Okay, before I say anything I want to apologize beforehand if I offend people. Sometimes I don't always convey things properly or politically correct.

There's something I noticed and I'm not sure if it's even worth stating or if I may receive a bad response in return.

Believe me when I say there's no past reason why I am stating this, no history between me and other players or anything involved only than my own past within the game itself.

Now I'm not sure I did this correctly in-game, but IC my character has been trying to fix a problem that seems to be occurring actually more on an OOC level. I didn't really know any way to speak about it except in a in-game way.

The problem is simply this: Evil seems to change and good rarely does. Evil is dying out.

Examples: Udos and Ultrinnan both died. Evil temples have ever fallen and been rebuilt. Wyrmhold fell.

Meanwhile....not a single goodly city has fallen and any that have, have been rebuilt in relatively short time.

Honestly it seems every ruin in Amia is a former place for evil. Every goodly city that has been around has remained relatively unchanged in decor, location, or what have you.

In fact are there ANY goodly ruins around at all? I truly don't know of many...not important ones anyways.

Which leads to another point: Good has an obvious edge over evil. This seems to stretch past the IC boundaries into OOC feelings.

Let's face it...no one truly wants the villain to win..not even us players of villains. I think that same feeling has been dripping into the game.

Another problem is the need for some players to see other characters permakilled. I myself always believed the game of Amia to be rather like a Batman serial, where the bad guy attempts a plan, is thwarted, but lives to come back again and wreck havoc. To that end I do not permakill myself...but I also don't want to permakill other characters either.

Now....I've noticed a distinct lack of evil. Sure we have a couple evil characters here and there...and of course Banites.

But at what point does it become a waste of time when trying anything evil, only to always be stopped by troves of good guys? And are these good guy players playing to be good...or simply because "good" seems to win?

I asked this in-game and I ask it now to the players OOC, if nothing else I actually hope somehow to be proven wrong...for someone to jump up and say "that will never happen and your stupid!"....I honestly want this at this point. My question is a simple one:

What will you do when there are NO evil characters? When the only evil you'll face is the DM controlled spawns? When you are left without enemies with actual faces?

When I started playing Quar'Agh, I had believed that somehow I had to succeed with something, that eventually if I tried and tried I'd accomplish something. But the truth is not so similar to my beliefs, and I find that most plots are halted at it's inception. The plans that don't simply get denied by a dm is halted by PvP by the good guys at step one.

In a stupid attempt to win...well.....ANY scenario, I made my character Neutral....to try to avoid conflict. Now almost every good guy has become fanatic, and I'm not sure if it's because they love PvP or if actually...it's because they are running out of prey(villains) and are simply becoming bloodthirsty.

The point even more is that I'm getting tired. I choose not to make a good character and add to the problem I believe I see, because making yet another good guy(even one not fanatical) will remove yet another villain permanently from the roster. I see threads like "where have all the good guys gone?" and I laugh...because I ask "where have all the bad guys gone?"

The truth is they died, or their players went the other side, tired of losing.

Then you think about factions like the EO. Their whole job is to destroy Necromancy. And the players often like to permakill other characters. Players of Necros have decreased dramatically all around. Though in-game it is a great thing, OOCwise it's destructive. What happens when all the necros are practically gone? I suppose the EO will only attack normal wizards who cast negative ray until that spell becomes unused ever. Eventually the EO themselves will disappear.

Does this make the game better? I can't say yes or no. It'd be for you to decide as players individually.

I can say this though: I'm starting to feel like playing any villain is simply a burden, or fighting a losing battle.

Am I crazy for thinking or seeing this?

Please tell me I am.

The reason so few 'Good' areas don't get ruined is because they rarely end up doing something to cause it. Benwick Hollow is the only Goodly Area that copped it in large ruin.

Evil can Win, but Evil needs to start being smart. It's the most straightforward way to put it. Most Good Guys know when to back down when the bigger scope of things starts going for the worse, or when to bite the bitter pill.

Inversely; actively provoking wars against multiple factions simultaneously is unlikely to work in regards to making you win. The resulting destruction is completely In Character, and in regards to how a PW of this size is handled; that's the part that counts. It's impossible to keep everyone happy, and as such it comes down to what's reasonable to occur In Character.

