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In my opinion, they really just complicated things by filing Shadows under "Undead". Another case of the manuals being "overly helpful" in describing things. Why are they undead? Becaue they're comprised of Negative Energy, the essense of the Negative Planes and the stuff that keeps zombies on the go.

But Fire elements are comprised of "Fire" from the Plane of Fire. We don't go redefining their type as "Fire". Like every other Outsider, they're comprised of the energy of their respective plane.

So my thinking? Forget what books say. They're Negative Plane Outisders... not "Undead". Philosophy should be left to the DM's and PC's, not Monster Manuals.

Well, they're not originally even meant to be summoned by SDs. They're a type of undead.

And there would be no problem with this, except for the fact that some SD PCs don't like undead.

Has there ever been any lore posted on the forums which relate to how Amian druids are expected to conduct themselves, their religion and any unwritten rules which druids generally abide by?

Plenty of lore. Some in the Grove forums, some in R&L.

None of it is "official" though. Amia doesn't differ from canon FR in this respect. It's all in the books.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, they're not originally even meant to be summoned by SDs. They're a type of undead.

And there would be no problem with this, except for the fact that some SD PCs don't like undead.

I still think they should be undead to be honest.

RuffTuff wrote:

They are undead, yes, but when they're brought from the Shadow Plane to the Material Plane, they're counted as outsiders because they can't be both undead and an outsider. One racial type overrides the other. They keep the undead qualities, but not the undead classification.

Lore-wise they don't override eachother, that is how creatures with more than one racial type exist (e.g. Nightcrawler is Undead (Extraplanar).

Question: Is it against the rules for me to RP my elf cleric as an Eladrin? He's not a wood elf or moon elf. I chose no subrace when I created him and he's been established RP-wise as being very proud of his "pure" blood.

Source: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eladrin

I'm no DM, but going out on a limb, I'd say that it's sort of iffy, if nothing else- Eladrin are a product of 4e. While nifty, it would be a lot like opening the door for Dragonblooded and other assorted wierdness.

Just my two copper.

Actually, Eladrin (although MUCH different) did exist in 3.5/3rd (moreso 3.5) ..

Book of Exalted Deeds had information moreso about their courts as they were a Fae race which was tied to the Court of Stars.

Make note: I'm not asking to play a Noble Eladrin or anything like that (entitled to extra powers). Just a pure-blooded Eladrin. With no diluting of the blood-line.

Jyro X wrote:

Question: Is it against the rules for me to RP my elf cleric as an Eladrin? He's not a wood elf or moon elf. I chose no subrace when I created him and he's been established RP-wise as being very proud of his "pure" blood.

Source: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eladrin

As I recall, it's fine to RP an Elf who takes the Amia's "Aasimar" subrace as an eladrin, but you may need a special request. IC I guess he could call himself an eladrin just fine though.

If you just took the normal "Elf" race, you may need to make a request anyway to RP it.

My statement was in regards to the information on the other side of that Wikia link. It's 4e stuff, regarding things such as Fey Step and the like. But you're making steps in the right direction in asking if it's okay- Personally, I'm interested in seeing the DM response.

I like the concept, don't get me wrong, and I mean no malice toward you- I'm just uncertain as to how well it flies in Amian airspace.

Sakkran wrote:

My statement was in regards to the information on the other side of that Wikia link. It's 4e stuff, regarding things such as Fey Step and the like. But you're making steps in the right direction in asking if it's okay- Personally, I'm interested in seeing the DM response.

I like the concept, don't get me wrong, and I mean no malice toward you- I'm just uncertain as to how well it flies in Amian airspace.

Right none taken. I just think there's an over-abundance of forest elves and wood elves and moon elves and the like and there's like next to NO elves with the blood of the High Elves in them.

This seems very out-of-sync with DnD to me.

If memory serves, Moon Elves make up one of the largest sectors of the Elven population. That's sort of like saying that there's an overabundance of humans in New York.

Sakkran's right about the moon elves, since they are the abundant. As far the rules concerning Eladrin, best to wait for a DM to post. Note: Forgotten Realms wiki is 4th ed, and is thus wrong.

Edit: From what I can see in 3rd ed (namely Book of Exalted Deeds) Eladrin are nothing like what they are in 4th ed, so to RP one you will more than likely need DM permission. Also, there is more than one type of Eladrin - it is a category of CG Outsiders.

Oh, and what do you mean by 'pure blood'? My knowledge of elves isn't that good, but I thought most were pureblooded (barring 4E crap).

Yurell wrote:

Sakkran's right about the moon elves, since they are the abundant. As far the rules concerning Eladrin, best to wait for a DM to post. Note: Forgotten Realms wiki is 4th ed, and is thus wrong.

