archdevil or demon lord. The mortal may or may not understand the true nature of that power, depending on his own knowledge and what the fiend chooses to have him believe. Whether he knows it or not, the blackguard is always serving some higher power.

What the fiend expects will vary according to its patron, its nature (alignment), and what it feels the mortal can offer. The mortal’s soul will often be consigned to the fiend’s patron as part of the deal, though this is usually a formality as the nature of the deal will itself almost ensure this (a fact not necessarily made known to the mortal). Typically the blackguard will be expected to serve the fiend’s patron in some mortal capacity. This could be as part of a formal contract, if the patron is an archdevil, or simply in the freelance sowing of chaos and evil, in the case of a demon lord. Deities will likely expect their portfolios to be furthered in some way. The common theme is that the patron must have a compelling reason to grant a portion of its power to this individual, and one soul will not be enough of a reason.

The formality of the deal will also vary according to the alignments involved. Devils love formal contracts, full of loopholes and carefully worded language designed to entrap the other party into giving more than they bargained for. Demons are less predictable and may often just grant the power on a whim, once they have reasonable assurance the individual is likely to further their lord’s goals in some way. However, these are only guidelines. A lot of variation is possible on this point.

Not every deal is a straight-out bargaining session, especially if the mortal is non-evil to begin with. A fiend for example could appear as a trusted friend or advisor, and offer a long, slow seduction with which it slowly undermines the morals of the character, offering the deal only after pointing out that the character’s actions have irrevocably damned him to an evil existence. Devils are more likely to have the patience to pull this off, but some demons (such as succubi) are also well versed in the arts of seduction and corruption.

The Fiend

It is important to remember that the fiend is acting on authority from some higher power, as it has no divine powers to grant on its own (except in the unlikely event that the mortal finds himself negotiating directly with an archfiend or evil deity). However, it is not at all unusual for evil deities and archfiends to delegate this authority to their fiendish servants on the Prime Material Plane.

The nature of the fiend itself should be consistent with the patron it serves. Evil deities will often bargain with archfiends of similar alignment, purchasing minions from their home plane in exchange for souls. These are used as soldiers and servants on the deity’s home plane as well as the Prime Material Plane.

Similarly, the alignment of the blackguard should be similar to that of the fiend and its patron. Cyric is unlikely to grant divine abilities to a lawful character who would potentially oppose his portfolio; nor would Asmodeus wish to aid an agent of chaos on the Prime or any other plane. He may do so in unusual circumstances for a very limited objective, but not to aid the long-term career of someone whose goals oppose his.

In short, the one step rule applies in both cases. Lawful should not deal with chaotic, and vice versa.

It is also worth nothing that, although the blackguard may eventually be granted the power to summon a fiend to his aid, it will not necessarily be the fiend he has originally bargained with, but whatever his patron feels he is worthy of at the time.

A side note on spells: Many blackguard spells have names and descriptions associating them with either infernal or demonic powers. Players should feel free to roleplay those spells as appropriate to their alignment and patron. For example, a lawful evil blackguard could legitimately choose to rename Abyssal Might to Infernal Might, and claim the power comes from the Hells or his deity’s home plane as the case suits.

Being a Blackguard

Once the nature of the deal of the deal is established, the blackguard has a baseline of the expectations that he is expected to operate under. Much will depend on his patron, and his/her/its goals. Very often the blackguard may not even be aware of those goals, but the fiend will either have manipulated the terms of the deal to ensure them, or had enough confidence at the outset that the blackguard will fulfill them without direction.

As far as their mortal servants are concerned, evil deities are primarily concerned with furthering their portfolios. Playing a blackguard in this manner is not all that different than playing a paladin or divine champion, though the blackguard will not be constrained in the same manner as a paladin. Joining the deity’s church is certainly a possibility. Some evil churches in fact have orders specifically for blackguards. Their individual function will in some degree depend on their base class. Fighters may serve as temple guardians, rogues/rangers/monks as assassins or scouts, clerics as specialty priests, and arcane classes as almost anything.