I guess it mostly comes down to In Character Actions against In Character Consequences. Missteps of certain severities can make giant problems. To use Quar'agh as an example; Tarkuul is considered an enemy to most Good Guys, Quar'agh is known to associate in some way with Tarkuul, and Quar'agh is a Pale Master. His alignment may be Neutral, but until given significant, overpowering reason; it's unlikely many will classify him as such.

For any side to 'succeed', they need to foresee what the side effect of any action will be; for better or worse. Gone are the days where PvP Skill is the primary means of working out the result of a larger situation; since no one can permadie without the player's permission, barring specially noted DM Plots.


There's plenty of Evil.
They just aren't being careful enough to make a winning step.

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Mostly Retired

I only play evil. One character at a time, mostly. I will win, eventually.

Yes but I once thought like you Shortslasher.

But the only real thing I see bad guys do is build their own stuff...but knock nothing down.

Ne'sek is a prime example of that.

Patience homie, that is the main virtue any player of evil should strive for. We will always have to work harder for our plot lines, but that is because evil faces opposition from good, neutral, and evil.

Exaggeration: There are plenty of evil characters. Most of evil is just shouting dark oaths in public places in black spiky armour, which tends to be slightly ineffective.

Which reminds me: I need to get back to trying to play a truly subtle evil character. Last time I tried it was much harder than I thought. Boasting is so tempting.

By the way, Kellies have taken plenty of hits, but we are not exactly the most obvious knights in shining armour.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

Sort of echoing Ron here. We're playing in a universe built on the foundation of good against evil, with good being the majority.

Your character has, and will continue to go through a lot of in character hatred. You've chosen to combine two of the most IC loathed character concepts into one. It's not an easy path, one I probably couldn't take.

Evil will never truly be completely gone from this server. if evil had ever been an easy concept on Amia I think it would have taken it's leave a long time ago.

Thing is, there are a lot of very nasty factions active in game. Banites are a glaring example, of course, but the one's not so glaring are none the less still quite active if not a bit more incognito in their efforts.

You're not crazy or stupid, this is just your view of things. Some people may feel the same, others may feel completely opposite. It's a different experience here for everyone. I tend to tell people that are in your position to take a bit of a break. When Amia starts effecting your feelings to a degree that makes you uncomfortable or angry for more than a few minutes, you need to remove yourself for a while.

From talking to you a few times, I do think you tend to get a bit flared up and see OOC intent where there very well may be none. I'm not saying this to insult you as a player, only to hope that you'll see these moments in yourself and recognize them for what they are. Moments.

I play a necro. I know a lot of them that choose to keep themselves well hidden, myself included, so there's really no decrease. Your character has chosen to take a radical step and be open about it. This will cause, as you have seen, a lot of conflict. I don't fault you at all for assuming this, because I get to see a great deal more from where I stand. Blessing and a curse.

The very concept of villainy is fighting a losing battle. You used a batman comparison, and since I love batman, I will too. Arkham asylum is filled to the hilt with amazingly well rounded and beautifully conceptualized characters who are evil, and who almost always lose.

So yes, it's a tough road, but one I admire when I see it trodden.

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We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

There is a simple answer to why most evil areas and factions end up falling into ruin. An evil population will generally destroy itself in order to achieve it's goals or members of the population will ruin others to bring that goal to fruition. On the other hand members of a good population will work together in order to achieve their goals and be concerned about the others in their population. That being said unless an evil force manages to overpower the good population and run them from their city the good aligned city will live on.

That scenario tends to hold true in the real world as well as in Amia.

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"Toss me...I cannot jump the distance. You will have to toss me." -Gimli

I love seeing evil done well, even though I don't play any evilies on Amia. The last thing I'd want to see is Amia become a "Power Rangers" scenario. Where "Evil has popped up here!" and all the heroes ride out, squash it, and ride back to their cities and wait for it to happen again.

The major thing I see with evil being RPed on Amia is that it doesn't seem very goal-oriented. It's always "Let's see how we can piss people off today." (Take that with a grain of salt if it offends, again, I'm not involed with Amian evil factions). And I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean most of it seems small-scale, one-time jobs. Setting up a road block, charging fines, threatening people to swear allegiance to your god, it's all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day on Amia, someone's getting pissed, running back to town, and telling a band of goodies to come stop it.

