Thank you, this is the response I was hoping my unelaborated questions would bring. We've been accused of having impossible standards in the past, but the above rationale is precisely why. And I am interested in the story about that incident in my PM box.



Heh. I was interested in that approach, and I tried to jump in on it as a DM. The first night I did something about it and determined that the Banites earned themselves a tenuous win over a crucial part of the NPC population, I posted on the faction's forum and was immediately told that my fluff apparently wasn't fair to the whole faction who wasn't online at the time and to please delete the post. So I did and never looked back. As a DM, I have been bitten so many times in trying to DM for the Banite faction that it is ridiculous. This doesn't stop me from doing little things with them from time to time when the opportunity arises. I have very thick skin. But I also do not tolerate petulance and what that earns the Banite faction is casual neglect. Not an "out to get you, ruining your day". But definitely neglect. Sure, I have thick skin and it doesn't affect me emotionally, but why be a glutton for punishment? Why keep sticking your thick skinned arm in the wood chipper? It doesn't hurt, but it is unnecessary.

As for where the rest of this thread has gone, I think it is clear to a lot of people that Mago's long since had enough of things he doesn't like about Amia. He's justified in some of them. And his overall beef has raised a major question for me that I've honestly never been able to answer, the same question that gets raised in politics.

Are DMs representative leaders, or direct leaders? Let me put it on the board with the topic of "evil in Amia".

This requires you to acknowledge one fact I stated once before, and although I loathe repeating myself, I will do so again here for the purpose of the point: the mindset of the Amian playerbase is good over evil, the story of the heroes as PCs. Other servers and settings (I've Ravenloft, specifically) are the other way around, where it is an evil world and good is mostly laughed at expect when it is amazingly good and then it lives the kind of horrible life evil claims to live on Amia.

Direct DMs are proxies of the playerbase. It means we do what the players want, more or less. We do not go against the grain of their thought, their wishes or desires, and merely seek to do what is the most ideal for their fun. This is the kind of approach Didi and a few others have recommended in the past, that DMs are the mindless facilitators of a purely PC environment. DMs do not change the world out of the blue, but only by what players do (right now, we do both...not equally, but yes, both.)

The direct DM acknowledges the playerbase's overall mindset about good and evil and makes the universe reflect this by supporting the efforts of the good PCs and factions moreso than they support the efforts of the evil PCs and factions. At its most extreme, the direct DM eradicates "evil" from the PC populace and makes it purely an NPC force to contend with.

The benefit of the direct DM is that the playerbase is typically guaranteed to get what they want, whether or not it is good for everyone involved.

The representative DM is the DM who acts "on behalf of" or "in the best interests of" the playerbase, and is not their proxy but rather a person invested with the authority to serve the playerbase's needs even if it means going against the grain and doing what it takes to make their RP environment fun. The representative DM may recognize that the playerbase wants good to triumph over evil in their universe, but may also realize that this is unrealistic and doesn't make a very good story, and so intentionally pisses off his good constituents in order to appease his evil constituents. And then turns around and maybe does the exact opposite, swinging the balance back and forth, giving evil its day, giving good its day, sometimes on the same day, sometimes not, doing above all what is best for the story.

Representative DM'ing fails when you do not have mature players and DMs. And the argument against it as that where direct DM'ing pisses off one group permanently but makes the majority happy all the time in a very utilitarian style, representative DM'ing merely pisses off good one week and evil the next and good the next and evil the next and ultimately keeps "pissed off" as a standard somewhere in the playerbase.

The argument in this thread as that we've become very much direct, rather than representative, and I cannot really come down and say what it is right. If I use my basic instinct I can, and that's to be representative, and I do this, but I'm just one DM.

I will admit that I have quietly opened little doors for evil to take more advantage than they've ever dreamed of taking, even without informing any other DM of what I'm doing. At first I thought I was being too damn subtle and no one is seeing it, but after reading this thread, I think I realize what's going on. No evil is looking for it. It has been impossible to accomplish certain things in the setting for so long that evil PCs and factions are gunshy and they either don't see what's going on or they do and don't trust it and that it will be like every other time and nothing at all will come of it.

Which makes DM'ing very difficult for me when I do not have the trust of the playerbase.

Mago hey. I've asked this before, but I'll ask it again: if you quote me (especially if you quote me from a closed forum), keep the original context, please. Don't pick a comment from a larger piece of text or a topic of a wholly other subject and reinterpret it to suit your current argument needs. Thanks.

The comment Mago quoted on the previous page is referring to OOC arguments of players in particular. If certain players or factions produce a lot of OOC grief to players or DMs, then those players or DMs probably don't want to deal with them and don't have to if it's no longer fun for them. DMs are no different from players in the sense that they do this to have fun and enjoy themselves, after all. Just wanted to clarify this.

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Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR

Prod me for development-related stuff.

First and foremost, for the love of all that's holy can people keep their petty backbiting and squabbling in PM's please? The last whole page has been basically nothing but 4 people bitching and attacking each other on a public forum. I don't wanna read that B.S. and I doubt anyone else does either. Keep you damned dirty laundry where it belongs, out of sight of others. The fact that someone with some actually authority hasn't stepped in and said something about it yet amazes and disappoints me. Whatever happened to the document you had to agree to to even post on these forums? You know... a Code of Conduct? I thought we were supposed to be mature, grow-ups here. Not little bratty, snot-nosed children standing around on the playground calling each other names.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Well this topic exploded after I went to bed.

I don't have much to say really. Mago has been around longer than I have. I have seen some of the stuff he is bringing up but not all.

I do know that bias against evil and/or our faction exists on the DM team, in vary degrees with individual DM's. Some none at all, all the way up to you Tormak. You prove it every day almost, most recently with your almost daily attempts to misquote and mischaracterize me as a player on these forums. You did it twice in this very thread in fact.