However, even with a patron deity, joining a church is not strictly necessary. As long as the blackguard is somehow furthering the deity’s goals, the deity will most likely continue to grant him his divine power.

Archdevils have many interests on the Prime Material Plane, among them harvesting new souls, corrupting mortals to lawful evil, and countering the influence of demons or good-aligned beings who may thwart their plans for a particular region. Although they will typically have baatezu servants already performing these roles, adding a mortal to the mix can have many benefits. For one thing, a mortal is already native to the plane, and has a home field advantage of sorts. It also does not have to spend any additional energy assuming a native form as most devils do. On the downside, being non-baatezu the mortal likely does not have the same level of fear and obeisance of its archduke another devil would, assuming the mortal is even aware of whom he is working for. For this reason the blackguard would likely be kept under constant scrutiny to ensure he is fulfilling the terms of his contract.

A demon lord’s interest in the Prime will vary by individual from very intense to none at all. Most, however maintain at least a secondary interest in the harvesting of souls and the spread of the chaos of the Abyss onto other planes. Some also have specialized interests in the Prime; Fraz-Urb’luu, for example, is searching for his magic staff, while Obox-ob attempts to draw entire worlds into the Abyss to further his own power. Above all demon lords desire to extend their own powerbases within the Abyss, so any activity that furthers that end (such as disrupting a rival lord’s local cult) will be especially favored.

Bargaining with a yugoloth is another possibility. Being the great mercenaries of the lower planes, a yugoloth will probably only ask for money in exchange for its lord’s power. This would likely be paid on a periodic basis, and increase in cost as the blackguard gained more power (i.e., advanced in class level). The advantages of this sort of arrangement are that it allows total freedom of action for the blackguard, and that any alignment would qualify. The disadvantages are that the cost would likely be quite high. Divine power from the lower planes is fueled by souls, and souls are money. The yugoloth being dealt with would certainly want its share, and a large periodic payment would have to go to its lord to ensure that the divine power keeps flowing.

Losing Your Patron

On occasion, a blackguard’s patron may lose interest in continuing to provide him his divine abilities. This will most often happen as the result of an alignment shift, but there are other possible reasons. A deity may no longer feel the blackguard is upholding his portfolio. An archdevil may feel the terms of the contract have been violated. Demon lords are notoriously fickle and capricious. In addition to the mortal losing his divine power, any of the above scenarios carry with them the possibility of further reprisals by the patron.

However, as long as the blackguard remains evil he is very likely to be able to find a new patron to support him. It may even happen without the blackguard knowing it, particularly if the new alignment is chaotic evil. Often however, the blackguard will need to seek out a new patron who will tolerate his new alignment and behavior.

Blackguards in Society

How others perceive a blackguard depends on several factors. As with all evil PC’s, a blackguard may choose to hide his nature or act openly evil. Hiding his nature will likely involve some discretion with using his abilities around others. Certainly summoning fiends or undead is openly evil, and likely to be frowned upon in most societies. Many blackguard spells are identical to cleric spells, and would not themselves be recognized as evil; others are less subtle, particularly higher-level buff spells such as Investiture spells. While a commoner or even most adventurers would probably not notice the evil nature of his spellcasting, anyone with a decent Spellcraft skill might reasonably do so. As with the use of Detect Alignment spells, you as the player should have the final word on whether you wish your PC’s nature to be revealed by spellcasting alone – except in the case of summoning.

Playing an openly evil blackguard can be more difficult, but has its own rewards. Players should be prepared to have their characters shunned or even outright barred in certain societies, depending on how well evil is tolerated there. If you’re choosing to play an openly evil blackguard with a notorious reputation, don’t expect a warm reception in temples of the Triad.

Variations

Aside from the basic requirements (peaceful contact with an evil outsider, and a divine patron who grants him power) a blackguard has a great deal of flexibility in how he can be portrayed. He may be a holy warrior, an opportunistic dirtbag, a petty tyrant, or an insane lunatic. The one trait that ties blackguards together is a desire for power, and a willingness to draw it from an evil source.