What happened to gaining influene, ruling by order(if you're lawful Evil), corrupting things? One thing Good has it easier than Evil at is their goal. Simply put, most of the time it's just "Stop evil." Evil has got to come up with ideas and get a foothold. Another thing Good already has the advantage of with settlements. So I have to agree with Ron on this, work smarter, not harder.

The most successful type of evil I've seen in my RP experiences is not the kind that shows up and makes demands out of the blue, but the kind that gains power, then slowly arises from the background under the guise of "doing the right thing". (nod)

Yeah you're right.

I admit it...a few things have occurred recently that left me feeling really bad about playing at all.

Mind you it actually isn't about what happened recently with me...that was simply the last straw in a sense.

Here's the thing about those batman shows(which I also love..heh): Usually the bad guy at least almost succeeds before he is defeated...or at the least accomplishes something that causes Batman to act in the first place...and that's where I'm getting at.

How many plans can a guy come up with when they're all halted at step one? Even plans that I have afterwards seen other people pull off?

Mind you this is a personal take on things...so it may not even apply to anyone at all.

I felt really bad when I suggested Mummy guards for tarkuul and was denied, only to see House Ussen D'Vhid dominate monster creatures and be allowed to keep them as guards. I admit it....I felt beyond low at that moment, because I see everyone either pulling off simlar ideas, or even using my exact ideas themselves and getting away with it.

Maybe my own personal failures could be the cause for me misconstruing that all bad guys have a hard time.

If so I'm sorry if I made anyone mad. And no, I am not insulted by anyone's posts. I've never came on these forums with those thoughts and until someone actually insults me(it has been done before) I'll never feel insulted by you voicing your rightful opinion....even if I disagree with it.

Accomplishing things in conflict on a PW with respawn abilities is extremely difficult by nature. It applies to good aligned characters and factions as well.

It can be very frustrating indeed.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

The biggest thing about Evil, which I thought I could hack it on but really couldn't and thus why I don't really play my evil characters anymore is this:

In order to really achieve with Evil, you need to:

1) Be patient. Going for the quick win only works if you have the resources honestly in place to both make the win happen, and back it up afterwards.

2) Think beyond the box. Think just beyond the typical 'Wow, I'mma turn people into zombies or threaten to kill them or enslave them' .. yes in many cases to really achieve these kinda threats, you need DM assistance. But, hard as DMs can be, they can sure make things interesting for ya even when you do fark up. I'll demonstrate with a screenie from Hispara Ralynn:



Contextually, she was trying to jump for an item which was believed to be of value in what was being done. It was a long shot, but given she was fanatically devoted to her master, she attempted it regardless. Even with the results being a mistake, you can get some interesting RP out of it.

3) Accept that you by all realities are not gonna be looked on kindly, especially if you're open about your evilness. Play the cards right, and you can quite possibly make many of the good-aligned factions look foolish. You just need to find the vulnerabilities, and exploit them for all they're worth within reason.

I think Evil, properly done and with a willingness to accept good's likely coming after you with a vengence.. can be done quite well.

One thing I forgot to add:

Enjoy the little things.

This wisdom applies in Zombieland, and holds true for Evil on Amia.

If I'd play a villain my goal would be to corrupt other people and bring them down like the Joker and the white horse Harvey Dent, just more subtle. Suppose I take much influence from W40k here, with the whispers from Chaos and such. Though that kind of RP needs trust in other players. I can't say if many players on Amia would allow their chars to be subject to such influence and just play their hero no matter what. Gonna try out?

This is my personal take on it, and I am sure not everyone sees it the same way as I do.

What irritates me as a player (now with Juliette) I want her to fear the big bad guys, like for instance Quar'agh. That is something evil (the certain type of evil) would appreciate as well if their characters got more of such respect I would assume.

I love playing fear on a character, who does adventure but would be desperately afraid to go toe to toe with a being who indulges in the dark arts to aim to turn itself undead. My problem is that if I see the people hanging out in the forest or in cordor chit chatting, that becomes very difficult for me to play.

It is one thing I would hope the EO pushed the server in the direction of. If such open evil such as dark necromancers are not openly tolerated and their doings hated and feared, they will sceme in their dark places and not be a regular sight to chit chat with about tea and giggles. It also gives credit to their evilness and underlines they are dangerous.