I don't care that you're biased anymore. I knew it coming back. What annoys me is when you continually misrepresent me and try to paint of picture of me that doesn't exist. You do that to a lot of people in fact.

So I'm going to politely ask you here to knock it off, at least with respect to me.

The other thing Mago said I agree with, is with regards to DM plots. We don't really bother doing them anymore, for the reasons he stated. The issue is not so much that there aren't DM's that will work with us, it's that there is always one DM who will throw up roadblocks to everything we try to attempt.

I learned this back in '07 with the Wharftown plot. Semidi and Yoss did a fantastic job running that for us, and both will have my eternal gratitude as a result. Ditto some of the other DM's who lent supporting help for individual events, and of course Disco (and possibly Kung?) for the plot-related area changes. But the OOC headaches resulting from the HUGE conflict of interest with Tormak DMing there have put me off of attempting anything else on that scale.

Wharftown was an epic plot, which generated a huge amount of RP. Some of it excellent. It also generated an enormous burnout from all the OOC crap involved, not just in me but almost everyone in our faction who took an active role in the plot.

So yeah, after that I'm extremely gun shy to submit anything else on that scale. And I think with good reason.



I think that was a misunderstanding more than anything else. When I explained to the player who posted why you posted what you did and what your reaction was to her post, she was somewhat mortified. I believe she posted a retraction shortly thereafter.



Speaking for myself, I haven't seen it. Maybe it is too subtle. Then again I'm back only a few months after a two year hiatus, so I'm probably missing a lot of background lore that would help me see things. I'm slowly getting better though.



I personally trust you Yoss. But as you say, you are only one DM.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

I actually thought I made that post justice. Since when you wrote it, and the way you came into that long past discussion, was pretty much clueless and insulting.

But I'll be fair to you, and quote the entire post:




There would have been other, more appropriate posts to quote from that thread. But... unfortunately, I can't actually get to any of them. Because some DMs deleted them. Oh well. Wouldn't want people to read the rest anyhow, right?

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

This all happened while I was sleeping and I wake up to read it. Yes, it is over-the-top and there is a lot of airing of dirty laundry going on (PMs making it to the public forum is a breach of trust Mago will pay for in reputation no matter the great cause).

I considered an instant lock with a cooldown time, but what's been said has been said and it is there and Tormak has struggled to keep the thread from degenerating into its worst form by actually responding. In other words, it isn't near as bad as it could have been.

The tone of my post at the top of this page should explain why I chose not to lock. Although the conduct is questionable, I'm being magnanimous in allowing the discussion to continue - while trying to guide it towards a more positive and resolution-oriented goal. There's a point here being made and it is one I think needs to be heard (even if it is being heard for the 4th or 5th time in the last year).

If this fails and the meanness continues, ainjyll, rest assured, the lock will come.

Yes, that is a note to any little bratty, snot-nosed children posting in this thread. Keep that up and you're going to kill anything of value here.

C'mon Tormy. Do you honestly believe I would ask for things purely based off a forum post?

Of course I've been plotting plenty of things. Alliances, trade, and of course some refurnishing(or attempts anyways).

I would never bother to post at all if I didn't feel like I've been doing things.

But as a player I can only do so much....EVERY dm knows very well that any player can only do so much.

So Tormy my question is: At this point what COULD I do to earn that?

My point being I have done as much as any player could do.....and now I'm asking for assistance...DM assistance.

Talk about going to sleep for a night and a damn shooting war starting, huh?

Alright. My humble opinion, we need to break down what needs to be said and try to find ways to improve the situation that everyone can agree to.

Problem is, it's kinda hard to break it down for certain. I can say this much though..

If you wanna be evil and do much, you need amongst the other things I mentioned in my prior post, patience. *And a strong enough skin as well as maturity to be able to seperate what you're doing to characters from the players beyond them*

Mago, you'll probably agree with me in saying that Darthion did NOT become as powerful as he was overnight, neh?

Yossi, you've said you felt stung by prior RPs involving the Banites, correct?

Tormak, it sounds like you've had to put up with a lot from the Banites and they you and it shows here, correct? (This is not to say it is in any way right now, a bad thing, merely confirming some general measure of fact)

First thing that needs to stop IMHO if we're to get anywhere is the (censored) slinging. That's gotta go.

Secondly, while I agree there is gonna have to be ground where both sides are flat out going to refuse to give, points need to be found where both sides can find what they need somehow.

Thirdly, if people are so riled I might offer a proposal and I will say this frankly. Play a different game for a while if something's pissing you off that much (or if in general you just need a break to get something different). *Trust me, I have * Alternatively to this, going to workout as I'm about to do is another way to vent off stress (which paradoxically shouldn't be coming from an activity of recreation but I admit I feel it as much as many so.. yeah)

Anyhoo, I'm off to work out. Anyone who wants to talk with me about this more in private when I get back has my PM box (or in some cases, my MSN)

I've played evil before, a Cleric in fact. Evil can win. It has every opportunity within in character means to do so.

She had a lot of interaction with her faith, over her time she kept the faith, true to the dogma she thought. (Which was skewed.)

She was involved in the fall of Ne'sek, convincing the Good guys that the Settite priest causing the ruckus was a heretic and worked her way in, sowing chaos, discord, and inevitably her actions aided in the crushing of the Temple, and destruction of the crystal via espionage, trickery, and sabotage over the course of RL weeks. No less than 3 DM's interacted with her during the course of that event in varying capacity ICly.

Evil won that day.

Good regrouped. Fought back, with tenacity. Had evil intervened at that point, and forced them out, it would have been possible to make a true change. However the 'short term' victory was over, and the true interest of Set in the area was limited, he had/has more major things to deal with elsewhere once the enemy temple was razed. A single cleric of Set had no ability to countermand the amassed good guys forever. Both the greater Cleric and my priestess who servedwere inevitably hunted down and slain permanently.