Not all blackguards are born evil. Many are ex-paladins, corrupted by some traumatic event in their lives or having their faith shaken by some deceit or treachery. Sometimes the fiend they encounter will cause or hasten their fall; sometimes the paladin will fall himself, then seek out the fiend later.

Since blackguard is a prestige class, you yourself must decide how to balance the roleplay of your blackguard abilities with that of your base class. In terms of personality, a fighter/blackguard could still be little more than a fighter, albeit an evil one who has added to his abilities by making a deal with a dark power. Alternately he could be a devout disciple of said evil power, and roleplayed accordingly.

Probably the three most important choices to make for your blackguard’s development are base class, alignment and patron. Although a blackguard is not necessarily a cleric, choosing a patron for a blackguard character should be given the same consideration as you would for a cleric. Research into your patron’s goals and desires can only help flesh out the character.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Good guide. However, summoning an outsider is not inheritant evil.

*points to the Summon Lesser Planar Ally and Planar Ally*

As is summoning undead. I think, not to sure about that though.

Blackguards however can create undead, which is evil.

Safe for that, good guide.

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

I think summoning undead generally carries the descriptor of "evil". I'm not sure about all of them, but the Animate Dead spell certainly does.

Edit: And, welcome back, 762. I thought you vanished forever.

From what I glanced at this.. (I don't have much interest in playing Blackguards) .. thisi s very insightful and interesting. Definitely something that if I change my mind, I'll have to come back to.

Summoning an evil outsider is, though. "When you use this spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful or water type creature, it is a spell of that type." The same applies to every Summoning and Calling spell.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Thanks Seph.

Actually the requirement is to deal with said fiend and receive divine power as a result. So yeah, evil.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Wooo! Now noone has a excuse to ignore those BG levels they have for powerbuilding, here is a great guide.

Okay great guide. Now for the question. I play a chaotic evil fey/elf whom worships everan ilsere. Whom is a CN god that supports CE. So can/would my guy more than likely receive his power from said god. I know the possibility of him being fooled or wrongly thinking where he gets his power from, but isn't possible that he does actually receive them from everan?

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Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.

I find it extremely unlikely. Erevan's home plane is Arvandor so for him to have fiends in his service is quite a stretch.

There is no rule that says so but IMHO most conventional wisdom indicates that a patron who supports blackguards would be of evil alignment. Erevan is not only CN but he hangs out on a plane with the Seldarine.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

The best for PrC for you here would probably have been Champion of Torm, since as far as I know only evil powers provide the fell powers that a BG can use.

I believe when I was getting BG for my DD, Tormak told me that only evil powers could be patrons.

But then, again, my memory sucks. I could be wrong.

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BlackDahlya

Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath

Erevan Ilsere is not granting you Blackguard powers. He is still an Elven Deity and though CN, has a CG bent.

Sheverash is the only Seldarine deity I could conceive of giving BG powers.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

All undead creation and summoning spells are explicitly labeled as "Evil".

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

That said:

Mr/Miss Malevolant being could be pretending to be Erevan Ilsere, or one of his servants.

He asked for OOC confirmation, and that is what I gave him.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Apologies, quite true.

Commonly accepted dieties not explicitly evil that i'd accept as having the Blackguard PrC open to them:

Hoar
Sheverash
Kelemvor
Jergal
The Red Knight
Tempus
Uthgar

and maybe but not 100 percent Urogalan and Vergadain

Vergadain is an interesting one since negotiation is the fortay of his worshippers, that he often aligns himself with Abbathor, but doesn't favor evil thieves.

Its a pity that the batch of Blackguard changes coming in doesn't include a list that would deny blackguard powers to those dieties that would not accept a blackguard.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

not to disagree but i think that would be pushing it aswell..as shevarash really dislike demons due to lolths nature and how the drow uses the demon powers....and him allowing his followers to allign themselves with a devil..them being LE seems out of wack too..i would say that no elven diety would allow blackguards..but thats just my 2 cents..

