AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

The DM Team looked around our forums. We listened very seriously to your complaints about the demeanor of not only your fellow players, but also your DMs. We've hit a five year anniversary for Amia and the server is well into its prime. The playerbase has more or less settled with new blood trickling in from time to time and old blood moving on to different things. And as it moves into this prime, it is very easy to fall into the same nasty traps and habits that we have all seen consume and even destroy other online communities.

Flaming other users. Insulting them. Being generally cruel and mean to others because it makes you look cool, or makes you feel good. Believe me, I know the emotional payoff, as I'm speaking from a position of guilt here. I've intentionally baited a few of you into unflattering positions, contributing my own coal to the fires. I've made my "victimization" very clear, as I believe the Great Equalizer put it, and sharing this with everyone is no fun.

We asked ourselves, "What can we honestly do?"

It immediately came up that we should tighten the reins on the rules of the forum, but I don't think that is necessary. I abhor net nannies.

And, worse, I think the DM Team would be hypocritical to do such a thing, especially when some of us have contributed to the general air of nastiness. Again, myself included.

So we made a decision. For the past month, we've been doing our best to curb our tongues and tie knots around our fingers. Those are our rules we expect you to follow, and we're going to follow them ourselves the same way that we want, and will ultimately expect, you to follow them, too. But first, we need to re-establish our own moral high ground, and no longer give the impression to some of our players that we claim it merely by virtue of being DMs.

We all know what good forum behavior constitutes. I don't need to link this to the lettered rules, or go into any great detail. We all know that most of it involves a difficult process of curbing the tongue when the ego takes control.

No flaming. No insulting. No baiting.

Show your fellow users some respect. It is very easy to get caught in the trap of, "Well, I don't have any respect for that person for this reason." If you don't respect a person, don't let that turn into breaking general forum conduct. Handle it maturely and responsibly.

But let us, the DMs, make a concerted effort at it first. Though you may disagree, I feel that we have something to prove, and it is that we ought to be leading by example.

I am glad to see this initiative on the part of the DM team, and will do my best to similarly be more mindful of my words on the forums.

I am happy to see the initiative, but may I ask what sort of penalties are being looked at, for both players and DMs?

I have had my share of nastiness too. Recently, I have been policing myself but sometimes I still let something out which I end up regretting.

Though I believe I am better now than a couple of months or maybe years ago, I will keep constant watch over my tongue and emotions in order not to commit flaming, baiting and so on.

Yossarin wrote:

Though you may disagree, I feel that we have something to prove, and it is that we ought to be leading by example.

I don't think anyone can honestly disagree with that, if they've read the forums. :wink:

I'll try to be a sweeter sweetheart, too. I can still write slanderous and evil tales about people in the "How Well Bla Bla..." thread, right? :shock:

It seems I made my last comments about our esteemed Teutonic neighbours just in time.

I assume foul talk about DnD developers isn't an issue, btw?

Dev Disco wrote:

I assume foul talk about DnD developers isn't an issue, btw?

Of course you're allowed to throw anything you like at them.

What if these things are done in a light hearted/joking manner? Still a no-no? That's how 98% of my insults have been intended. But if that's a no go, fair enough. I can be a serious cat too.

And to be quite honest, most people here have been guilty of this at one point or another. Me included. It happens. We're human. But I think this is a wise step, to make it a rule and enforce it. Hurtful and non-light hearted insults and flaming and baiting only harms the community at a time where we need to be counting our lucky stars.

Yurell wrote:

I am happy to see the initiative, but may I ask what sort of penalties are being looked at, for both players and DMs?

short/longer/looong/perma-bans of course, not much else you can do.

Quote:

What if these things are done in a light hearted/joking manner? Still a no-no? That's how 98% of my insults have been intended. But if that's a no go, fair enough. I can be a serious cat too.