The Undead were driven off, the good guys began working to rebuild. Another chance to destroy the temple mid construction to defeat morale. Or even combat the fact the temple was a 'foreign' god, and sew discord that way among the local people; lost opportunity for the bad guys. There were opportunities in this plot to continue the campaign that was started but weren't taken advantage of by the bad guys. From my understanding the powder-keg of this fuse which set it in motion was set by some other evil players. (Not a huge amount of them either) It just wasn't followed through on.

What I didn't do:

I didn't bitch about losing. I didn't complain about dying. I stayed IC as much as possible. When I couldn't it was done via PM's in game or via MSN.

I look towards that event as win-win-win for everyone involved, good, evil players and DMs.



The DM's aren't out to get you. They're there to make sure you put in the effort to get things done. They're there to keep things fair for everyone.

They -are- out to get something out of you. IC Groundwork.

Things don't just 'happen.' Plan. RP. Contact, IC legwork. Work work work. When it fails, dust yourself off and do more. The DM isn't there to help you. They're there to be that stone walling force that exists IC. If you can't go through, go under, go over, go around, or sneak in through the gate. I've never not been given a chance to attempt something by a DM, if they had the time to do it. I've kept my goals in my attempts realistic. Some of them have blown up spectacularly in my face and my PC was lucky to escape with their life.

Banites are in your face. Their power-base on the isle is too small to behave in the way they do and get away with it unscathed. I would dare say that the Banites have been given the leg up, by DM's before to allow them to be not completely overwhelmed and utterly destroyed.

The Banites have a history of doing heinous, visual, gratuitously scary/evil acts. Terrorism. Terrorism breeds a response. The sheer fact that good aligns and dog piles you is an example of what they do works. Make people afraid. When people are afraid they fight or flee. Unfortunately these people have the ability to fight back. Maybe not defeat 1v1, but en mass, in attrition.

The Banite behavior on the isle is in fact contrary to what actual power they have tactically. Before the Might of the army of true bastions of power on the isle the Banites are a Battalion of hardened soldiers versus a sea. They might be able to control small portions of land by force, but they can not win a war against a citystate that way. As a player I feel the Banite faction has painted themselves into a corner from an IC point of view. They've been known for doing bad stuff, universally hated/feared. So when they act up universal reprisal is a given.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

We really haven't been given anything, Dwagin. You could argue that there might have been opportunities to blow up our faction area that have not been allowed by the DM's for one reason or another, but I'd counter by saying that the Kelemvorite temple is still standing for the exact same reason. And I won't even get into the invincibility of Kohlingen, which is huge killer of RP.

In terms of how we behave, of course we expect IC reprisal. That's the entire point. We're trying to generate conflict RP.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Only during once instance would I say I actually felt stung, and it had nothing to do with RP. In fact, I've never really roleplayed with the Banite faction seriously. I've just been a DM doing things for/around them.

The other stings I did not feel, but one does not need to feel a sting to know that it is a sting. A paraplegic getting whacked in the shins with a baseball bat is still aware he's being treated poorly, and he has the luxury of rolling away with indifference, as do I.

Also, do not include me in on this like I've got a claim to stake or ground to give. I don't.

You also aren't doing the players with complaints here any service. It takes a lot more than just patience and maturity for the player of an evil PC to get what they want, and that is what Mago & Co. are trying to point out. They're noting that an intentional or unintentional bias exists.

I took it a step forward with the direct/representative question. Whether or not it does exist, should it exist, because we know the bald, bare fact facing us: the overall playerbase expects good to win and evil to fail. In a direct DM world, evil is marginalized (as it is now) in the playerbase, or removed altogether, at its most extreme, in favor of the greater NPC evil. In this world, evil dudes are losers no matter how you cut it.

In a representative DM world, the DMs go against the wishes of their majority and try to force at the very least a balance of good and evil, or prolonged periods where evil rules the day and the majority good has to work to defeat it, all the while doing what they can to emphasize the important and relevance of the PC evil rather than marginalizing them to a more controlled NPC evil. In this world, everyone has to be a loser at some point.

I apologize, I was just trying to find out where there might be room and means availible to help improve things for everyone's enjoyment.

Although, I do disagree in regards to you having no claim. As a DM and as a longtime player of this server, you do have a claim as any other to the general enviroment of enjoyment.

Finding DM assistance can be an issue, but warrants its own post about a separate cause. I'll go make that post now. That is all.

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Those trees won't burn themselves down. (by Maryn)

Grawrg. I go to sleep seeing a relatively calm topic, wake up to a topic that's gone to rage and back to calm. Pah.

I'm only responding because I got called out in this thread when I hadn't even posted anything beyond an opening "Evil can do stuff; they've just got to change tactics" post. Ouch. Anyway; I actually know what a fair amount of it is about. Well, Less 'Know', but 'Reasonably Estimate'.


Now, there's a post in the Banite Forums about their OOC Conduct which was, indeed, posted by myself (as I didn't mind taking the flak for it as the 'Team Representative'). And yes, I did say (and stand by my statement directly), that I myself would remove my hands from the Banites entirely from a plot, story, event and DM-RP context, and do what I could to avoid them unless completely necessary.
This is my statement, btw;


It's the personal segment of the quote Mago posted earlier, since that's the part that relates to myself, directly. I would, however, like to draw attention to a certain line, which I have underlined. My primary qualms with the Banite Faction is simple; the Out of Character. The In Character behaviour, while sometimes giving people a headache - player and DM alike - is performed to the best possible standard available for a faction whose deific goal is to do the old power-play. In fact, it's the same reason I still stop by and toss DCs.

Now, there's one situation wherein I had gone against this, because the aforementioned problem that was referenced in that OOC Conduct threat had greatly subsided. At least to the point where I believed it was a comfortable bet to assume that if a problem arised, there'd either be a Private Message, a DM Channel conversation, or a [Tell] or two to discuss it - as to allow these matters to be handled with as little of, well, this thread as possible.