As the very nature of the drow heresy..was due to deals just like the one blackguards make.

what people have to remember..atleast in my oppion is that this is not about alignments...just because your evil..dosnt mean your god will permit you to be a blackguard..just like a helmite who is LE will get smitten if he starts summoning undead...look beyond the requirements of a class and look at what the class is....

i have the same oppion about alot of classes...a few levels in paladin isnt a small thing to get a save boost..nor is champion of (insert god)...its devoting yourself completely to a god...you are a champion of thier dogma...to take this as a random level among many seems..wrong..

on that note i would like to draw a tad of attention to dragon deciple...you are a deciple of a dragon type...if that is a evil red dragon...then you are a follower of the nature of a red dragon...but thats just how i see it i could very well be wrong..and from what ive seen on this server..many players disregard what it means to take take up a class..

Post scriptum...on a side note..i have yet to see a shadowdancer that dosnt rock in rping thier class...just wanted to say that hehe, great rp keep it up..

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

Remove Red Knight and Tempus. They are LN & CN that leans towards good. Garagos is the War CN god that leans to evil. Uthgar is a barbarian god, and last time one of the tribes went evil they where destroyed for it, so it's doubtful he would accept BG's.

Tempus believes in rules of warfare, he believes in honour and protecting those that cannot fight. Red Knight is even more good with leanings and alliances to Torm. They constantly work together.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

yea...i would remove kelemvor too..not only due to the blackguards undead summoning, but also because i doubt very much that kelemvor would allow his people to make any deals with evil outsiders, demons out of the qeustion and devils..being reserved for those that have fallen to the wall...imo anway

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

I believe that Tormak spoke of the BG of Shevarash here being some sort of Champion. The god would be providing these "fell powers" himself, just like a paladin gets his powers from his deity.

He would not hand it through fiends.

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BlackDahlya

Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath

summoning fiends or undead...elven gods would never allow such a crime against nature and the balance...(yes i know about the elven archliches, but that is a exception..and a HUGE one)..((corrected it as a misunderstood your first post

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

honerstly i dont see any neutral god, or even remotely neutral god allowing what the class description is on this server..

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

there is a reason why no god supports the Eldretch Valuuthra...because such extreme evils are ..unelven

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

Kelemvor himself has a contractual obligation to devil-kin. I see no reason why a Kelly blackguard wouldn't also have a contract to further the cause. Being a blackguard does not nescessarily mean having to raise undead (see Sebek and Malar)

As long as your staying true to the dogma of the diety then being a blackguard does not at all conflict with the Tempuran faith. Honorable battle, settling disputes by force of arms and not being a coward can be applied to both neutral and chaotic evil characters.

Similiarly being Lawful Evil does not mean you are no less tactically savvy. Where a good character would be named a master tactician, the lawful evil blackguard would be considered a master manipulator providing for a favorable outcome through planning.

Its all irrelevant anyhow given the Blackguard nerfs will bust up the 'Dipping well' builds.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

i dont really see a kelemvor follower falling under the description put forth by this webpage...

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

It doesn't need to conflict with the dogma chris, the god simply doesn't have to give the blackguard spells. Tempus wouldn't give a blackguard spells, espically the spells a blackguard uses. As I said, Garagos holds the portfolio's that are evil aspects of war, infact that was a choice Tempus made because he didn't want those aspects that are considered evil. So sorry, but a Blackguard Tempurian is a no go. It's not in the gods nature to grant spells to beings who have those leanings.

A blackguard of Garagos however is perfectly reasonable.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I still resolutely disagree, Tempus keeps Garagos around because he doesn't like the innane aspects of Warfare like complete destruction. Mind if a DM tells me, this is the way it is and always will be, i will swallow my pride.

