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[ 36 posts ] |
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brooksthegreat
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 Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 0:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US
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Why would a kelly cleric Raise someone? Or, for that matter, any member of the EO raise someone by scroll, or agree to be raised?
An equal question would apply to souls loyal to tempus - for whom dying in battle is an honor..and sort of the point.
_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order
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blackvswhite
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 0:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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why would a velsharoonite do it either? or a lolthite?
they do because it is common courtesy and the expected OOC manners.
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brooksthegreat
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 0:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US
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blackvswhite wrote: why would a velsharoonite do it either? or a lolthite?
they do because it is common courtesy and the expected OOC manners.
I can get it for OOC reasons.. and it's not a question of alignment, it's purpose. A follower of tempus typically wants to die in combat so they can hang out in Warrior's Rest, no?
And a Kelly's very purpose is keeping the dead, dead.. I'm looking for more.. in-character reasons to make sense of it.. heh
_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 0:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Because some elements of PnP rules and lore cannot be translated over to NWN without losing any form of fun, or fairness with other groups.
Playing the head of the Tempurian Order, I can tell you we have had a number of players who's characters have been Perma-killed while fighting for the glory of Tempus. But I outright refuse to make members perma-kill their characters. Espically when it's not a server standard. It would make running the faction impossible on Amia, and also make it extremely unfair when other factions and worshippers of dieties can do it.
Furthermore, dying in battle is not the point of being a Tempurian. Fighting with honour and skill is. If dying in battle was the point it wouldn't be one of the biggest religious orders in Faerun, and Tempus wouldn't be one of the most well known gods, nor a greater deity. As most of his worshippers would be dead as doornails. Yes when someone dies in battle they are taken to the hall of Tempus, if they are faithful of his. But it is not the point. Other gods have similar practices where they take their faithful to some place, but it is not the point for them.
Finally. PvP more often than not, is usually not death, but near death. Sacrafical/Inquistion based stuff is another thing entirely, which personally I'd never engage in unless I wanted my character to be perma-killed. Dying Hunting is considered near death to from what I understand, not actual death.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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brooksthegreat
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 0:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Because some elements of PnP rules and lore cannot be translated over to NWN without losing any form of fun, or fairness with other groups.
Playing the head of the Tempurian Order, I can tell you we have had a number of players who's characters have been Perma-killed while fighting for the glory of Tempus. But I outright refuse to make members perma-kill their characters. Espically when it's not a server standard. It would make running the faction impossible on Amia, and also make it extremely unfair when other factions and worshippers of dieties can do it.
Furthermore, dying in battle is not the point of being a Tempurian. Fighting with honour and skill is. If dying in battle was the point it wouldn't be one of the biggest religious orders in Faerun, and Tempus wouldn't be one of the most well known gods, nor a greater deity. As most of his worshippers would be dead as doornails. Yes when someone dies in battle they are taken to the hall of Tempus, if they are faithful of his. But it is not the point. Other gods have similar practices where they take their faithful to some place, but it is not the point for them.
Finally. PvP more often than not, is usually not death, but near death. Sacrafical/Inquistion based stuff is another thing entirely, which personally I'd never engage in unless I wanted my character to be perma-killed. Dying Hunting is considered near death to from what I understand, not actual death.
Fair enough. Though, it seems I had unintentionally implied that tempusians were semi-suicidal..ha.. I had understood it previously in the "Die a good death" Valhalla sense.
Sorry.
_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 0:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Indeed. You die a good death. But it's just one portion of the tempurian dogma. When your faced with dying, you make sure you die a good death.
I'd probably go as far as to modify it slightly for NWN, rather interpretating as "When faced with death, make it a good death.". Which would mean that when you think your going to die, make them work for it, make them fight for it and never give up. But as I said, even than it's not really the point of being a Tempurian, just one aspect of it.
