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A bit of timing, a bit of asking 'Howdy DMs , are y'free for 'X' ?'

.. That's all y'need honestly.

I think it would be better to give them a conversation, honestly. Yes, we COULD ask a DM, but the DM could also use that time to further plots rather then some NPC interaction that is just to ask questions that doesn't further RP as much several times for different people. After all, we have to share DMs with 80+ people, so this might not be the best use of their time.

Surprisingly, that DM interaction may well further a plot along more then you might presume.

Depending on the circumstances and DM, a valid option might be to ask if it'd be okay to PM them some queries, do appropriate RP to reflect those queries (spending time in the library to do research and the like) and go from there.

Blah. Not every PC is a library dwelling tea totalling ponce. The conversation idea from Nathera is good.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

Blah. Not every PC is a library dwelling tea totalling ponce. The conversation idea from Nathera is good.

True, but even the Kettleheads can find value in books. (noting one of my primaries IS basically a Kettlehead at the moment)

<_< ... *just gives up since people are too concerned with metagameing guards rather then to offer real ideas for guard alternatives to attempt to create more rp for the captured*

-Krad

If a DM says "ask one" I'm willing to bet the team doesn't see it as a waste of our time .

The answer is simple and I have learned it through many experiences on both sides as prisoner and imprisoned.

The answer is as simple IC as it is player to player:

Your victim, your responsibility.

Were I too imprison someone I'd keep them company, put in a talkative guard, do something that keeps the player behind the imprisoned character from being bored or neglected.

I've never had any player complain about being tortured/imprisoned(though I've certainly gotten complaints about death or other things...but that's another story...heh). The reason no players ever complained about things like that was because I made it interesting for the other player.

Furthermore I offered them freedom of choice....mind you choice seems relative to some players in amia. Examples of things I did:

-upon winning a PvP against a prego woman and her lover- *Does not kill them but renders them helpless*

Now at this point I knew I wanted to do something to the prego woman to show my evilness, so instead of:

*Rips fetus from the womb and eats it!...leaving you with some retarded excuse to recreate your baby!.....Muahahahahah!!!*.....

It turned out to be:

tell- Hey...I really want to do something wicked to enrage *character A*, you mind if I write a message on your prego belly? It won't scar for life or hurt the baby or anything just send a wicked message for like right now.

response- Sure.

*pulls out a knife and carves delicately in fine caligraphy on *character B's* stomach

*Character A* Truth?

It's evil enough, does little damage in the way of physical damage and vastly changes the dynamics of the relationships between the characters.

In a similar way, the Cordor Guards can be more accomodating to the player, if not always to the character. The trick is to try to use your imagination in making it fun for the imprisoned. And if you play your cards right...they'll keep your scars. :wink:

I must ask; is there a point to this thread, or can it be locked?

I mean, seriously. I see "Grrrr, Guards are bad" "Grrrr, Guards RP Bad", "Grrrr, Guards stop my RP (despite them only preventing PvP and blatant stupidity)", "Grrr, Guards are Bad"...

etc.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

The Cordor Guards turned to throwing people out because people OOCly complained about being in jail, whether or not they were RPed with. Because no PC "should" have such power over where they go or what they do. Now you just get whipped out on your ass and you can't enter Cordor.

That's a rather defeatest attitude, and if it is truly the reasoning behind such actions, I suggest a dose of "harden the (censored) up" from the DM family.

I seriously doubt that is the true reason though, because I have more faith in thr DM team than what Tormaks post suggests of the player and DM base in general.

Oh puhleese. This has nothing to do with DMs and everything to do with PC guards. I don't know where you decided to turn it into slinging mud at the DM team for whatever innane reason but you should drop it.

And I can't believe you're giving Yoss grief over him telling you to find out ICly. Roleplaying server, pfft. Right?

WonWon wrote:

I must ask; is there a point to this thread, or can it be locked?

I mean, seriously. I see "Grrrr, Guards are bad" "Grrrr, Guards RP Bad", "Grrrr, Guards stop my RP (despite them only preventing PvP and blatant stupidity)", "Grrr, Guards are Bad"...

etc.

Sigh.

So biased. So self-righteous. So ignorant.

Uh, no, that's pretty much all this topic is saying, yo. "I can't kill who I want where I want."

Or that's what you, and the DMs, perceive it as saying.