Kelemvor on the other hand doesn't even really see toril as good or evil, only as law and chaos. Gabe or Iron can explain better as its come up in previous discussions.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Yups, Tempus hates Garagos, but lets him exist because the God himself doesn't want to take over the portfolios of slaughter and reckless battle. And he knows Ao would give him the portfolios if Garagos were to ever die. However he attempts to stymie his growth and fights his worshippers at all costs..

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Well the question really is:

Would Tempus and the Red Knight accept Blackguard worshippers?

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

As a single DM giving my deity opinion: No. They purposefully espouse the more noble aspects of battle and leave the wild slaughter to Garagos, because they don't want it.

Of your list, I would say Sheverash, Hoar, and Jergal would allow Blackguards. The rest, no. And even then, it is testy and limited.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Red Knight wouldn't. She actively fights on Torms side as well as Tempus. Red Knight's Domains are "Law, Nobility, Planning War".



Working closely with Torm suggests that she wouldn't have Blackguards, more likely paladins. It also says she has a similar disposition. The section of "Worshippers" also doesn't state Blackguard or anything anywhere on it. No mention of Blackguards or any evil warriors are present anywhere in any PnP info on her, except that LE alignment thing. So no, she won't support Blackguards Chris, to much evidence suggesting she wouldn't.

Tempus accepts CG, CN & CE characters. He doesn't accept any lawful or neutral good & evil characters. As such a CE Blackguard would be in direct violation of his rules and laws. Meaning he would more likely fall in line with Garagos. As the primary group for Tempurians also, the War Knights likely wouldn't accept any blackguards into the order. Since they typically cast demonic spells, and make use of craven tactics, espically if they are CE. Suggesting they are not Tempus marterial.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Sorry Selvec but i can't for the life of me figure out what point your making in the last post.

He supports CG, NN, CE, CN

and then saying that he doesn't allow CE worshippers, which he most obviously does is confusing. (no flame intended bro, clarities sake)

I clearly stated if a DM tells me, no Tempus and the Red Knight wouldn't support Blackguards then I would accept that as Amia canon lore and even go so far as to suggest that the limited list left over + all the usual evil dieties be added to a script and all other dieties that support CE, NE, LE that aren't on that list be barred wholy from gaining any benefit from BG levels.

Thats just me and I don't have to do the work.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I admit it's confusing, and it took me a while to get my head around it when I first joined the Order of the Flaming Blade. Tempus has possibly the most annoying alignment/dogma thing in the realms. He is the barabic nature of a Warriors Honour. He's like the Barabrian Warriors who stick to a strict code of Honour. Not Law. He also doeesn't accept NN. Just CG, CE, CN. No NN. CE warriors are different to CE Blackguards. Blackguards make use of evil spells, evil feats and other plainly evil abilities. Evil Warriors are just evil people with swords and armor. They aren't plainly Evil, they can be redeemed. Blackguards are pure evil. They are given evil spells and such. Things Tempus doesn't have access to I'm afraid. Which means he can't have Blackguards.

In all honesty it's a bit of an argument in the DnD 3.0/3.5 universe that Tempus should be CG, and not CN. He's a good god of sorts, but because he is a War god, and the portfolios he holds, he has to be CN. I think it's AO's fault when he made them all maintain strict lines to the portfolios they hold I suppose. But yea.

My point in the arguments is trying to Pre-emp some silly bugger thinking it's a cool idea to make a Blackguard of the Red Knight or Tempus. I'm sure I'm right in this, even backed up by PnP. But it could still set a standard before it's corrected.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Regarding the Kelemvor Blackguards...
Would't it mean that if a Paladin falls due to Not doing the good thing, But upholding the laws of Kelemvor, He could transform into a blackguard?

Hence just ...Flipping sides.

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No, Anti-Paladin is a different class, and isn't present on NWN. Anti-Paladin is the flipside of Paladin.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Well, we dont have any Anti-paladins here so would't it technically be possible to be half paladin, Half Blackguard if such a thing would happen?