That was, of course, the Black Caravan. I'm smallcasing Occurance A as it's more the background/context to the actual situation that I believe drew this ire.

Now, the Banites and the Black Caravan had encountered problems before the leadership had changed again - two ambushes (one in the Skull Crags, one in Cape Slakh), one direct attack on a Stall (Quagmire), and many direct threats of war. These I had mostly glazed-over as an OOC Courtesy, because response would have given little time or possibility to get things on the move. The attacks weren't retconned, but the severity of the organization's response was intentionally, greatly reduced, until they were presented with a simple "Stay away from us, Or Else".

After a time, Darthion performed the step I had been hoping someone would perform amidst the many people whom had drawn ire against the company. He went forward, made a political statement to the boss direct, and they talked (This was at the Wyrmhold Ruins, in case you forget which talk I mean, Mag). At this point it was decided that if they wanted to work together on anything; Sil'yer wanted a 30mil 'buyout' to compensate for damages. The response was agreement, and stated that it'd be worked on, and that in the interim; the two forces would completely ignore eachother.

Darthion had stated ICly that 30mil was easily doable. I made note of this and used it as a 'basis' for any change higher or lower that need be performed in time. Most any challenge I provide of this nature, I am for (though admittedly miss at times, as happens) 'damn difficult' but doable.

Unfortunately, shortly after this, the Banites had attacked the Black Caravan once again (before the original 30mil was fronted); directly. This brought forth its own retaliatory attacks. At this point I considered; 30mil is 'easy', so 50mil should be 'doable'. Sil'yer raised the stakes in response to the attack, and gave the faction 1 RL Month to either amass 50mil, or find an alternative. On DM Paper, the required wealth was 25mil as a minimum, should they have taken political or other, less combative routes to try handle them and lower the price. Also on DM Paper; they had 3 months, unless pushed further, as Sil'yer would ICly try to get as much coin out of it as she could. Even if it means waiting another 2 months for them to amass the funds.

During this period, the Black Caravan would occasionally seek out a Banite, without attacking, and ask about their 'pay'. Simply as a reminder so players didn't forget that there was a problem, and it wouldn't blindside them OOC. I think Katsumi was going to go insane from the amount of times her walks through the forest were interrupted by annoying BC Archers asking questions.

Unfortunately, at least from what I could see, nothing was being done. Some time before the attack, I made an OOC thread on the matter and the rest, and warned them that builds (and by this I meant combat) was not going to offer a solution to the event. This was an attempt to guide them to attempt means that would get them out of it, because - as much as I may dislike the faction, personally - I don't want to see them get destroyed thousands of times.

Eventually, however, the faction prepared for the assault, and lost. Faction area destroyed, buried under an avalanche, and the Banite's managing to escape only by the graces of their Lord Bane whom was proud of their righteous, ironwall tactic to stand up against the 'tyrants' they were faced with. The fight was hard, but I was ,sincerely, impressed.

Eventually that all settled, the BC backed off, and simply returned to "OK, Stay away from us now".

That's our preface, so we can see where everything is. Anyway, moving on to the recent situation;

The Black Caravan still has a "Screw Off" approach to the Banites. They aren't liked; but war is expensive, and as big as Sil'yer's monstrous, epic ego may be - she isn't going to turn around and instill a state of mass murder unless necessary.

As such, everything went normal. As I typically do when running the stall, I roll one of my old, DnD d100's to work out where I'm setting up. The roll was 71; Skull Crags Peak. I briefly cringed, but then considered the notice by the Banites at this point proclaiming Merchants were permitted, and considered it's significant distance to Guldorand, the Banite Castle, and the Banites' current operations.

As such, the shop was setup. Due to events on the wayside involving BC involved PCs; I couldn't use my standard merchant NPC (Jack), and as such used Sil'yer as I occasionally do, as the merchant. Quiet stall, no one showed up, until a Banite did. Unfortunately, at this point Sil'yer herself (whom I like to believe I've presented quite well as being very easy to provoke, so people know not to) was ordered to leave the area. Once resistance was presented, various vieled threats, and eventually direct threats were presented towards the company. This provoked the BC's more recent proclaimation of combative threats.

Unfortunately, the response I got to this was empty space for quite a while. As it turned, however, there was plenty going on in OOC in regards to tweaked players and faction leaders, throwing certain accusations and insults around in response. Each of which ended up being quoted directly to myself, thankfully. Each time my response was simple - "Please tell them to PM Me".

I may be a prick OOC, and much of the time I do blame my own, social upbringing for that. My family is ARMY, and my home town is quite a sharp, cruel area. Add in the typical, more 'blunt' social graces of Australian culture and you get a nice big cumulation of, well, unpleasantness. Speaking my mind in a rather 'sharp' manner comes out quite rapidly when I'm not paying attention and proofreading. (I've already had to clear out 7 lines from this post as a result).

However, I do respect players in an OOC fashion, as long as they can actually tell me what the problem is. Hence why the BC's war against the Horsemen, and against the Eternal Order the second time, were both cancelled (albiet I had to do those through straightout railroading of BC actions).

If nothing is said to my face, and all I get is "Grr, This Sucks", I'll assume it's simple player frustration (as happens when you get into a tough situation), and continue IC as necessary.

Thankfully, the situation has since been handled by a very smartly acting Gurth, whom left Sil'yer nothing to work with - forcing her to back down. (This is why you haven't got a response to your previous IC letter btw, 762. Epic Props.) However, much of the OOC that I'd managed to catch wind of surrounding it continues, and as far as I can see; continues in this thread.

Hence this long post clearing the air. I don't appreciate being called out without reason, if no one's so much as sent me a PM to inform me of something they disagree with.