It ain't uncommon. We've seen that approach taken by DMs for the last... hundreds or so topics in regards to stuff of controversy.

Alright, Mr. "Voice of the Reasonable Playerbase", what IS it saying.

You expect me to be baited by you, Tormak?

You should know better.

And perhaps even re-read the topic, and the posts. While keeping an open mind that doesn't automatically jump to the "I'm a DM, I must defend my position!"-stance.

No, I expect you to tell me what you think is right, if everything we say is wrong.

I've never said that everything you guys say is wrong. Far from it. I often agree with the DMs. But I don't see it as necessary to lick DM ass by reaffirming when you're correct each and every time.

I always write what I believe is right. I've done so in this thread, in numerous posts. I did so in numerous posts in the thread which Laleli locked, for whatever reason.

But that's just -my- belief. And as I stated, in this thread as well, it's just -my- opinion, and my opinion is not a fact.

I might be one of the few vocal ones of the playerbase, that does oppose the DMs when I see a need for it.

Perhaps you should ask yourself, why there's so few, who does that?

Because when I speak to players in-game and on MSN, my opinions and perceived attitudes given by the DMs, are actually quite common.

There's really no point in expressing concerns or opinions, any more, on Amia. Hasn't been for a while.

And I'm just beating a dead horse.

Quote:

There's really no point in expressing concerns or opinions, any more, on Amia. Hasn't been for a while.

Uhh, yes there is.

I don't see any problem with agreeing to disagree, Mago. I lock posts when they've been discussed ad nauseum and when people start reeling off course, it doesn't have anything to do with what you posted.

The DM's are on hard ground sometimes with the guards. I guess the best reason I can give is, well, we can't be everywhere all the time, and guard rpesence is the closest we can get. If someone decides to summon a dragon and squoosh half of Cordor and we can manage to posses a guard to help or hinder then, we'll do it. heck..we've done it.

It's all a part of the balance I talked about before. In places like Cordor and Kohl it just makes sense. South Cordor was guard-free for a long time until massive nasty stuff happened IC. Then, action was taken.

A part of me shudders thinking of the nightmare that would be a full PVP city. Playerside it excites me. DM side it terrifies me, because of the groaning we'd have to deal with.

I understand that it feels a bit overwhelming, especially being in the faction you are which is probably one of the toughest factions to be a part of. You are probably coming from a place where it feels very much like there is no place you can go unwatched.

The guards don't exist to kill roleplay, in my opinion. They exist to allow roleplay to happen without incident. I'd love to say that everyone could go crazy and PVP at will regardless of a guarding standing 5 feet away with his back turned, but it won't always go smoothly.

It's frustrating for DM's because we know what it's like to deal with a person who feels metagamed/wronged. The players share the frustration when they feel crippled to react due to an NPC.

So it is what it is, I suppose. I hear there was a time that Cordor was a PVP zone. That some of the cities weren't so guard heavy, but are now.

In the neverending battle to make all the players happy, you win some, you lose some.

WonWon wrote:

I must ask; is there a point to this thread, or can it be locked?

I mean, seriously. I see "Grrrr, Guards are bad" "Grrrr, Guards RP Bad", "Grrrr, Guards stop my RP (despite them only preventing PvP and blatant stupidity)", "Grrr, Guards are Bad"...

etc.

It does kill RP Ron, every time you throw a deus ex machina into the works.

And an invincible NPC faction is pretty much just that.

Why not just let the players decide? I'm not talking about the mindless attention whores who run around Cordor every day doing asinine things, but the ones who actually try to bring forth meaningful conflict RP to the server.

Lalelilolu wrote:

The guards don't exist to kill roleplay, in my opinion. They exist to allow roleplay to happen without incident. I'd love to say that everyone could go crazy and PVP at will regardless of a guarding standing 5 feet away with his back turned, but it won't always go smoothly.

This is a really good point Lal, and IMHO the crux of the entire argument.

The question that remains open is just what kind of RP does it allow, and what kind does it kill in return.

Killing asshat attention whore RP = good. I think that's almost universally agreed upon.

Killing meaningful conflict RP = bad/good. There are two schools of though here. Some folks want a "good only" server where all RP is tea-and-cookies, while others want conflict RP between PC's to be a meaningful part of the landscape. I think where you stand on that point is going to have a profound effect on how you view NPC control over given areas.