Just remember this (again with the batman analogies.) Although the joker has been trying to and failing to thwart batman for 60 years, In those same 60 years, batman's never stopped him, has he?

The double edged sword...and I'm being completely honest here...is when you start to take things personally, then people see you as someone who takes things personally, then they take it personally, then immersion is fucked and everyone has a bad time. This happens quite a bit, as it will whenever personal passions clash.

The trick is having passion for your roleplay while understanding that you will never, under any circumstances, get people to react exactly the way you'd like them too which is the beauty and the tragedy of playing with actual free will havin' peeps who play their PC's the way they think is right, just like you do yours.

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We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

All good characters need to accomplish most of the time is stopping evil from accomplishing their goals. By default good tries to keep the status quo while evil wants to change it, which is naturally more difficult.

A server without evil pcs can work very well on another hand, playing on one like that now. There's no pvp or character conflict, just quests and events. Two big advantages this brings is the lack of occ bickering between enemy-ed players and the lack focus on builds and nerfs, none really cares if a class is overpowered or not since you work together and not against each other.

I like competitive games.

But here's the thing.

Every bad guy I have RP'd with knows Quar'agh doesn't do "Let's turn everyone into zombies..har har har"

I hate PvP personally...LOATHE it in fact.

People are telling me to be patient and I understand...the problem is my character is very old, I've already been plotting deep plots(it's all I like anyways) for many years.

It just seems like everytime I even come up with a good plan that somehow am always left out of the loop.

Obviously if you really want to talk about manipulation and corruption I can give you two instances...one is even so obviously publically a manipulation it's pathetic.

Ask Mynna's playr about whether Quar'Agh can corrupt anyone.

Axleighs character(Katsumi) post in the Tarkuul forums is proof enough that Quar can manipulte the hell out of someone's thougts.

This sounds more like a personal problem, rather than evil as a whole.

There just aren't very many likeable evil characters. Where are the guys who smoke, drink, make fun of their friends and laugh at their mishaps? I like that they suck at being a Pharaoh or a Globetrotter. I like that when someone gets in their face they just yell 'Bite my shiny metal ass!'

Yes, I know that being a villain flies in the face of hanging out somewhere. But there is far more in the whole Evil continuum than just villains. You can be evil without having a master plan for world domination, y'know?

Don't be sucked into this trendy villain crowd. Unless you really want to play one.

Word, I think I just might make some drunk, womanizing, D bag now.

The biggest problem an evil faction faces is not defeat, but stagnation. It is very, very hard to accomplish anything meaningful in a world where the NPC's have so much control, and where the DM's in many cases don't want to see evil flourish and accomplish goals.

How many of the current DM team actually have an evil PC as their main character? How many as an alt? That should give an indication of the difficulty we face in making any significant changes on the face of the PW.

I'm not saying there are not DM's who will not work with us. But major changes have to be agreed upon by the team, and the overall attitude of the team is, we don't want evil to win, even temporarily.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Maybe the idea is not to make Amia about 'I win' when it's not winning that is supposed to be fun, but participating. Competition should be enjoyable.

For characters in the setting winning a battle is just an outcome. They probably don't give it as much thought as your average NWN player. They don't point fingers and shift the blame when they lose, and they don't accuse the deities of playing favourites, even if it seems like they are.

In the end you have to ask yourself, what's more important.... the fun or the winning?

Human nature. If it doesn't go as we want it, we treat it as failure.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

How exciting is a hockey game that ends in a tie? What if every game ended that way?

Someone has to win in order for the struggle to have any meaning. There need to be both accomplishments and setbacks for both sides.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Depends on how the Hockey Game ended up a Tie there.

If both teams were lackluster and didn't do a darn thing, then yeah that'd be kinda damn boring. (as is I don't watch hockey).

If both teams played their rear ends off and it was tied because both put out their fullest effort and that's how it came, different story alltogether there.