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Mostly Retired

Grymia, you're reading in my mind. I too think that the problem with most of the nasty evil charcters is their stereotypical thinking that fits the black'n white perception of the things. They're too trigger happy and they manifest their evilness way too much if you ask me. Of course I'm not talking about every evil player out there, but only about a part of those who I've met. Most of the time it was like Grymia said in point no.2. Frankly, it's fine with me, and I really enjoyed most of RP I had with those guys, but evil doers won't achieve anything with that "lifestyle" except of, maybe whacking some do-gooders on their travels and very soon being whacked back. I know that my Grok also fits that description, but I like to think of him like a simple minion of some master villain (-insert evil laugh here-). And yes, the evil, plotweaving, obscure (dunno if it's the right word) and patient villain leaders is what Amia needs, if you ask me.

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Grok Hedzpounda - Shaman Mallulu Buck-Tooth's personal bodyguard;
Scottia - the hideous old drowish crone;
Arthur of Llorkh - a former guard from the far east. Now a warrior-o-fortune(TM).

In hindsight, the best thing to do would have been to simply send the DM team a PM noting that a bias seems to exist.

I'm not saying that this discussion hasn't been worthwhile, but there's definitely nothing I or many other players can do about a perceived bias. Especially if we aren't there to see it.

That said, you guys aren't the only ones who have become gunshy. And it's not because I'm afraid that getting a DM involved is going to backfire in any way, I just can't see why they would be interested in what I do.

What do I do? Networking. Instead of going out and finding people to adventure with, I stick around at the social hubs and try to get to know other players' characters. In most cases having another player whose character knows two other characters and can break the ice, that's quite helpful.

Anyway the thing is, I can't foresee when I will need a DM's help to do that, or when it would get interesting enough for them to pop by. I can see why they would find it banal and want to be somewhere else. If they feel the need to bias themselves towards players who mix it up a bit more, I'm going to let them.

Plotting in any way shape or form around NPC's requires DM cooperation, which is why we don't do a lot of it. I'm seriously reconsidering my position on that at this point, though.

Ron, excellent post btw. Two thumbs up.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Wtf are you talking about Brainsplitter?

The quotes from that thread, and what supposedly caused the DM team to make the statement it did... had absolutely -nothing- to do with the Black Caravan. And I have no idea how you manage to pull the more recent BC happenings into this.

Secondly. I remember the conversation Darth had with the BC boss quite well. The offer was 12 mil. Not 30 mil. And it was never stated to be "easy".

I mean... it's shit like this, that pisses me off. You, as DMs, should if anything stick to the truth. Yet you don't. Both you, Ron, and Tormak, twist things to your benefit, to cover up your own shit.

I have zero respect for that, and nothing short of disgust.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

No, I don't.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Yeah, you do. You've done so repeatedly in this thread. And in other threads as well. And you continuously do it towards other players whom you for some reason dislike, in order to try and bait them into a flamefest which they can not possibly win.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

No. I don't.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Right.

Tomorrow, after I've had my nights sleep... I'll search through your posts, and call you out on the bullshit then.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Calm down.

A; I said in the very start of the post, that it was a "Reasonable Estimation" of what the constant jabs were about. This means i accept I could be wrong, especially since I noted it as seperate from the 'Knowing' point. Since no one has decided to send me a PM on the matter or actually say, directly, what the problem is - I am required to make guesses based on what I hear second-hand.

B; Me referencing that topic was saying that the post about 'not doing anything' with the Banites had indeed changed, since the problem about it was fixed (again, noted in that post). IE; You aren't 'Blacklisted' events wise.

C; Darth did mention it was easily done, and could be done within a reasonable amount of time, too. I could've sworn, however, the price was 30mil when they were talking at Wyrmhold. However, given that was nearly a year ago, I could be getting that number from somewhere else mistakenly.

Seriously, Mago. Cool it.

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Mostly Retired

You were probably thinking about more recent "constant jabs" then. Well... the most recent BC business is just regular DM screw ups as I see it these days, and as such... of not much concern.

There's no point in ever arguing against those. Because if the Banites (in particular), object to DM actions, we are instantaneously proclaimed as "whiny, immature bitches that takes everything into OOC". So we pretty much decided to suck it up, and stay the hell away from anything that would give you (the DMs) an excuse to try and portray us as such... again.


The amount was either 7 mil or 12 mil. I think it was 12 million though. Just... for reference.

The problem isn't the amount itself. The problem is how you used a false amount of 30 million, to somehow validate the 50 million you later on had the BC demand in an official release.

That's the very basis of twisting truths to your benefit. We often refer to that as a form of manipulation.


You need to stop doing that, Ron. As does Tormak.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

I don't know why you and 762 absolutely obsessed with trying to prove that I am the biggest evil that Amia is ever seen. It is a level of dedication I've only seen from a few other people.



he just said he was wrong did you even read his post how can you even use that as an insult against him when he admitted he was wrong he's not twisting the truth he's agreeing with you.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

If, after a good night's sleep, you still feel the need to tirelessly search the forums to find phrases and statements uttered that seem inconsistent with the statements here and yet can easily be explained by change of opinion (it happens), misspeaking (it happens a lot more), and simply not giving you the whole story the first time around (it happens all the time), please take the war to PMs with Tormak. You've listed him as one of the DMs you still hold respect for, so I think you can manage that.

Attempting to "call him out" on incongruencies you believe that you remember is likely going to embarrass you and force him to explain himself unnecessarily a hundred times as he often has to do in order to get it right and in the grand scheme of things waste a lot of people's time and put a real damper on the more important concerns at hand.

I'm hoping, though, that after a good night's sleep you won't want to bother and will do what we all inevitably do, Tormak included - grip a bullet between your teeth and chew for the sake of the community.