If I could be bothered, I'd edit Amia's wiki to reflect this. But quite frankely some twit would probably edit it five minutes later to say something else. *Shrugs* I don't like that wiki at all. Gives all kinds of wrong information on Dieties on Amia.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 1:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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To actually answer the question ICly, which is what should have been done first and not this silly "OOC courtesy/OOC rules" junk...
Kelemvorites are all about death... at the being's appointed natural time. Some Kelemvorites might not, of course, on your basis, but some might as well, in some cases, seeing perhaps the murder of a child as an affront to their life potential and raise them as a nod that their life was cut unnaturally short.
A Tempuran might be raised because while they died in battle, it is very likely there is a more important battle that they needed to go fight (and maybe die) in. There's also deaths not due to battle.
Velsharans are indeed more likely to simply animate them as undead but living subjects ae just as useful as undead ones for doing some things. And turning things into undead often loses much of the prowess the being had during life. Simply animating a dead wizard as a skeleton, for example, is wasteful. The resultant skeleton can do none of the wizard's magic, and has lost all its level progression and abilities. A skeleton of a powerful warrior is undoubtedly less powerful than the original warrior was just by virtue of how applying the skeletal template works. MAss raised undead win via quantity, not Quality. Powerful undead also require very high level spells or rituals to create. Living members are just useful to have.
The same logic applies to Lolthites. You can't very well spread your goddess' word if everyone that spreads her word is dead. Sometimes you gotta get the really good ones back on their feet.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Gunz
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 3:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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brooksthegreat wrote: And a Kelly's very purpose is keeping the dead, dead.. I'm looking for more.. in-character reasons to make sense of it.. heh That's a very simplistic way of looking at a Kelemorite, actually. A loyal Kelemvorite's job isn't as simple as that. Kelemvor says that the dead are to die at their appointed time and no sooner. So there are plenty of reasons why a Kelemvorite would raise someone or accept a raise themselves. Of course, it's entirely logical and believable for other Kelemvorites to never raise and never accept a raise if they should die. It's a very basic and overly simplistic approach to Kelemvors dogma, but it's valid none the less. It's a a matter of interpretation. TormakSaber wrote: A Tempuran might be raised because while they died in battle, it is very likely there is a more important battle that they needed to go fight (and maybe die) in. There's also deaths not due to battle.
Yep. Also, who's to say they deem it honorable to die in a battle they feel is not an honorable battle, but a battle against cowards? That's plenty good reason to not stay dead.
Velsharan on the other hand, these guys are all about undeath, sure. But there's nothing in Velsharoons dogma that says "cheating death" is a crime. Hell, I would think a Velsharan would want to come back so they can continue their work and study of the undead. Perhaps even to continue their work toward their own undeath; lichdom, vampirism, etc.
Point is, there's plenty of reason for these guys to want to come back from the dead and/or bring others back from the dead. Things aren't always so black and white in faith. Of course, there would certainly be people that take everything literally and view all things black and white. It's all possible, no one is "right" necessarily.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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O'Raghailligh
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 6:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Location: NZ
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Tormak hit the nail right on the head.
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Herra Tutteri
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 8:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland
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TormakSaber wrote: Kelemvorites are all about death... at the being's appointed natural time. Some Kelemvorites might not, of course, on your basis, but some might as well, in some cases, seeing perhaps the murder of a child as an affront to their life potential and raise them as a nod that their life was cut unnaturally short..
Exactly this. It's even in Kelly's dogma to make sure no one dies before their appointed time. _________________ Characters: Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia 
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 8:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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You could make an argument that no mortal should be so presumtuous as to assume whose life has been cut short and when since it could have been in elemvor's plan for them to die then, but yeah.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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brooksthegreat
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 9:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US
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TormakSaber wrote: You could make an argument that no mortal should be so presumtuous as to assume whose life has been cut short and when since it could have been in elemvor's plan for them to die then, but yeah.
That crossed my mind, but I thought it was better left alone. I was given enough of a plausible RP explanation. I'm happy.
Danke.