Initially they should be.
It only takes one person to post a "yeah sure <profanity at yoss' address> <smileyface>" and if he gets away with that the whole effect of the thread will have been nulled. Be hard untill the general behaviour is proper, and once the community has been "fixed" it will be very easy to handle the bad spots that pop up, since they will stick out.

belgianbonzai wrote:

Yurell wrote:

I am happy to see the initiative, but may I ask what sort of penalties are being looked at, for both players and DMs?

short/longer/looong/perma-bans of course, not much else you can do.

Yes, but there are some people I doubt will see this punishment despite their behaviour.

well if they keep circumventing their ban you can always take it up with their ISP.

I know one forum in Belgium that got a case like that and the person was blacklisted for internet use for a few years by the ISP's. He returned a lot more quite and nice (and was posting from the library, seeing how he couldn't get internet at home)

Must've been one blast to explain to his parents too since he was a minor.

This is possible for nearly all countries btw, most ISP's have some stuff in their user policy that gives them the right to close you off when they see fit, and one customer usually doesn't really matter to them.

belgianbonzai wrote:

well if they keep circumventing their ban you can always take it up with their ISP.

Not what I'm talking about. Let me use Disco for a second - I choose to use him as an example since he is never rude or impolite (in my experience), so shouldn't take offence or take it personally. Would he seriously be banned? What about other DMs that hold equally important, irreplaceable positions?

Well so far I haven't found the bahavior of the DM to bothersome. I've been a found visitor of a certain irc chatroom for near ten years now and the adim team there is a bunch of sadistic self important asses that will find a reason to kick people in humorous ways. I like that place and compaired to that you're all kittens. Then there's one who's name I need not to mention.

Yurell wrote:

belgianbonzai wrote:

well if they keep circumventing their ban you can always take it up with their ISP.

Not what I'm talking about. Let me use Disco for a second - I choose to use him as an example since he is never rude or impolite (in my experience), so shouldn't take offence or take it personally. Would he seriously be banned? What about other DMs that hold equally important, irreplaceable positions?

Well, I could live with a forum ban if people think I am a git. Makes my life a lot easier, now that I think of it.

All I have to say is that people need to chill a bit, get off their high horses, and stop thinking everyone is out to get them. Which means taking offense to every little thing said, then sparking a fight. If your tired, drunk or whatever, don't come on please, stay away till your better. I find this funny, and I say it to myself quite a bit dispite how silly it sounds, but things are only offensive if you take them offensively. Of course that's no excuse to put up with offensive behaviour, but to often people take offensive behaviour as something that's probably just a joke.

Chill it. This is the interwebz, what's someone going to do by being offensive? Threaten you with their leetz h@xx0r $k!llz

This place is pretty locked down already. If it went my way, people could say whatever they wanted, to each other, to DMs, in public. But that'll never happen. I see where this is coming from, it just wouldn't have been my choice.

Nekhy wrote:

We actually tried that for a good while, without much announcements or fuss over it, just being quite relaxed with moderating.

I don't think I've ever seen these forums boil over, or anything. So I'm wondering what the trigger was to tighten that up again? It seemed to have worked well enough.

Don't mind me while I sit at the side here and wait for some more humorous O'Rag posts to come ahead.

*Ban hammer pwnz n00bz.* (Yeah, I'm totally trying to annoy O'Rag some more. ^.^ )

Anywho, yeah in the past I sent an Email to Magnum Man concerning Amia due to what has happened on the server these days. >.> No offenses to the DMsies, I don't trust any of them. *Gives the DM's a cookie and a huggle.* Plus, if I said anything it'd just be booted out the window due to my ForumlolSpammer class with extra Skill Focus:Spam on the side.

Overall, I'd say the DM's decisions these days are moderate. Not perfect, just in the middle.

Yes every good topic is always only twenty posts away from utter crap. I miss my adim days on forums. The abuse of power, the finding ever more comical ways of kicking people, editing posts and having people love you for it.
Ah but then, I've been on some nutty forums that make this look like concervative christians in bible class.

I removed the Yurell/O'Rhoweveryouspellit stuff. I suggest both of you put your head in a bucket filled with ice for a bit.