The largest problem that I think exists along these lines is the fact that from my personal experience we have a lot of that overwhelming majority of good guys doing "good" for good's sake. What I mean by that is that there exists an absolute unwillingness in most good characters to act in a way that could cause their status as a good guy to be questioned. This results in extremely short sighted actions by the average good adventurers who are under the "people who make trouble are automatically bad" mindset. Despite the fact that in many cases very evil outcomes have resulted from the short sighted act of "good" I've rarely seen the character reevaluate their actions, they just shrug it off with an "I meant well" and continue doing the same things. Much like the "chaotic stupid" characters that we all hate, these "lawful stupid" characters present major roadblocks to RP that doesn't involve the "good guys" winning. Unfortunately these characters are not called out nearly as often as their evil counterparts because it's far more acceptable for an adventurer "helping" a town to act like that than say an adventurer running around the frontier killing people. To me at least they are both equally damaging. I'm not trying to blame anyone in particular for this as it's pretty much human nature for such things to happen and it's impossible to regulate or alter.

Basically if you want to go against the establishment you have to lose, and nobody likes that, the trick is losing in the right way to further your goals.

But what if it were always a tie? What if the refs disallowed every goal for fear of having the losers get mad and quit, or have their feelings hurt?

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Look...I honestly don't want this to turn into a flame or anything.

But in a sense the implications are not even so much about the overall winning or losing. I understand Quar will lose...he's a villain and thus his destiny is to fall.

But when everything seems halted at it's very inception, practically the first steps, then what is left?

And yes, in a sense 762 makes a alot of sense in the DM team. I am not trying to imply you guys are bad, in fact I think it's your goodness that makes it so difficult to see things fail when it comes to your goodly cities but grow...and to let its villainous places crumble.

How many DMs would lament the death's of Cordor, Kholingen, or other goodly cities as opposed to ones like Tarkuul, Ultrinnan, Udos, or Wyrmhold?

It would be nice if there was some sort of list I could reference what I actually could do. Then at least I could incorporate any type of goals or have anything to actually work for.

A valid point.

I don't think Hockey is quite the best analogy here though, to be rightly honest or if we do wanna continue it, let's do the following.

Is it fair to honestly throw an NHL team with a dedicated budget and similar against say, a small town budget team of volunteers who doesn't try as they might have the resources of an NHL team?

Perhaps not.

Problem is, this isn't a hockey game nescessarily. Or if it is, it's a hockey game where there's a bet made that the losing team and who they represent may have to suffer whatever indignities within reason the Winning team might demand.

No Grymia, it's more like why the referees choose to handicap the bad guys in game one through to the cup.

We should at least win a few games, even if we don't win the final cup.

This is why the bad guys usually win in the second book of almost any trilogy.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Despite my recent thread about retiring my drow PCs because I could not exactly play them as I wanted, a friend convinced me to come back with a simple sentence:

"You can be an evil drow at the surface"

And I agree. As long as I am smart about it, it might work. To be evil you do not always ought to make huge plans of world conquer and destruction. There is much more to evil than that.

Hendrack gave a very good example: the evil that corrupts without the good guy not noticing until it is too late.

A single word, if smartly spoken, can start a catastrophe without you so much become the number one suspect.

Another thing that helps is having a level head, knowing that no matter what you can or will do, your chances of succeeding are very slim. They are not impossible, just difficult to achieve.

Coming back with my drow yesterday, it is what I am trying to do.

You always need to keep in mind that the only evil that wins, is not the one who conquers the world, or a city. It is the one, who even after his death, people will remember his vile deeds, that memory will hunt them forever.

Moral damage is more destructive than physical damage and that is what an evil character should, in my humble opinion, try to achieve.

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BlackDahlya

Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath

On a continuous server like Amia, the fight between good and evil, or any polar opposites, is more like an endless waltz than some game where someone wins or looses at the end.

The problem is, Evil as a whole on Amia is trying to lead the dance by doing the stuff I said before. To which Good just has to "follow" every time evil tries something by showing up and squashing it. If Evil doesn't like this, they either have to do some more powerful leading or take a back seat and wait for Good to make the first move and then try to flub it up.

I'd like to see Good do some crusades every now and then, actually. Think about it. The few times we've had a crusade(think back with the flight), it's in response to something Evil has done/is doing. That's been the dynamics for a while. One side just has to change it up a bit.

- Spike

The DM team have to have some reservation about the falling of particular cities or towns, otherwise the major parts of the module would be changing every month. They sure aren't going to put pressure on the development team on your behalf, so that you can see some place in ruins or under new management.