Edit: From what I can see in 3rd ed (namely Book of Exalted Deeds) Eladrin are nothing like what they are in 4th ed, so to RP one you will more than likely need DM permission. Also, there is more than one type of Eladrin - it is a category of CG Outsiders.

Oh, and what do you mean by 'pure blood'? My knowledge of elves isn't that good, but I thought most were pureblooded (barring 4E crap).

What I mean by "pure-blooded" is a direct-descendant of the first elves to ever walk the planes, with no dilution of the bloodline at all.

Jyro X wrote:

Question: Is it against the rules for me to RP my elf cleric as an Eladrin? He's not a wood elf or moon elf. I chose no subrace when I created him and he's been established RP-wise as being very proud of his "pure" blood.

Source: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eladrin

Fourth edition, disregard, your PC is a Moon Elf if he has no subrace

3.5 a.k.a.Our Eladrin are Celestials and cannot be played without an explicitly approved request.

i got a small question, is a paladin allowed to run from a fight against evil..without falling?

There are noble sacrifices, and then there's stupidly standing in front of an oncoming train, to serve no purpose whatsoever. IE, standing your ground to buy a group of people time to escape versus venturing out solo, for no reason aside from wanting to kill someone, against the Banite Hit Parade.

The former is what Paladins are good at, and typically encouraged to do. The latter is just dumb. Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid.

Sakkran wrote:

There are noble sacrifices, and then there's stupidly standing in front of an oncoming train, to serve no purpose whatsoever. IE, standing your ground to buy a group of people time to escape versus venturing out solo, for no reason aside from wanting to kill someone, against the Banite Hit Parade.

The former is what Paladins are good at, and typically encouraged to do. The latter is just dumb. Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid.

yea...that is where i disagree...but alas im gonna wait for a dm reply

It always always always depends on the situation and the DM.

But to answer the question in the broadest possible sense (can there exist a situation where a paladin can fall back from a fight against evil), yes.
As Tormak said, the specifics of the situation matter a lot.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

i got a small question, is a paladin allowed to run from a fight against evil..without falling?

It also depends on the deity. For example Triadic Knights or the Knights of the Eternal Order are not allowed to run, at least this is what the pnp description says about those prestige classes.
Personally I don't like the fact that a paladin would run away, he should stand on the ground.
However if someone decide to throw rocks or trees on you (like Mylthar did for example), then take cover

If the consequence of your paladin standing his ground are worse for other people than if he backs down, then yes, it would be very odd if the paladin did not back down. Say: Evil dude/dudette holds a village hostage and demands that said paladin backs down and leaves him alone, or else he will murder the entire village. In that situation, I see no problems in a paladin backing down.

Last edited by Lutra on Mon, Jan 11 2010, 15:03 PM, edited 1 time in total.

QPR wrote:

If the consequence of your paladin standing his ground are worse for other people than if he backs down, then yes, it would be very odd if the paladin did not back down. Say: Evil dude/dudette holds a village hostage and demands that said paladin backs down and leaves him alone, or else he will murder the entire village. In that situation, I see no problems in a paladin backing down.

I dun think that it is actually part of the run away thing. It is a negotiating thing in a hostage drama and when you are doing that, even in real life, sometimes you have to step back a bit. Though it does not mean that you run away from the situation.
I think that the original question was meant to an obvious combat situation where the paladin stands alone against a group of Cyricist for example.
You have two choice: run or fight(and most definitely die in the fight).

I'd suggest reading previous threads on paladins, they tend to go on for a while and this thread isn't meant to be a big debate on the minutiae of a paladin's code.

Jyro X wrote:

What I mean by "pure-blooded" is a direct-descendant of the first elves to ever walk the planes, with no dilution of the bloodline at all.

There's no such thing as the first elves to walk the planes. Not known to anyone in the world, at least.

You should look up elven history in the book Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves. You can dowload it legally and for free here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Elves migrated to Toril from another plane (or possibly planes) in waves. They were already different from eachother at the time. The only race native to Toril are the Wood Elves, as they have evolved apparently from sylvan (wild) and moon elves over the millenia of warfare on Faerûn.

Every elven race is just as "pure."

Iron while I haven't read the 4'th edition lore but I think they changed it there, so the Eldarin in fourth edition can be that though that doesn't mix with our lore so, no eldarin with request as they are something specific in third edition lore.

IronAngel wrote:

Jyro X wrote:

What I mean by "pure-blooded" is a direct-descendant of the first elves to ever walk the planes, with no dilution of the bloodline at all.

There's no such thing as the first elves to walk the planes. Not known to anyone in the world, at least.

You should look up elven history in the book Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves. You can dowload it legally and for free here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Elves migrated to Toril from another plane (or possibly planes) in waves. They were already different from eachother at the time. The only race native to Toril are the Wood Elves, as they have evolved apparently from sylvan (wild) and moon elves over the millenia of warfare on Faerûn.