_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order
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A Majestic Dwarf
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 11:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Location: Wales
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TormakSaber wrote: You could make an argument that no mortal should be so presumtuous as to assume whose life has been cut short and when since it could have been in elemvor's plan for them to die then, but yeah.
At which point the Raise dead from the Cleric of Kelemvor shouldn't work, seems simple enough to me.
_________________
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Player of:
- Whurak Thunderhammer
King of Barak Runedar and all round Vengeful Dwarf
- Alvian Tegleiwalla
Nerdy Painter Elf with a Silly hat
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 11:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Aurora wrote: TormakSaber wrote: You could make an argument that no mortal should be so presumtuous as to assume whose life has been cut short and when since it could have been in elemvor's plan for them to die then, but yeah. At which point the Raise dead from the Cleric of Kelemvor shouldn't work, seems simple enough to me. Ah, but does the god grant the spells on a purely individual casting basis, paying attention to every spell cast by every follower, or does he grant the spells to the priest during their time of prayer, and leave them to do what they will?
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 11:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, I reckon you'd always need some kind of tacit consent from both the cleric's god and the target's god if you're going to bring back a soul from their realm. No idea, but it makes sense considering you're not allowed to steal souls from other gods.
Most of the time, it doesn't make sense. You can give plausible excuses, but they're just that. That's why I prefer to RP Raise as a powerful revival spell: it restores functions to your organs and smashed body, but it'll only work if your soul still lingers and hasn't passed onto the afterlife. If you've died a long time ago, it requires more in-depth RP.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Galenson
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 11:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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Or you could just accept that a raise is a standard expected and embraced by the Amian playerbase.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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Khylaria
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 13:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 May 2007
Location: East Coast, US
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The question was about in-character reasonings, not "OOC courtesies" or whatever OOC standards the Amian playerbase might hold.
As far as -why- raises might be granted....
When someone dies, their soul goes to the Fugue Plane to await an escort from the plane of whatever deity they follow to come retrieve their soul and take them "home". It's perfectly plausible that when the Raise Dead, Resurrection, or True Resurrection is cast that these "soul couriers" had not arrived to escort the dearly departed's soul to its final resting place. At that point, it becomes the soul's choice on whether or not they want to return to life, or if they'd rather remain where they are to be taken to their home in the afterlife.
Sometimes the soul wants to return to life, and so the spell is successful. Other times, either the soul declines, or has already been taken into its deity's embrace and wants to remain there, so the spell fails. Simple as that. It doesn't always have to boil down to "So-and-so deity wants you to live again." It's not -always- about the wills and whims of the gods.
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 13:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Plus I don't think the efficiency of Kelemvor's service is particularly well known - are you seen five minutes after death, or five years?
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 13:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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I would say a simpler argument would be that Kelemvor's natural time coincides with when it is 'right'. Old guy dying in his bed, right. Guy being stabbed to death in his sleep, wrong.
It could make for some interesting RP though concerning death in battle and matyrdom. Should someone who has matyred themself be granted a second chance so that the power of the matyr is reduced? Honestly, this is really more IC stuff overall to my mind.
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Herra Tutteri
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 14:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland
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TormakSaber wrote: You could make an argument that no mortal should be so presumtuous as to assume whose life has been cut short and when since it could have been in elemvor's plan for them to die then, but yeah.
Sure we could, but we won't. _________________ Characters: Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 15:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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Herra Tutteri wrote: TormakSaber wrote: You could make an argument that no mortal should be so presumtuous as to assume whose life has been cut short and when since it could have been in elemvor's plan for them to die then, but yeah. Sure we could, but we won't. RPly say that the spell would have failed to be cast, if Kelemvor wanted them to die at that time. Since as a cleric, it's from him you get your spells.
Bonkering up his plans = fallen or failed spell.
It's always what I've done when my kelemvorite raised someone. Did a short IC prayer/petition for kelemvor to bring the person back, if they were taken before their time before casting the spell. Works fine IC, for me at least.