I support Cordor being No PvP.

I played a PC guard in Cordor, when it was Party PvP. And I played other characters, that PvPed in Cordor when it was Party PvP.

However. Cordor, together with Wiltun, is the only two cities I see the need to have this kind of set up in.

The thing is. Even though Cordor might be No PvP, all other settlements with unpossessed NPC guards are effectively that as well.

And for what reason?

Well, as far as where I stand...I don't wanna tell someone that tea and cookies is bad. I don't wanna tell someone that conflict is bad.

I want people to have the freedom to have their tea and cookies with full knowledge that a simple request for a DM posession could wind up in a guard being distracted by a friendly fellow asking for directions, which allows enough time for his accomplice to slit someone's throat. Guards don't only exist to arrest people. If you're clever enough, there are more outcomes.

I also want people to know that if that is not their idea of fun roleplay, someone understands that, and is trying their darndest to make everyone's experience the best it can be.

A quick bit of a DM's request for time and that can be resolved.

To be honest? i don't see a problem.

You CAN ask DM aid to arrange an attack, which I imagine if successful the mod will be affected. But, you need to work with the DMs.

That would be sooooo... marvellously awesome... if it wasn't like this:

Amia Island - 43/65 (0 DM)

Amia Abroad - 19/65 (0 DM)

90% of the time.

And the remaining 10% of the time, you have maybe 1-2 DMs online. Which 99% of the time are already busy doing something else (plots, quests, rebuild requests, rule breakers, OOC disputes etc).

... PM a DM? Arrange a time?

There is options here. Admittedly, while this was being discussed in a topic, it is a point that I admit has to affect it.

But, still.. there are ways around it.

TormakSaber wrote:

And I can't believe you're giving Yoss grief over him telling you to find out ICly. Roleplaying server, pfft. Right?

Honestly, Tormak? Concerning this topic: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=44640.

Even if it has nothing to do with this topic, about guard, it concerns your answer quoted above.

I bumped the linked topic in the forums 3 days after the main post was made. You replied.. well, what you replied. I bumped again 8 days after the main post and four days after the first bump and no reply ever came.

When the topic was still fresh, I asked DMs, in game, once or twice when they said they were free, if they could possess that NPC.

Nothing.

I gave up.

You could argue that my last post said I gave up, but I replied like that IC as a way of saying "Hey, I am still interested, but my PC will not pressure the hermit."

Now, to stay on topic here, what about the "NPC PC" guards in L'Obsul, in the area of the Houses? Some RP was already barred there and I am still thinking of a way to create RP, but I feel with my hands tied. Not even my PC who is accepted by the drow of Lolth can do a thing there because of that.

When it was mentioned that the PCs would be responsible for guarding their own areas, I think it was meant with IC physical presence of the PCs, not imaginary presence of NPC guards when the PCs were not on.

How do we go about those areas?

Grymia wrote:

... PM a DM? Arrange a time?

There is options here. Admittedly, while this was being discussed in a topic, it is a point that I admit has to affect it.

But, still.. there are ways around it.

Right.

I can see you having less difficulty getting ahold of DMs, Grymia. Seeing how you're an ex-DM.. and, how many of the current DMs do you have on your MSN list?

But sending a PM to a DM, or arranging a time, doesn't work in the most common scenario where "metagaming the guards" would be a factor. Which is the following:

*This takes place at the bridge with the gate in Bendir Dale*
Random Person: "You're ugly."
My Character: "What? Who are you?"
Random Person: "Doesn't matter. You still look ugly."
My Character: "Ok. Good to know, bye."
Random Person: "Chicken."
My Character: "What do you want?"
Random Person: "Nothing. I just think you suck, but not as your mother does."
My Character: "Mate, quit it. If you go on like this, you'll get into trouble."
Random Person: "What are you going to do? You're weak and worthless, and everything you stand for and believe in is crap."
My Character: "Last warning."
Random Person: "Ha ha. You ugly chicken."

My character hostiles Random Person.

Random Person: // You can't attack me. You'd be metagaming the guards!

Now... there's one million and one different versions of that scenario. One character mouthing off to another, to the point where its absolutely inevitable for the other character to attack and beat him up.

Yet the "metagaming of guards" is suddenly thrown in, both safe keeping the one who's causing and initiating the conflict, and hindering the other character from responding by attacking.