That's because you continue to lie to me, and the rest of the community. You continue to try and manipulate me with your bullshit. I've said enough is enough. I've told you numerous times to stop it, Tormak, yet you seem desperate to save your own skin. And by being persistent with your proclaims of innocence, and everyone else being a jerk off for calling you out (including banning them, apparently, for doing so), I'll do my best to reveal the ugly side of you, Tormak.

The sad thing is, that I honestly spent the last year defending you as a person, as a DM and as a contributor to Amia... since I've genuinely considered you to be among the few good DMs, through and through, on the Amian staff. And I still consider you to be exceedingly capable as a DM, in most aspects.

Yet your attitude, your bullying and your disgraceful consistent attempts to belittle specific, undeserving members of the community, has completely ruined the respect I, and many others, had for you.

And that's greatly disappointing.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Mountains out of Anthills, dude. Btw; Constant Jabs.


That's one from this thread. There's a few other references too, and I'm not going to dredge through other topics right now. It's 7AM.

Honestly, I still believe 50million was plausible as a final, post-warnings, IC Price with the intent of lowering it by 50% with RP. Given no one at the time approached me OOC about it, I assumed there were no OOC problems on the matter.

It's not twisting the truth if you're simply wrong, btw. As far as my memory is concerned, it was 30 mil, because that's what I remember. As such, that's what I posted. Given it was nearly a year ago, and I remembered 30 mil, I tried to recreate what my reasoning would've been to make the 50mil declaration.

That said; all of that is water under the bridge, and not what's currently being discussed, since you said that issue had nothing to do with the ire.

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Mostly Retired

I won't be embarrassed. At all.

And I've been chewing on that bullet for a loooooong looooong time.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

locked, info follows.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

I have browsed this thread with increasingly raised eyebrows. I may be a bit linear in my thinking but I had this assumption we are running a game and we generally have grown up players. This thread suggests otherwise on both points.

Anyway, I'll unlock this tomorrow and I suggest you (the overheated party) stops making posts that file under "going under the belt for some bloody little detail that 99% of the players don't care a fuck about".

Thanks.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

Be nice and sensible from now on, right?

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

Sounds pretty swell to me.

Anyone else get the pounding desire to play an evil character?

Quoting myself, trying to keep this on track.

In a way, evil is never meant to win in a setting like Forgotten Realms. It can conquest, destroy, anything, but it is not supposed to last because this is a setting made for heroes.

A way to cause permanent evil is make it so the damage will not be physical, but mental/moral: making a good man fall by commiting evil acts or just doubting himself.

When playing evil, you need to remember that no matter how hard you fight, you are meant to lose. Perhaps not in that fight. You might know victory for some time. But it will be a very short time.

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BlackDahlya

Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath

Here's the thing I think people are not seeing.

We tried lies, smart words, disguises, and much patience, up front assaults and from behind.

NOTHING that anyone has mentioned evil isn't doing, evil has already done and failed, so please stop sayng things like that...it only aggrivates me to keep reading you telling me to do things I have done hundreds of times.

Now yes...we all know evil is supposed to lose....BUT, imagine Star Wars without "The Empire Strikes Back", or any other long winded series.

In every single one...even the little Batman cartoons...there's always a point where the villain if nothing else, looks like he has the edge.

It's what gives the heroes something to fight for...and that's my beef.

Evil in Amia doesn't last five seconds against good.....and what's worse it ALL boils down to PvP and nothing else.

Because I can't do anything but what I can provide and all I can provide is either a chat or PvP, I can't even set up something that would even have to make a fighter or pally think.

This is where the DMs come into it. You guys should be assisting evil more often than good. We know there's more good guys, we know they will prevail..regardless, and we know anything outside DM intervention will cause every good guy to resort to PvP to win the day...so there you have it.

You should be helping evil...to give evil that ever temporary edge that causes the heroes to act at all...and also if you want no one to resort to PvP then allow us, the players, to set up events that do not require pvp.

As it stands now, without DM assistance all we evil guys can do is talk and fight.

And I'm sorry...but I have been here too long and have heard DMs make statements like that before "Sure we will help" yada yada...

In most cases the DMs are helpful.....except in planning.

I can get DC items from you and I can talk to you when something goes awry....yet I can never ask for help in any plan that requies MORE than my simple spells, patience, or anything short of straight on DM assistance.

So would the people who keep insisting that evil isn't being played correctly please read more carefully?

The point is withut DM assistance we have NOTHING but PvP and CHAT. AND YES!!!! I already did the stupid corruption by chat. Once people find out, the heroes gag you after the PvP you. It makes any instance of you being captured torturous in terms of RP fun, being unable to speak at all.

Do you have any concrete suggestions for improvement? Like "here we got an example, at this moment xyz would have been a huge help for me".

This is not an annoyed remark, btw.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

I do, and I'm the best, but I am unsure if I will post it yet or work on another way of achieving it because I suspect that if I post it nothing will come of it. I think amia is giving a few opportunities to do it already, though, to be honest. Strangely enough, my solution is really an older type of solution and its pretty simple truly.

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

DM assistance comes from asking. (A la viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47367)
We are more than willing to help with events. A simple PM is all that is needed.

Geld: As to your stipulation that we should help evil more than good, my policy is to oversee a situation, and allow the players to forward the plot. I try not to stick my hands too deep into player to player relationships and hostilities. It gets messy, and complaints are abound. Yes, good normally triumphs over evil, but being evil can take lots of forms. You could be a constant thorn in the heroes side, corrupt the goodies into superbaddies (lowering the morale), or work in the shadows to forward your goals (A much more difficult way of doing things, but much more rewarding).

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Persephone Ashallin - Persistant Salandran
Vrok - Cudgel?

I think you're wrong about heroes having something to fight for when the villains are 'winning' - that's more of a stereotype created by so many Hollywood films. It's just as likely for your average hero on Amia to fall into the depths of despair than summon the courage to press onward.

In a film, you can't have so much character exposition - it takes too long when you have to cram everything in two hours or less.

If you try and work a stereotypical plot like Star Wars, don't expect everyone to line up and play along, is all I'm saying.

Asking for DM assistance is an alright idea, but I wouldnt use it. The problem is that those comfortable with a DM are more likely to ask, and hence OOC bleeds over into IC. Same with the DC system imo. I think that the only reasonable answer is DM events, but I have a rather different model for them than the current DM team employs. Simpler events, truly, in the manner of DnD adventures. Less railroading, more d20 system and let the players go with it. Here are some examples:

***A Dark Lady Visits***

A priestess from Eilistraee's promenade is coming to visit the Shrine of Eilistraee, as well as perhaps a few other settlements, to gather information and discuss the affairs of the drow of the isle. The drow of the shrine are responcible for her reception as well as potential protection should she be attacked.

Will she be captured? Killed? Used as a bribe? Be impressed with the state of the shrine and its drow? Make a few enemies? Draw the attention of llothites/vhaeraunites? Lectured by qirlan?

***Gold Troubles***

Rumours spread that the Temple of Waukeen is having gold troubles due to other traders outdoing them. Are there any truth to them? Can the priestess be gotten to for a price? Can the Temple be pushed into going completely broke? Can some evilers make a deal with her in exchange for some gold? If she continues to struggle for gold, will she be replaced? Lose favour of Waukeen? Emotional break down?

***Angry Orcs***

The orcs to the north of cordor have had it with being beaten down on and a new leader amongst them has forced his way to the top and promises to crush their enemies. With his leadership the orcs, while still not particularly strong, have grown dramatically in number. How will the players respond? Will they try to incite the violence? Aid them with funds/gear to bloody the inevitable conflict? Pin the blame on a particular group and suggest a response? Kill the leader? Try to reason with the leader? Run in and kill them all, damn orcs?

***A Night At the Opera***

The famous Opera 'forums' (sorry, had to) is coming to the isle to perform. They are offering a free nights performance, intending to build up hype. Who will attend? What will become of it? (hidden plot: the lead opera singer is going to use enchantment magic to attempt to manipulate the crowd into ____, will the PCs present make their will saves?).
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The idea with these mini-events is that a DM can run them at a fairly leisurable pace, some of them almost do not need a DM really. What the DM can do is establish a character quickly then have that character lose properly, by dying completely. They are also designed really more as stimulus for players rather than the story entire.

I suspect nothing I have written here will get anywhere, but I am writing it so when someone randomly digs up the forums in like 100 years they will say, "wow, that guy was onto something and all of them didnt pay attention".

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

[quote=Wyjyn]***A Dark Lady Visits***

A priestess from Eilistraee's promenade is coming to visit the Shrine of Eilistraee, as well as perhaps a few other settlements, to gather information and discuss the affairs of the drow of the isle. The drow of the shrine are responcible for her reception as well as potential protection should she be attacked.

Will she be captured? Killed? Used as a bribe? Be impressed with the state of the shrine and its drow? Make a few enemies? Draw the attention of llothites/vhaeraunites? Lectured by qirlan?

***Gold Troubles***

Rumours spread that the Temple of Waukeen is having gold troubles due to other traders outdoing them. Are there any truth to them? Can the priestess be gotten to for a price? Can the Temple be pushed into going completely broke? Can some evilers make a deal with her in exchange for some gold? If she continues to struggle for gold, will she be replaced? Lose favour of Waukeen? Emotional break down?

***Angry Orcs***

The orcs to the north of cordor have had it with being beaten down on and a new leader amongst them has forced his way to the top and promises to crush their enemies. With his leadership the orcs, while still not particularly strong, have grown dramatically in number. How will the players respond? Will they try to incite the violence? Aid them with funds/gear to bloody the inevitable conflict? Pin the blame on a particular group and suggest a response? Kill the leader? Try to reason with the leader? Run in and kill them all, damn orcs?
[/i]

Gonna run through these all at a time:

- The First plot, while cool can just as easily be done with another faction just as easily. (though: it can be ran with any number of other factions done right.

- Gold Troubles: Honestly, given the background of the server it'd be pretty hard for Tristana to NOT be doing well as a Priestess of Waukeen at present. That said: Again, might be able to do with another faction, OR maybe if you do insist on havingi t go about her way, maybe it was some extraneous force causing such. (A force unfriendly to the Commonwealth maybe?)

- The Orcs plot if you could find a different Niche then say , the Horde War might be able to pull in players new and old. It'd take some tweaking but it's a possibility.

- The Opera plot: Another interesting concept and hook, but I think Cobbsie used a slight variant of it not too too long ago. Still, there's options open if you wanna modify it a little.

Bryce, (Your not Grymia to me, you'll always be Bryce!) I believe Wyjyn is not offering them as actual suggestions, more like, just setting an idea on how 'simple' further plots could be. As the first one could easily be something along the lines of a representative from the Lord's Alliance investigating the inner state of Cordor instead of an actual Ellistraeen whoredancer investigating the shrine.

See what I did there, Gers?

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I quite like the Eilistraeen one still, to be honest. Might spark up some UD drow roleplay with the Tinnerais. In fact, maybe an assassin has already been sent after her from elsewhere in Toril and rocks up in the amia UD to try to appeal to them for aid.

The idea is that the DMs basically do more to animate the world in ways that are not really 'epic'. They are just short, throw away stories that may potentially have an overall affect. So..for example, maybe the banites could attempt to brice the waukeen priestess into advertising their faith and the DMs could argue that Cordor's banite population increases a bit...perhaps banites become unbanned from Cordor. See where I am going with this?

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

How would we do that, if we can't get into Cordor?

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

PM to DM: Use a disguise. A good one. Send relatively unknown members on missions of subversion and bribery.