I mean, If you fall from paladinhood, And still hold favour from Kelemvor, you could just choose another path, the Opposite path and still carry out Kelemvor's will... And hence become a Blackguard. Frigging evil and nasty, but still a Champion of kelemvor whom upholds the Dietys will and dogma.

It would be kinda fanatic i think..

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If you fall from paladin, you become a paladin with no power. Which means you can take blackguard levels on top of those already aquired paladin levels. But you won't get any paladin bonuses at all, no paladin feats. Nothin'. Your a second rate warrior I believe.

No Pally/Bg's I'm afraid.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Would be sweet for kicks thought.

Edit:: waaait a moment. A Kelly-Paladin whom falls from paladinhood due to evil tendencies should't loose his Divine powers, Kelemvor still looks upon "it" as faithfull, just in another way.

There's no "holy" power in here since the Dogma of Kelemvor favours Both Paladins And Blackguards. There's just "Divine power" wich is applied to both the paladin and the blackguard , the only difference is how they use it

Or am i way out west?

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I am not sure if is anti paladin or Blackguard but I recall having read that some Gods favor fallen paladins and will happily take them in, as in turning their Paladin Levels into Anti-Paladin/Blackguard.

Granted, they loose all the Paladin levels and can only take half of them or so in the other class.

Then again, I just read that somewhere, really can't recall where.

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

The ex-paladin in your example would likely be a Champion of Kelemvor (CoT).

The real litmus test you need to use is, would such-and-such deity allow fiends to give away a portion of his power in order to corrupt mortals to his service. I can't really see Kelemvor having servitor devils who walk around the Prime offering his divine gifts.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

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Well, the real question here is not wether the worshiper alignment allows for both patron and BG, but whether the abilities of the BG would be such as the deity would grant.

Could Kelemvor have an evil champion? Certainly. Divine Champion is one such class. But the abilities of the Blackguard are geared towards subterfuge, necromancy and fiendish pacts. That's not the kind of evil champion Kelemvor (or many of the other gods suggested) would embrace.

The alignment fits, but the abilities don't. Common sense says so, IMO.

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Kelemvor can have black guards, and least that is my view. Just like a cleric can create undead or a wizard can, they dont. I also think due to the training to fight undead, knowing how to create them and holding the knowlege goes not against the doctrin, but actually makes sense.

A Kelemvorite cleric can't actually create undead. I'm pretty sure, at least. The god will simply not grant such spells, just like a good god won't grant any evil spells.

It makes no sense for him to sponsor Blackguards: they are a very specialized class, whose abilities imply stealth and backstabbing, demonic pacts and summons (they get a demon pet), and necromancy. That's what they're about. Why would Kelemvor spend so much of his energy to grant an armful of powers the follower is expected to never use? There are plenty of other classes in the books to represent a variety of evil champions of the faith. Particularly the Divine Champion, who can be of any alignment.

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Yup, I agree with Iron.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I think a lot of people are back to confusing Blackguard with Anti-Paladin.

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"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Okay so even though everan supports ce. His own personal tendencies would keep him from granting and supporting bg's. Understood. Now what's this about summoning an outsider that is a crime against natuer? The bg spell undead is understandable, but what is the crime for summoning a devil/deamon? Other than being evil?

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Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.

As far as I understood that Oshizo is that because that spell has the [Evil] Descriptor when used to call forth an Evil Demon/Fiend.

And since it is marked as Evil is it Evil. *Shrug* Fridge Logic, I know.

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

Well, I doubt there's such a thing as "crime against nature." It's an IC belief that druids and their gods hold. If you think about it, they're actually quite foolish, but that's another matter.

If you want to get spells from a deity, you need to make contact with their evil extraplanar servant (that's obviously what the prerequisite means to say). Not many neutral gods have evil servants.

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its also something about the balance of the world, demons and devils are not surposed to walk the prime planes, and allowing them disturps the balance greatly...just how i figure it anyway

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