To Xordae: I do not think our forums are very bad. Actually, I think they are pretty OK. Still, it's very easy to get this vicious circle of sour posts, tit-for-tat kindergarten behaviour and likewise arseholiness if you don't do a reboot every now and then.

Last edited by Nekhy on Thu, Jan 14 2010, 12:58 PM, edited 1 time in total.

You went a bit overboard with your modding, darling.

Nekhy wrote:

Well, I am (and have been for the past month that the DM team has already been cleaning up their public posts quietly) hoping that nobody needs to be banned, seriously. Just read over your posts, think if it's something you'd like someone to say to you before posting.

xordae wrote:

This place is pretty locked down already. If it went my way, people could say whatever they wanted, to each other, to DMs, in public. But that'll never happen. I see where this is coming from, it just wouldn't have been my choice.

We actually tried that for a good while, without much announcements or fuss over it, just being quite relaxed with moderating.

xordae wrote:

Nekhy wrote:

We actually tried that for a good while, without much announcements or fuss over it, just being quite relaxed with moderating.

I don't think I've ever seen these forums boil over, or anything. So I'm wondering what the trigger was to tighten that up again? It seemed to have worked well enough.

Well, actually the trigger was quite simple. There was some stuff posted by some players that made some DMs call for bans. This resulted in some other DMs oppose the bans because DMs can and do flame too, and a discussion followed. This is the result.

In my opinion it's simple: I have a very high threshold for DM forum bans, and equally high threshold for player forum bans (excluding obvious trolling and harassing, which gets people banned very easily. DMs don't tend to do this, for some strange reason). If we want to clean up the public forums and lower the tolerance for flaming (and, lower the banning threshold), it's gonna happen equally to everyone.

Details, details...

Also think it should be added as a reference, because it is a good example, a dm, a current even, has requested and undergone a forum ban for behaviour on the forum. We do keep an eye on each other.

Can't really say that I ever saw anything overboil or people flaming each other badly.

It has always been more or less civilized.

In the past months less civilised, though.

Not that I mind, really, on a personal level. I've been quite happy with the laissez-faire mentality, even if it means being the target of flames at times. But it's always good to try new methods and see if and how things change.

Play the ball not the man. Or what do they say?

Is spamming topics in General D and Improving Amia going to be cracked down on aswell?

Well, in Improving Amia I believe in the evolutionary approach. You spam, you are not helped. Pick a fight and you know I won't look at the topic again. Etc.

It does annoy me when people start picking fights over things they are not deciding anyway, though. It's as stupid as it is unnecessary. Complain with me or Terra or Tormak or whomever actually executed or ordered a change, don't start a war with bystanders to vent off frustrations.

Excellent idea...

Mind this is for actual flaming and such right?

I mean....I've voiced my complaints about Amia(95% w/o insults)...

I actually haven't seen it.....well actually strike that the forum has gotten bad, and not with complaints or "Amia is dying" type threads either.

I notice those "amia is dying" threads are actually decreasing....that is good.

What I noticed more now though is a complete lack of respect usually concerning specific incidents.

Perhaps a simple 24 hour ban would make all the difference...

P.S. Oh yeah.....when you moderators start looking out for bad forum demeanor, as in the above posts that were thankfully removed(which I don't even find the irony funny because it was so stupid, please take the following posts into consideration:

1. Any post that begins with: "I find this offensive/insulting/blah blah blah." Usually these posts ALWAYS lead to flame war. They rarely contribute anything but the posters personal feeings(which the insulter/offender rarely, if ever, actually cares anyways). For some strange reason also, whenever one of these posts is made, it's about something that isn't even truly offensive.

2. One liner posts made again and again by the same person, also suck. Why they don't just re edit their old post?

Folks, if you take offense or insult to something stated, and that offense isn't an actual blatant offense to anyone else, keep it to yourself. No one gives a rat's patooty about what personally offends or insults you, if it doesn't do so for everyone else.