And the reason for this is that there are players who use those cities, whether their characters are good or evil or neither, and if they aren't given a realistic opportunity to participate in the defence then what exactly is the point in having cities? You'd be better off with a hut in the middle of nowhere, least you wouldn't be a target.

You conveniently neglect the fact that Cordor has been destroyed once already. If you really want to do that, then there's your precedent though granted, that was a series of DM events. But such things are not done lightly. You need a good story, a good plan, total commitment and an opportunity. Otherwise it is a non-starter.

Why?

Because people have to be given an opportunity to get involved, over a long period of time. You can't just show up with a bunch of siege machines and expect the city to be gone by reset.

Because cities survive by building high walls, employing competent defenders and defences, and learning about potential threats before they show up at the gates. You need a plan that works despite the odds being overwhelmingly in the defenders' favour.

Because assuming you actually succeed, people expect you to actually do something with your victory instead of crawling back to your bunker. You have to commit to enforcing a new order, or at the very least establishing a government that is sympathetic to your faction's aims. Life has to go on.

Because no plan is going to succeed unless the planets and stars are aligned your goals. If everything is not just so, someone will find a loophole, or an incantation or some magical book that is capable of thwarting your invasion. Or they'll stick a sword through you and send you to a Hell dimension, thwarting your end-of-the-world mojo.

You're not playing close enough attention.

There's no such thing as evil or good on Amia, there's just visionaries and heroes. The visionaries don't like the way things are and go about trying to individually change it, the heroes don't like the way things are either but consciously try to stop the visionaries because it interferes with what they want.

In the end, they're all just whiners. Hence the third party of all mighty DMs just tell them to sod off and make do with what they have. You can't put a dog and a cat in a heshin bag and expect them to get along, so you give the dog the back yard so they feel more important and leave the cat to its own devices because you know it'll adapt quickly to it.

And somehow that all relates to good and evil. *nod nod*

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

Oh puh-leeze, don't even go there.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

At the risk of sounding jaded and disenchanted, I'm inclined to agree with you there Galenson.

As a player or group of players, its very hard to achieve great things for 'good' (if 'good' in this case equates to good aligned faction) or 'evil' (if we take 'evil' to mean evil factions). By great things I mean server or module changing things. For (mostly) very good reasons those changes and acheivements can't or won't be registered or recognised by DMs and players.

I personally think the best way to work with ideas of good and evil on Amia is through your own roleplay. Don't worry about what you want to achieve at the end of the day, instead focus on how you will do it to model how you view good or evil behaviour.

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Vaylek - The Worst Guy
Pu Liu - Descendant of the Great River Dragon

I will say that's it's very possible for evil to "win". Several years ago, Tinnerai snuck into Winya Ravana, slayed it's priests and laid ruin to it's temple. The Tinnerai compound still holds some trinkets of this attack in it's halls.

The problem isn't that, as some have implied, evil is not as smart as good or anything even remotely close to that. To think so is absolutely ridiculous. The problem is very simple. The problem, if you want to call it that, is that evil will inherently fight amongst itself and good will work together. Combine this with the fact that there is most likely many more good or neutral characters on Amia than there are evil and it's not that hard to figure out why evil doesn't win out more often. The best laid plans of mice and all that...

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

It's important to win hearts and minds. When people like your roleplaying and remember it weeks, months or years later, then you're going to be top of the list of players that they want to roleplay with in the future. Changes to the module are nice and all, but as Vaylek says, they're hard to achieve.

That reminds me of some RP with my Drow.

She was faced with a young elf adventurer who absolutely despised Drow. Fair enough.

I could've killed him but there was no fun in that plus I dislike PvP. So I just paralyzed him and then taunted him. He fortunately sprung into it and vowed to kill me.
So I pointed out that many would stand in his way, with a mocking grin of course.
He said he didn't care and would do everything to kill me.

Now that is a road from Good towards evil. And I, and the other played, enjoyed it.



I remember the time when Ankh'remun came out of his tomb and the whole desert was flooded with undead. Who was responsible? Some evil faction that was hidden very well. Who stood against the undead day and Night? The EO.