_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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Merrien
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 15:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas
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Gravemaskin wrote: Herra Tutteri wrote: TormakSaber wrote: You could make an argument that no mortal should be so presumtuous as to assume whose life has been cut short and when since it could have been in elemvor's plan for them to die then, but yeah. Sure we could, but we won't. RPly say that the spell would have failed to be cast, if Kelemvor wanted them to die at that time. Since as a cleric, it's from him you get your spells. Bonkering up his plans = fallen or failed spell. It's always what I've done when my kelemvorite raised someone. Did a short IC prayer/petition for kelemvor to bring the person back, if they were taken before their time before casting the spell. Works fine IC, for me at least. Thumbs up to this. Seems very reasonable. _________________ 
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Herra Tutteri
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 16:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland
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Merrien wrote: Gravemaskin wrote: Herra Tutteri wrote: TormakSaber wrote: You could make an argument that no mortal should be so presumtuous as to assume whose life has been cut short and when since it could have been in elemvor's plan for them to die then, but yeah. Sure we could, but we won't. RPly say that the spell would have failed to be cast, if Kelemvor wanted them to die at that time. Since as a cleric, it's from him you get your spells. Bonkering up his plans = fallen or failed spell. It's always what I've done when my kelemvorite raised someone. Did a short IC prayer/petition for kelemvor to bring the person back, if they were taken before their time before casting the spell. Works fine IC, for me at least. Thumbs up to this. Seems very reasonable. Sure it does. It's the Kellies who're talking now. _________________ Characters: Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 22:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Just because you play Kelemvorites doesn't make you any higher in this conversation. Don't be "That guy".
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Pony
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Posted: Fri, Mar 26 2010, 23:42 PM |
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Joined: 07 May 2005
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I think you should take Tutteri's comments with a pinch of salt. Dont be that guy.
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Herra Tutteri
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Posted: Sat, Mar 27 2010, 7:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland
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Tormie, Tormie... All this time and you still can't read between my obscure lines?
_________________ Characters: Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia
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Dakotaen
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Posted: Sat, Mar 27 2010, 7:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: Denmark
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Well it was a one-liner.
_________________
Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko
Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sat, Mar 27 2010, 7:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Thats Herra for you. Quick in and quick out, leaving you totally unsatisfied.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Herra Tutteri
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Posted: Sat, Mar 27 2010, 9:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland
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You're asking for it, aren't you?
_________________ Characters: Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sat, Mar 27 2010, 10:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Eh, go for it. Your comments tend to go in one ear and out the other, least till you say something that leaves you open to insult.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Herra Tutteri
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Posted: Sat, Mar 27 2010, 12:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland
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I haven't even begun yet!
Even though Yurell is a silly git and no one reads his posts, I'm not him. I'm more awesome. That is, if you were going to compare us due to "not reading your posts".
_________________ Characters: Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Mar 27 2010, 12:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Herra Tutteri wrote: Even though Yurell is a silly git and no one reads his posts, I'm not him.
I have empirical evidence to show that they do >.>
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Herra Tutteri
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Posted: Sat, Mar 27 2010, 13:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland
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Yurell wrote: Herra Tutteri wrote: Even though Yurell is a silly git and no one reads his posts, I'm not him. I have empirical evidence to show that they do >.> Pffffft! No one else except for me even read this post, so why do you suspect they'd even read your proof! _________________ Characters: Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia
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brooksthegreat
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Posted: Sun, Mar 28 2010, 0:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US
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Ooo. People are still talking in here.. hah. Yay!
It's okay. I'd read Yurell's proof.
_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order
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Pony
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Posted: Sun, Mar 28 2010, 0:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 May 2005
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brooksthegreat wrote: Ooo. People are still talking in here.. hah. Yay!
It's okay. I'd read Yurell's proof.
You silly silly person.
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brooksthegreat
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Posted: Sun, Mar 28 2010, 0:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US
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Phearnun wrote: brooksthegreat wrote: Ooo. People are still talking in here.. hah. Yay!
It's okay. I'd read Yurell's proof. You silly silly person. ..sigh.. I know..
_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order
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