Geld Yaztran wrote:

1. Any post that begins with: "I find this offensive/insulting/blah blah blah." Usually these posts ALWAYS lead to flame war. They rarely contribute anything but the posters personal feeings(which the insulter/offender rarely, if ever, actually cares anyways). For some strange reason also, whenever one of these posts is made, it's about something that isn't even truly offensive.

[...]

Folks, if you take offense or insult to something stated, and that offense isn't an actual blatant offense to anyone else, keep it to yourself. No one gives a rat's patooty about what personally offends or insults you, if it doesn't do so for everyone else.

I disagree. I think it's good to discuss these things so that a compromise can be reached, so long as you handle it politely. Just because some people like to slip into open flaming and baiting doesn't mean that you have to. So long as you keep it polite, it's all good. And besides, if you find something exceedingly offensive, it is good to make it known so if they chose to repeat themselves later they can eschew the term or at least be more constructive in its use.

I personally have no issue with someone defending a stance or marking that something posted bothers them. There's a way to tactfully debate that seems to be lost when one doesn't have to look one in the eyes, and so it goes.

That's probably why they recently invented the sarcasm symbol...

http://www.news.com.au/technology/us-co ... 5819156911

I believe it's possible to be tactful, and I've seen it done here. I'm proud of the team for taking the initiative to watch our own mouths before telling you to watch yours.

Yossarin wrote:

Show your fellow users some respect.

I think, in the end, this is the real biggest point to be made. Despite all our differing views on this game we play, we really do have to remember to respect each and every view presented, even if we disagree with it completely, or it is, in fact, completely wrong.

Simply stating your case, and debating maturely, can become a lost art in forums of this magnitude. This isn't really saying you can't debate an issue. Just know that those you debate against are entitled to their opinion, and try to understand where they're coming from, before presenting an opposing view.

That being said, and since I am simply unable to end a post without making at least one joke...if you really feel the need to get some sort of anger out of your system, I would suggest everyone on the forums pm Tormak their favorite curse word. And quite possibly mention something about the amount of sucktitude involved in psionic PC's. :twisted:

Last edited by Galenson on Fri, Jan 15 2010, 15:00 PM, edited 2 times in total.

So in other words, this thread's informing me that after four long years I have to change my attitude towards others overnight?

I'll be extremely blunt: I don't see that happening overnight. [edit] I've been borderline forum ban for years, its just who I am. If I have to change, be nice to people that is, it'll be a slow process. A very slow one.

Galenson wrote:

So in other words, this thread's informing me that after four long years I have to change my attitude towards others overnight?

I'll be extremely blunt: I don't see that happening overnight.

I don't believe anyone is being asked to change your attitude towards anyone else, just curb the way we express said attitude and police ourselves in an adult, civilized manner.

If ALL the staff, not just some, would show the playerbase some respect I think they general attitude of the playerbase would improve. A trickle down effect if you will. I do think there should be punishments for both staff & players for not showing respect, for flaming, for being a douche no matter the cost. If a staff member or player is being a jerk then that staff member or player needs to face the conseqences of their actions, no matter who they are. Just like in-game you have to face the consequences for your actions, so should it be on the forums. No one staff member or player should hold Amia hostage, should blackmail Amia...."Well if we punish them who will do blahblah?" "Oh we can't ban so & so! They are needed!" "Oh well we will give them another warning because their RP is great/crucial to a plot/whatever."

The staff would ban a player that deserved a ban irrespective of IC import.

Staff have also been forum banned before.

Also: Respect is a two-way street. It should be earned, by work of both parties, not freely given.

That being said: There is no excuse for being uncivil. There are excuses you tell yourself or may say, but the real reason is you were too weak to edit yourself.

Gal: No one's asking you to change who you are. They're just asking that when we share our input we do it in a non-combative, civil, non-insulting manner.

Respect isn't the word to use here. Like Dwagin said, respect is earned. What we need is common courtesy between players and DM's alike. Respect comes with time.

I generally think i'm fairly courteous, but there are instances where certain things on the Forums light a flame of flame under me.

One of those is the pointless debating for 100's of posts that occurs and derails important topics.