There was always at least one of them there to watch the Border, sometimes even more.
The other characters who did not belong to the EO eventually dropped out and moved along, but they kept standing and fighting and they did vanquish the evil eventually.

Still, for days the dessert was swamped with undead, the city was completely destroyed and everyone had to retreat. (Might mix that up with another event)

I can't say anything about the bad guys, really, because they never showed themself. Which is a good thing. But I just assume they did a lot of work themself.

Its not so much about stagnation and the DM unwilling to do changes, but its more the lackluster attitude of the players "I wants it now!!!! I can't get it!!? Puuh! I am out! Bye!"

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

Cities are built upon Good peoples. Look at all the cities and towns of Amia - Cordor, Kohlingen, Wharftown, Uhm, Howness, Endirs Point, Actand, Brogdenstein...and more..
..sophisticated societies of class and politics...not easily destroyed by a few weeks/months of persistant evil guy RP.

Evil seeks to destroy and take over all that the people of these towns have worked for...no surprise that Evil groups are faced with huge opposition.

Tarkuul is an Evil city/settlement.....ever seen any goodfolks attempt to take over destroy and indoctrinate the residents? If so, I bet it would not be an easy task...else it would have been done already...same with Darkhold Keep.

Can't touch goodly cities practically(or have some sham illusion of affecting anything like the case of the Tinnerai attack on Winya...no offense but big whoop the attack obviously didn't do crap, Winya is still there.)

and I can't build up one of the only bad cities...

What the hell can I do?

Why would I even care to attack a goodly city when it's a complete waste of time?

PvP others? That sux. Manipulate others? It gets boring ALWAYS having to be in the shadows and disguised. Besides when you get caught every damn goodly person gags you so you don't speak, the RP gets crappy, and then I just want to log off at that point.

Having played in one of the best evil factions on Amia for 18 months I refute everything thusly mentioned about the inneffectual nature of evil on Amia. Yes we ran into DM obstacles including 5 hellballs and multiple Greater Ruins but it was still the most fun I've ever had on Amia because everything we did was Months in the plotting. And because the DM team was forced to enact deus ex machina against us to stop us. This makes our efforts credible in my eyes.

The only reason I stopped playing said evil faction was because I get bored with all my characters after about 6 months anyway, so I perma-ed him and moved on.

I don't personally think it has anything to do with Good or Evil but people holding onto their one "main" character until they've caused themselves stagnation. The same can be said for DC's. Most people who have their main also have their main place to RP, the same people to RP with. I even noticed some of the major alt-culprits on this server play different characters that are exactly the same and hang around in exactly the same areas. I don't get why you'd choose to play an alt thats exactly the same as your other characters.

/two cents.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Anyone can claim to not have a clue what the hell they can do, it isn't an evil-only thing.

For example, just today I thought 'what the hell can I do?' right after my character heard about yet another confrontation, somewhen, somewhere.

My character is slightly more flippant and jokes about blowing up the general geographic area as a way of solving the problem but since she's joking or talking big, she doesn't wander off and follow through.

Then, she has a bit of character exposition as she admits that actually she would hate to irrevocably lose her friends, even if it meant that those threatening them would also meet the same fate. In fact, she would probably want to die herself if just one of her friends met that fate.

Hey, look at that. I accomplished something. It's not as shiny as gold, and it's not as tangible as an occupied city, but I can definitely say that I'm a small step further on than I was yesterday.

Don't get all hung up about accomplishing things which are shiny and/or tangible. That's a fast track to frustration station.

I did what now?

Two DM's whom I don't know destroyed us when we got to violent to fast. With hellballs, following a pvp we didn't start, during an event we spent four months building up, in order to protect "stuff". I'll PM you the details if you like.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

How exactly did the actions of 2 DMs get conflated into a blanket decision by the DM Team to pull a god from the machine on your faction?

Because, Yoss, DM's are only answerable to the DM team not the playerbase. The action of any DM in the game environment is a reflection of the DM team as a whole. You choose them after all. You set the standard. If a DM panics, which i truly believe these two did not believing that we would actually annihilate an entire faction in minutes without classic powerbuilds, then that is an issue with the selection criteria for DM's. Players have no say in who becomes a DM afterall.

We didn't hold any grudges either. We just shrugged and moved onto something else.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor