Geld, what Leggomi said was perfectly legitimate. I know you're upset, but he's right. Module changes take an (unfortunately) long time to get approved and implemented. You can make a request, then do what Leggy said, work toward it in small ways. By the time your RP has finished, you are far more likely to get what you want.

Also: You are not the only player on the server. We have to accommodate upwards of 500 accounts every week, many with multiple characters. If every single person was granted module changing plots, we would quickly become overwhelmed.

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Persephone Ashallin - Persistant Salandran
Vrok - Cudgel?

We do give back outs because that is a rule of the server and you had a chance to back out last time when we had that so called horrible pvp at the frontier. You could have moved back to the Bramble woods and would have saved you from the pvp.

Anyway, if you consider me as a horrible, chaotic rper who is a jerk oocly, then you are right. I am. You should ignore my rp because it would only do a favor for yourself.

Exactly why I suggest a list of some sort of what the hell any bad guy can do that doesn't involve "PvP this person...rinse and repeat." Or "Chat with this person tl they kill you".

And see...Lutra's response is the reason why even backing out of PvP gets you blackballed.

*the event was called "Last Frontier"*

Your "out" was for us to "get out"...when we just wanted YOU to do the same..and WE IMPLIED IT...THOROUGHLY.

Um... are you seriously complaining about a plot that's pretty much been running itself? Man, I haven't really don't much with it because I made it and then realized I have nowhere to go. You're literally complaining about a plot that hasn't even been run. That's... well, I don't know. All I did was change some spawns and I've talked to a couple goblin PCs and an orc. That's really about it.

And no, I am not going to make "decent goblin spawns" (read: CR 40 goblins), because that completely destroys the suspension of disbelief in the area. I told this to every single PC that wanted to get involved, because it is relevant: These are goblins and kobolds. You are, at absolute max, going to see something that's like CR 7. That's just how it's going to go. That is the plot. Deal with it. I am not making Cr 50 super goblins just because you feel I need to punish people for getting involved. That is absolutely counter to the idea of running a plot in the first place.

You act like I have handed this event or plot off to anyone and are quick to blame the DMs for your own failings, like you have many times in the past. I don't even know what is going on with 99% of this stuff, I am simply keeping track of who is siding with who and attempting to update as I can, but there is very little I can genuinely do with 15 level 30's in a plot that is about CR 3 goblins. And if you did not know that before, now you do.



No, the Kohl players have nothing to do with this. Do not blame them. You have had this explained to you 3 times now, and once in public. I will do so again. This was denied because the DM team felt that golems made of, literally, poop, was entirely immature and not the sort of environment we want to cultivate on Amia. We do not do "potty humor". It was, in a word, childish.



Because a magic plane and time travelling airship flies in the face of all lore. Sorry. Tarkuul explained this ICly to you why it doesn't work, and you too kit well. Apparently it seems, little did I know you were going to hold a massive grudge against me for it, for giving you a one on one meeting with the City of Tarkuul, an honor barely half a dozen PCs have ever gotten over the entire lifespan of its existence on Amia. I will remember this next time you demand my presence.



This is IC. You need to keep it IC and not take it OOC. Mummies are higher maintenance, more expensive to create and more difficult to control, as opposed to an army of easily replaceable and maintainable skeletons. But you could have learned that if you asked ICly, instead of me now needing to lift the veil and explain it OOC.



Undead are tireless and efficient: They need not paved roads to reach their goal. It is a small, desolate wasteland of an island. Life is not cultivated because it is not needed. Civilization is cultivated by a few small pockets of the living, otherwise, it is a waste of time when it could be better spent on the endless eternal search for power, because knowledge is power. But you could have learned that IC too. Another veil lifted and another failure.



I have seen more people compalin about this OOC than I can count, but only one person even put forth a half-assed effort to attempt to do anything about it. the rest complain and do nothing.



You have never even asked about it. At all. You are complaining about something you have not even attempted. And more over, it is something you should be handling ICly.



Maybe there is a way, but we're not going to tell you. You need to roleplay and find out. A dead elder brain does not make Illithid helpless, BTW... it makes them very pissed of and suddenly very individually cognizant.



This is not lore possible. Moreover, it was not asked for. I have a very good memory of requests and a big forum to search through. It is not there.



Complaining before you have even attempted something, yet again. And asusming hat our answer is, without even bothering to try.



See above. As well, you need to understand that destroying cities is not something we can simply do on a whim. Binds are tied there, quests are tied there, Nes'ek especially is one of the only real entries into the Khem area outside a single portal in Wiltun. Some places act as hubs, and Disco puts a lot of work into making them, and needs an equal amount of work to create a new area/areas, scripts, redoing a large section of the module, and that is not something he can do everytime some joe with with a summon decides he wants to knock people around for a day before the good guys come up and kick him out. This is not a table at PnP where the DM can do these things off of the power of imagination, these are physical/virtual creations that are taking dedicated manhours from developers and designers to create over the course of days, weeks, months. When someone wnats to destroy a city there comes a lot of questions that need to be asked among the devs and DMS. "Why do they want to do it? How does it happen? How does this affect the area and surrounding areas? How much Devwork needs to be done regarding it? How does this affect the overall server envrionment? How will we make the transitions (transition areas are more work on top of doing this.)? How will this enrich the roleplay for everyone on the server? Is it going to be enjoyable for a majority, or is this an ego-play by a few people who are obsessed with leaving a mark?" There ar emany, many considerations that need to be taken into hand when destroying settlements.