Every elven race is just as "pure."

technically i think the leshay(being those that perhaps(not sure about this next part) even the elven gods came from) where the first...

Last edited by IronAngel on Mon, Jan 11 2010, 17:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Maias: Yes, indeed. But this topic is about Realmslore as you say, and the 4e Shattered Realms has nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms. History, as it has been mostly consistently written from the beginning of the setting, knows no such elven history.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Jyro X wrote:

What I mean by "pure-blooded" is a direct-descendant of the first elves to ever walk the planes, with no dilution of the bloodline at all.

There's no such thing as the first elves to walk the planes. Not known to anyone in the world, at least.

You should look up elven history in the book Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves. You can dowload it legally and for free here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Elves migrated to Toril from another plane (or possibly planes) in waves. They were already different from eachother at the time. The only race native to Toril are the Wood Elves, as they have evolved apparently from sylvan (wild) and moon elves over the millenia of warfare on Faerûn.

Every elven race is just as "pure."

technically i think the leshay(being those that perhaps(not sure about this next part) even the elven gods came from) where the first...

There are no such thing as the LeShay, as far as I know. That's some core D&D nonsense the undisciplined and unacademic amateurs of the Elven Netbook included in their Realmslore. Don't trust the Elves of Faerûn project at all. They don't cite their sources.

I could be wrong, though. If you know of any source that discusses the LeShay, do let me know.

All I know of LeShay is that they're epic level Fey.

I say bullocks as well. Never encountered them in elven lore reading. There are a lot of books about elven history floating about there.

I wrote this some time ago about the first elves and I still stand by it really;

AmiaWiki elf entry wrote:

Racial History

The First Migration

The Elves are not native to Faerûn in truth they originate from the realm of Faerie. The first wave of migration took place about twenty-five millennia ago. The fist Elves to arrive were the Sy'Tel’Quessir(Green Elves), the Ly’Tel’Quessir (Lythari) and the Aril'Tel’Quessir(Avariel). Of these three ancient Elven races only the Sy’tel’quessir remain in significant numbers. The remnants of this Elven race are known as Wild Elves. The Avariel are close to extinction and only few remain in the realms. The Ly’Tel’Quessir are no longer regarded as a part of the Elven race. This has been agreed upon by most scholars as the Ly-Tel’Quessir have moved too far away from the path of elvenhood.

The Second Migration

The second wave of migration consisted of the Ssri’Tel'Quessir (who would later become the Drow), the Teu’Tel'Quessir (now known as the Moon Elves, and finally the Ar'Tel'Quessir (later Sun Elves. Not long after the Alu’Tel'Quessir (Aquatic Elves) appeared in the Great Sea.

The First Flowering

This is regarded as the very pinnacle of Elven glory. During this time ((approx. -24000 to -12000 in Dalereckoning) each Elven nation developed, grew and expanded in their own ways. The Ssri’Tel'Quessir who resides in the southern parts of Faerûn, formed possibly their greatest kingdom, Illythiir. The Ar'Tel'Quessir’ had their most influential kingdom Aryvandaar situated along the Sword Coast. The primary Teu’Tel'Quessir kingdom was known as Orishaar. The Sy'Tel’Quessir established a series of great realms the most notable being; Illefarn, Keltormir and Shantel Othreier. Miyeritar was formed by Sy’tel’quessir political dissidents from Aryvandaar and Ssri’Tel'Quessir colonists.

Sadly this golden age of the elves was not to last. During this period the rising level of aggression of Aryvandaar (under the guidance of the Vyshaan clan) and cruelty of Illyrthiir led to growing tension. This tension ultimately exploded in what would later be known as the Crown Wars.

The sources are there still at the buttom though all the wikies have no abolished the old pages.

From what I know, I agree with Maias.

IronAngel wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Jyro X wrote:

What I mean by "pure-blooded" is a direct-descendant of the first elves to ever walk the planes, with no dilution of the bloodline at all.

There's no such thing as the first elves to walk the planes. Not known to anyone in the world, at least.

You should look up elven history in the book Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves. You can dowload it legally and for free here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Elves migrated to Toril from another plane (or possibly planes) in waves. They were already different from eachother at the time. The only race native to Toril are the Wood Elves, as they have evolved apparently from sylvan (wild) and moon elves over the millenia of warfare on Faerûn.

Every elven race is just as "pure."

technically i think the leshay(being those that perhaps(not sure about this next part) even the elven gods came from) where the first...

There are no such thing as the LeShay, as far as I know. That's some core D&D nonsense the undisciplined and unacademic amateurs of the Elven Netbook included in their Realmslore. Don't trust the Elves of Faerûn project at all. They don't cite their sources.

I could be wrong, though. If you know of any source that discusses the LeShay, do let me know.

its in the epic level handbook, it specifically says that it is rumored that Corellon was a leshay once

The epic level hand book is dnd core material and they use the same name for the head of the elven pantheon. So thats just general dnd stuff.

Maias227 wrote:

The epic level hand book is dnd core material and they use the same name for the head of the elven pantheon. So thats just general dnd stuff.

Yups, that's Greyhawk, not FR.

LeShay's whole backstory is in the Epic Level Handbook. Without digging up the file, I do recall it saying "LeShay are to Elves what Elves are to Humans" in that they're like super graceful, haughty, all the things elves are but even so much it scares elves a bit.

My thinking is just they're two completely different Fey humanoid races. They look a lot alike, but LeShay are just like uberfey or something. I recall their backstory something about coming from another time and reality, and they can't go back or something even worse would happen. They're pretty much all ancient demigod-like creatures.

In Greyhawk possibly, in Faerûn they just don't exist, at all.

I've asked on Candlekeep and had no response - maybe somebody here knows.

:arrow:

What are the dates for the second empires of Mulhorand and Unther?

:arrow:

When did Ao allow Mask to expand his geographic sphere of influence to include the thieves of the Old Empires?

:arrow:

When did Zandilar the Dancer use her feminine wiles to gain vital information from deities of other pantheons and to persuade human chieftains and kings to leave the Yuir in peace? When did the Yuir elves began to falter in a series of battles with drow armies?

:arrow:

When did Selvetarm destroy Zanassu? When was Selvetarm born? (it was 'many centuries' before Lolth convinced him to destroy Zanassu, which would have been some time between 292 & 1292 DR as per Demihuman Deities pp.37-39: "When the Spider Demon lost much of his power after a conflict on the Prime (against Qysara Shoon V of the Shoon Empire) Lolth convinced Selvetarm to destroy Zanassu... Zanassu was banished back to the Abyss by the qysara in the Year of Frostfires (292 DR).... his avatar did not actually return to the Apostolaeum until the Year of the Wandering Waves (1292 DR), 1,000 years to the day after his banishment.")

I don't know what's referred to as the Second Empire of Mulhorand (or Unther). I suppose if you knew the events that marked it, you might find the dates. Grand History doesn't state it directly from what I can remember, though. I could try following the references back from the end, and see if I come across anything. I doubt it.

As for divine time, I think it's safe to say it works different to mortal time. Events of the gods can't probably be exactly dated. Now, it's another matter when the effects of these events, such as worship, appeared on Toril. I have no idea. You probalby know as much as anyone, apart from those who wrote the lore. I seriously doubt there's a date pinned down for any of this, and in many cases sources actually conflict because of that, or the explanations become very difficult. The best you'll probably get is a span of several decades or centuries.

I think there's a case to be made for treating them like real world myths, though. One thing you notice most religious myths have in common is that they explain the state of the world today, but they're located in some mythical dawn of time. The function of the myth does not require a specific date, and indeed, it would be harmful. Of course, some FR myths have corresponding historical events related to them, so you can't take this interpretation literally either.

Bah.

Xaviera wrote:

I've asked on Candlekeep and had no response - maybe somebody here knows.

:arrow:

What are the dates for the second empires of Mulhorand and Unther?

The Second Empire began at -150 DR according to Old Empires. 679 DR was the end of the Second Untheric Empire, and 922 DR saw the end of the Mulhorandic.

Need to know some magical creatures that likely can develop as a sorcerer or wizard, as well as be a familiar.

Only ones I can think of are pixie and imp.

Are you asking for a PC familiar? Don't bother, if so.

TormakSaber wrote:

Are you asking for a PC familiar? Don't bother, if so.

I'm not asking for a PC familiar, it's something I'd like to know.

I believe that practically any creature with innate spellcasting abilities/spell-like abilties could advance as a sorcerer. Provided they also have at least some level of intelligence that'd allow them to work on their abilities and recognize it as sorcerous talent.

Well, the full answer is "None of them." You couldn't ever get a familiar like that without the Advanced Familiar feats. Familiars are things like bats, rats, cats, etc.

In NWN terms however, the ones you're looking at are imps and Fae, yes.

Out of interest; what class would people say best represents a typical christian monk at a monestary, if converted to nwn? Ofcourse, he couldn't be christian, but like what christian monks were doing in their monestaries.

SHort answer QPR is that is actually quite wide open.

I think more, if you are looking at the Monastic type of things done by Christian Monks, you'd want to be looking towards the Job system. However, as for a proper class? Rogue? (Or Monk/Rogue alternatively) ..

Cleric would also fit to some point..

I have 2 questions. 1. Can anyone tell me the difference between Mask and Shar? (also where is Shar's Idol)

2. Anyone know anything about the Shadovar?

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