You can go into Cordor. Just gotta be careful. And/or pay people off. Hehe

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Persephone Ashallin - Persistant Salandran
Vrok - Cudgel?

Beside that the temple of Waukeen has got a little autonomy as I know. If the High priestess would allow someone in the temple who is actually banned from Cordor then she can do that by giving him asylum or I dunno what.
I can be wrong though...

As a matter of fact I do have a concrete suggestion for improvement.

Example: The Kobold/Goblin war. Nothing to do with paladins of Kholingen, nothing to do with Cordor, or anywhere else...it was between Kobolds and Goblins and their allies(Not dredged up random strangers who want to PvP).

Instead of letting it degrade into paladins and goodly tripe intiating PvP and ending what was a story that had little to do with them, a DM could have prevented what was a good story thus far into degrading into a PvP free for all by helping us and not DM killing one of our own to help the already outnumbering and PvPwise more powerful good guys..who then laugh at us which just killed the story, people left and that was that.

Instead what a DM could have done was actually throw in some decent goblin spawns and DM killing the goodly powerbuilds who threw PvP into a situation where it isn't wanted but no one complains because then they will look like they're complaining.

As far as for what I had tried to achieve or have asked for:

Kholingen sacked by crap golems made by a psychotic drow jester. Denied because goodly kholingen players who always win every PvP instance anyhow...wouldn't like it. (mind you even the First Matron had invested in it)

The Planar vessel that would be eventually a tool for other players to enhance planar travel RP without the need for the ever easy Plot device called the portal. Denied...though I am not sure why.

Tarkuul Mummy guards(even books in Tarkuul say Mummies make better guards) as opposed to stupid looking skeleton guards. Denied.

Hell....paved roads in Tarkuul.

A Mythal forge in Tarkuul.

Control of a slave to train in the correct use of a dominate monster spell even. Denied...the DM felt it was "too cruel"....it was a Dominate monster spell...not me sticking hooks into his flesh.

****************

Now there you have it...that's only what I asked for.

Now this is what I thought of and never asked for, because I knew I'd just be denied anyhow..or worse...good folk will come in and just interrupt eveything with their Chaotic stupid PvP trip:

A way to kill the Elder brain that runs the Underport. All Illithids are run by an elder Brain. Kill it and the Illithid are practically helpless. Then allow the drow to take Underport, or set up trade between Underport and Tarkuul. This will probably happen now that I mentioned it.

Planting Tarkuul in it's own plane of existence, thus making Tarkuul the first "Living plane of existence". It would make it safer than flight, explain the strange turf it has, and be a more safe safe haven from good(which seems to have the edg ALL the time anyway). Of course you could see why this was denied...I mean it only changes about Tarkuul what?...absolutely nothing..not even the terrain..just the idea...plain to see why it would be denied.

A born PaleMaster. A child PM that that wasn't evil and caused (well except the many weird fanatics) good to question killing this child who was only a victim of circumstance. I almost kind of sort of asked for this but was denied due to the "severity" of the idea.

Poisoning the spirit of Kholingen or even corrupting it so the very land becomes corrupt(of course I'd never ask to do this you'd say no in a heartbeat)

Finishing off Ne'sek once and for all by creating a storm like affect that permanently exists....it will always be dark, rainy, and have lightning and thunder...all the time...eventually people won't want to live in Ne'sek..and maybe call it something like "The StormLands". Come on now..this is a pipedream.

**********

Why are all these useless ideas? Simple. I need to rely on DMs to help me.

You asked Disco.

*edited* A concrete suggestion would be a list of what evil is even capable of getting away with and setting up a system where the villains can make villainous requests. It will be ONLY for villainous requests(good characters get the hell what they want anyways right...and they win in the end...so they don't need to request jack squat)

I'm sorry to ask this, but you have made this entire thread because you lost a pvp against one paladin and some druid/ranger figure?
Serriously...a palemaster blocked the road along with a group of goblin. People obviously didn't like that. We even gave you warning and terms which wasn't necessary from my side. Quar'Agh is a palemaster that gives Yaston the reason to cut his bone arm off.

Goodie Kohlingen people who win every pvp? I'm sorry to tell you, but you are pretty much wrong about that.

Beside that there are differences between goodies and goodies.
The Kohl folks don't really have much event either....just to give you an example. Do we cry about that? No.
I know that a defeat sux in pvp, but deal with it. We all do that.

I would say you're having a lot of trouble getting your ideas off the ground, and I have a theory as to why.

All of them require module changes that can't be done on the fly, and therefore need to have most of the DMs who check the request in agreement. Start off smaller. They aren't unreasonable as end-goals of a long progressive sequence of tasks, but a getting single character doing these things in one event is going to be an uphill struggle.

You can make a difference, but try gradual progression and working with more mundane resources, rather than relying on the fantastical or powers not normally available to you in-game. Try to involve other PCs in the execution of the idea as well. PMs as direct requests rather than general statements towards the DM team work better.

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Those trees won't burn themselves down. (by Maryn)

Yes Yaston, but that is only a SMALL part of what the problem is.

In essence...I have no way of circumnavigating CHAOTIC STUPINESS(now present in ALL GOODly characters nowadays), because in the end I all have is PvP...and chatting...and since MANY GOODLY PLAYERS throw the first punch...I can't chat..so I only have PvP.

I don't know in how many ways I can put this but you make my point brilliantly.

And don't you dare tell me that Leggolas.. do you know how many times I've gotten other players involved only to tell them it was all denied? These things I knew needed basic resources and stuff..and I've been here for five years already...I'm not some newb who just popped in out of the blue.

*also my PM as you say is still sitting unread in my box*

I was denied before I even got the building blocks...and I had every piece plotted out....even with the abilitiy for random changes.

Sorry I sound mad...trying more emphasis since some people repeat themselves.