This doesn't just apply to evil villains. You see all types of characters getting into all types of conflicts all over the place.

And yes, I've personally experienced this hundreds, if not thousands of times with Darthion. Hell... even the DMs have been witness to stuff, exactly like the example above, occurring to me numerous times.

At those times, you would need a DM -immediately-, if so, to possess the NCP guard.

If there's no DM around... you're looking at a potential rule violation for "metagaming the guards", if you were to (justifiably so) attack the character.

And you guys, including Ron and Tormak, think that that's good?

Truth said: I don't think the situation's all that good in that, yes. Some mouthy little bugger could start something with you (although ironically they too depedning on where you are would be in breach of laws if it's a guarded area). I've seen it happen enough times.

And incidentally, who I have on my MSN is my own business, Mago.

The situation can be improved, however the question remains:

How?

So kill them when they leave. Problem solved.

TormakSaber wrote:

So kill them when they leave. Problem solved.

And if they don't?

Not to mention... Amia is big. If I were to wait on every single person who mouthed off against my characters, and then find them wherever they would be on the server once they've ported out of the NPC guarded area... I would have had to spend an extra couple of thousands of hours on Amia, doing just that.

Still... the NPC guards, with no DM around to possess them, keeps my character from acting the way it would be acting, and at the same time keeping the characters who mouth off or initiate a conflict, from being dealt the IC consequences/repercussions of doing so.

From the Rules:

Quote:

4. IC Actions lead to IC Consequences. If you initiate a conflict (by insults or thievery, for example), you can't expect to get away with it. You cannot ignore other players' RP or declare it null.

You can't metagame to acquire those IC consequences though. That makes you no better than the dude who started it. You do realize that most of the time they're mouthing off to you specifically because they know your first reaction will be to pull a sword so ytou get kicked out of the place ICly most likely, right?

Or you could simply opt to ignore them, and not kill the asshat who is trying to bait you. You wouldn't attack someone for flipping you the bird in front of the police either.

I've found my own way of putting up with and dealing with this stuff... since it has likely occured to me more often than your average Amian player.

Buut... sigh.

Again. Beating a dead horse.

Where the DMs don't see a problem, there apparently is none.

And judging from Tormak's response, it's all dandy the way it is.

So I guess that's it.

It's not dandy. We're short staffed, we know that. You guys know that. Some hours are harder than others to handle. This is an issue that isn't going to be solved by a frustration filled thread. All it's gonna do is ...frustrate people. I'm pretty chill and seeing someone say "oh well" When I'm busting my ass up top is pretty frustrating. Granted my approach is stupidly nice and diplomatic most of the time because that's the only way I know how to operate. I wish I could be more of a hardass.

You asked me once if I knew what it was like to be OOCLY disliked, mistrusted and questions by half the server, Mago. What do you think?

Are we working on filling empty slots? Yes. Are the DM's who make their hours and them some trying our darnedest to help every single person we can? Yes. Are people being left out in the cold? Yes.

We can do one of two things with this. Try to fix it, or say "fuck it everything's fine." All can I do is ask you guys to think about which solution makes more sense to work towards for the team, and trust that we're doing it.

At the core of it, I don't see it as a concern in regards to lack of DMs.

I see it as a module design flaw.

The NPC guards have been made, so that they would require a lot of DMs in order to work properly. Where it could have been done differently, and not need any DMs at all (with the potential exception of Cordor and Wiltun).

Last edited by Neso on Sat, Mar 20 2010, 0:42 AM, edited 1 time in total.

So, one question... If my character casts a spell that makes a person implode, and then casts greater sanctuary, am I metagaming the guards? 'Cause surely, after the confusion, the reaction of the guard would not be swift enough to do -anything- about the situation.

If this is not metagaming, then just kill them fast Mr Mago, haste yourself, and run the hell away.

Edit: Would the guards even -want- to interfere after they have just seen a person get imploded? Or would they wait for backup? Time which the assailant could use to escape.

Uh, that's incredibly metagaming.

Last edited by Neso on Sat, Mar 20 2010, 0:43 AM, edited 1 time in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

Uh, that's incredibly metagaming.

Elaborate? How can it be metagaming?

Mr Mago wrote:

At the core of it, I don't see it as a concern in regards to lack of DMs.

I see it as a module design flaw.

The NPC guards have been made, so that they would require a lot of DMs in order to work properly. Where it could have been done differently, and not need any DMs at all (with the potential exception of Cordor and Wiltun).

Either you have guards which require DMs to arbitrate or the entire server's ctiies become little more than PvP Cordor.

Neso wrote:

So, one question... If my character casts a spell that makes a person implode, and then casts greater sanctuary, am I metagaming the guards? 'Cause surely, after the confusion, the reaction of the guard would not be swift enough to do -anything- about the situation.

If this is not metagaming, then just kill them fast Mr Mago, haste yourself, and run the hell away.

If you do this in a guarded area, you are metagaming the guards.

Note: Guarded.

Places like the Frontier, server rules still aside you're generally good. (though, you will need to understand the potential of risk involved. You find someone that survives that implosion after whatever RP lead you to the point of trying to end them, then you need to bear in mind the possibility they'll be trying to slay you)

I believe the Guards need to stay in place myself, and people should just follow the subtly hinted or more blatantly spoken advice in this thread:

- Patience.

- Contact a DM if need be and possible.

- Strike outside of Guarded areas.

Neso wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Uh, that's incredibly metagaming.

Elaborate? How can it be metagaming?

In a discussing where performing overtly hostile actions like murder in front of guards is metagaming, your proposed solution is to simply murder them faster? No. Nonono.

You assume the guards can't react fast enough. Maybe they can. Maybe they don't. Maybe something else entirely is going on. What do you know? you don't. You're the PC.

Grymia wrote:

Neso wrote:

So, one question... If my character casts a spell that makes a person implode, and then casts greater sanctuary, am I metagaming the guards? 'Cause surely, after the confusion, the reaction of the guard would not be swift enough to do -anything- about the situation.

If this is not metagaming, then just kill them fast Mr Mago, haste yourself, and run the hell away.

If you do this in a guarded area, you are metagaming the guards.

Note: Guarded.

Places like the Frontier, server rules still aside you're generally good. (though, you will need to understand the potential of risk involved. You find someone that survives that implosion after whatever RP lead you to the point of trying to end them, then you need to bear in mind the possibility they'll be trying to slay you)

I believe the Guards need to stay in place myself, and people should just follow the subtly hinted or more blatantly spoken advice in this thread:

- Patience.

- Contact a DM if need be and possible.

- Strike outside of Guarded areas.

Nobody is doing any explaining here. How is it metagamin? There is -nothing- a normal guard can do about the situation. That's the way the greater sanctuary spell works. A mage guard possibly could.

You think there's nothing that can be done. All I read s "blah blah my build is so awesome I transcend rules and cna tell people what the NPCs can and can't do."

Seriously, how hard is "Don't kill peope in front of guards and NPCs that would do something" iwthout a DM such a hard thing to comprehend that you must constantly look for loopholes to sate your ego and your desire to Win?

TormakSaber wrote:

You think there's nothing that can be done. All I read s "blah blah my build is so awesome I transcend rules and cna tell people what the NPCs can and can't do."

As opposed to telling me what I think, can you tell me what you think can be done in the situation instead? From a guards point of view.

the guards have the DM's kill button quickslotted. end of story. they win.

Depends on the guard, depends on the situation, depends on what's happening. It's like you see to think that PCs are the only resourceful people around and that Amia's NPCs don't have a long history of dealing with PCs that do the exact tactics you think work perfectly. Regardless, it's still metgaming. The solution to "Don't kill people in front of guards" is not "kill them faster flagrantly ignoring the guards because my Awesomeness stops them."

Alright, sorry. You should've just said that your guards transcend d&d rules then. That clears it up.

blackvswhite wrote:

the guards have the DM's kill button quickslotted. end of story. they win.

Erm, no. But denying any possibility of interaction regardless of what it is in metagaming. What if your silly little implosion fails? What if the guard tha's been monitoring the situation got slipped a Reality potion? Shit, maybe he just locks the gate and then you're stuck inside. The point is you're assuming that your magically stupid "lolkillGS gone" works despite the very rule saying "Don't do that."

Neso wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Uh, that's incredibly metagaming.

Elaborate? How can it be metagaming?

NPCs have a right to try and react. You need a DM reset for this - how, for example, do you know none of the guards carry a rod of Mord's? That would end your killing spree really quickly. Or what if one of them has autoquicken, and counterspells you the instant you start to cast?

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