Simply enough, it's the golden rule. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. We learned that as wee little childrens.

And I do not want to see anybody else think "I should be able to act like an ass because this person and this person do it! I'm not going to curb my attitude until everybody else does!" It doesn't work like that, plain and simple.

The staff doesn't like being the Forum Police, but if you continuously show a poor attitude on the forums, you will find yourself on the receiving end of an involuntary vacation.

I'll believe it when I see it, although the words are flowery and all inspiring and stuff.

In the weeks since I was threatened with a 3 day forum ban for making a single post in the Requests forums trying to help someone .... there's been over ONE HUNDRED other individuals posting in the SAME forums who's received no warning, no ban, or anything else, with the same DM actively posting in replies.

:roll:

I've also seen the same derogatory, insulting and publically humilitating statements made by members of the DM team, supposedly while these last weeks have been "reigning back".

:roll:

Forgive me for being pessimistic, but like I said, actions speak much louder than words. As you might imagine, I'll likely get flamed in this thread for bringing these things up, but I don't expect you to read my mind. I'm not just trying to denigrate people or publically humiliate them, I am holding them accountable for their very very public actions.

Regards,

You don't see forum bans. That doesn't mean they aren't dished out.

^ They exist....

Truuuuust me...

I think I was forum and game banned a few times over the summer for being a drunken cursing lout.

You certainly were if you can't really remember it...

Wel... its 5am here. I was trying to think of a number but I never wrote one down, hence the 'think'....

However +1 for the chicken man. Yeah, dark chapter of my life, long behind me now. I think I was game banned once... and forum banned twice. If I recall exactly....

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

I've also seen the same derogatory, insulting and publically humilitating statements made by members of the DM team, supposedly while these last weeks have been "reigning back".

Perhaps those select members do not agree with this topic?
They do have a choice don't they?

They do. And in truth, I can only speak for myself. But those who don't agree and continue to do the same things leave me hanging out to dry.

I respect this decision a lot, because not only does it keep you from being hypocritical, but it also exemplifies that you guys do try to keep yourselves on a tighter regimen of discipline. In my opinion, it takes a lot more effort and self-control to keep yourself from saying all the things that you know that nobody else does. Or to keep from making judgment calls on those that you have seen in the dump many a time, and that other people may not know about (those privately given forum bans, etc etc). It's a lot harder to restrain yourself when you know everything, because as always, it's tempting to let everyone in on all the reasons and evidence for why you feel the way you do, even if it might not be the most appropriate thing to do.

Even if the efforts fail. Or if there's still some attitude in posts. It's easy to cry for a perfectly fair world and infinitely harder to create one. Sometimes someone has to be the guinea pig of a ban and nobody else gets the threat as harshly, etc etc. I'm just happy to see that Yossarin is even telling the playerbase about it, too. Yossarin isn't legitimately required to tell everyone that they're/he's trying to be better. He just feels like he is and wants players to know. To me, that sort of conscience is what makes a good DM. It's basically inviting the playerbase to help be that conscience, too, as long as we're willing to be conscientious about what we write in return! It's a good deal.

Truefax. And it becomes doubly difficult when you're a know-it-all like me.

But seriously, my other motivation is to curb the bard's tongue effect (which players of old school Werewolf may recall): the more you speak it, the more real it becomes. Xaviera mentioned my pithy commentary. It is true. I'm curbing my tongue because, honestly, by harping on what everyone knows to be true without encouraging the alternative is as demotivational to players as threads like "where have all the DMs gone?" are demotivational to DMs.

So you see, I have my own very personal reasons for doing what I do beyond a mere business-like dedication to the server.

Hey, I was mentioned! And not just for being a total -censored-. I'd like to thanks Yoss for that alone as given the amount of times I've acted like a -censored- it wouldn't have been too unreasonable.

That being said I really must agree on this, speaking from (far too much) experience I can say that being an unreasonable jerk rarely (if ever) adds anything beneficial.
However it almost always makes things considerably less hospitable and less productive.

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