~

Geld, your entire posts reeks of ego, and selfishness. You demand that the DMs bend over hand and foot to do what you ask, when you ask, because you say so, and we are expected to do it no matter what happens IC, and indeed you even demand that we go so far as "DM kill the goodies" to ensure your victory. No. We ensure no one's victory, the players do that themselves. Your post is immature, selfish, incredibly arrogant, and moreover disrespectful to everyone on the server, DM and PC alike, that you think you are actually so above everyone else that you can make these demands OOCly and expect them to be followed through ICly. you are a child throwing a tantrum, you've had this explained before to you, and you will continue having it expalained to you until you finally understand that the world does not revolve around you and if you want to accomplish something in character, if anyone wants to accomplish something in character especially something as big as all the things you want to do, you need 1: work for it, 2: work more for it, 3: keep working for it and 4: understand that we are not, and never will handing anyone anything on a silver platter, and there is alays the chance of failure. Asking for DM intervention, help, assistance, pick a word, is not paramount to victory. It never has been and never will be. You are the harbingers of your own fate and failure an success can largely depend on your actions... but because it is a living world, sometimes there will be factors outside of your control that you cannot plan for. That's when you keep roleplaying and keep working, and you adapt, and you keep moving for your goals. I do not normally get this personal but you are a special case because you have years of this storied history behind you and every attempt by a DM to hammer this into your head has thus far come up short. You are possessed of small moments of clarity and understanding, but then one little thing you dislike happens and you fly off the handle again, dredging up years old issues and assigning villains to them arbitrarily based on who you hate at the time. This time it is 'the good guys' so they are assigned as the villains to all your major issues that you bring up. Last time it was the DMs, even though it was about the same issues. You need to realize this. You are one player, one of many players. You are not more important than anyone else as a player and you never will be. This can be a big piece of humble pie to swallow and sometimes it is best done in small bites but it is something that needs to be done. Please do so; you will find that your time on Amia becomes more enjoyable, and you will find that the time of people you interact with becomes for enjoyable, which creates a happy little cycle and in turn makes the community and the DMs a more enjoyable place to be around, period.

~

tl;dr: Roleplay. Work with DMs (do not demand. Do not whine. Work with.). Be ready to accept failure, in al measures be it big or small. Be equally ready to accept success in all measures, big and small ,and be ready to do it gracefully, and not as something to lord over players as some indication of DM favor. You are a cog in the greater overall story of Amia, and part of a community. Accept that some ideas are inherently bad and will not be done. Accept that even a good idea can be blocked because it simply isn't reasonable possible in the setting at that time. Even if failure may be imminent, work towards it anyways. Something could happen, and it is a reason to roleplay. Do not be so obsessed with the OOC approval or denial. Just work at it. If you say there is no way to work towards it, examine the situation from a new angle and find a way to interact with what you have while a DM discusses. Let them know what you are doing: changing circumstances can dictate a change in acceptance.

~

This post was mostly directed at Geld but I think there is something in it for everyone to take awya. Read in in quarters at a time if you need to, but read the post.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I read it Tormak, but for the love of God please put some paragraphs in because I had trouble reading it.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I was going to blow up or get angered or whatever...but instead I'll just say fo someone who seems to always want to be at the center of universe as I am told...

I haven't accomplished a single solitary thing. Nothing.


But not because I didn't try.

Lack of result doesn't remove the fact that the desire cna be there. Re read your posts, Geld. They are very charged. "DM kill the goodies so I can proceed with my story". It does come off as very selfish. You look very concerned with the You and not the big picture.

And if you are trying then you need to keep trying. Keep working. It will keep you busy ICly and busy thinknig OOCly. Don't get caught up in a failure or denial. Just keep going. Even if it's the same problem at a different angle. Circumstances change.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

About expectations in general. Now that guy on the pic is a funny therapist and explains why so many people are not content with their sex life. Same formula can be applied to expectations in roleplaying:

The circle on the left side represents a guy with huge expectations and little achievement. The guy in the middle has the same expectations and achievement, and thus is happy. The guy on the right has almost no expectations and is totally happy when he has more action.

I play Amia just for fun and have no desire to be part of many plots, but if I'd want to achieve something I'd set myself realistic goals without the need for module changes and little expectations. But then I am really happy when something cool happens.

Props for that hendrack could not have explained it better myself. . .

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

As has been said, one can not play evil and expect to win out in the long run. It's just not the way fantasy worlds work. At the end of the story, good wins. Pure. Simple. Understandable. Evil wins in small spurts and jumps. If, somehow, Evil manages to win at the end of the day, it's probably because Good did something really stupid. If you're playing Evil to "win" and not to RP the life and times of a character in the islands of Amia, then you're playing Evil for the wrong reason.

Those players who play Evil are here to create an enemy for when the DM's aren't here to supervise everything and create enemies for the Good characters to fight. I've had many of small "victories" playing evil characters. The best things I've done when playing an Evil character is to get that small victory and then return to my cave (literally) and hide out until the heat dies down to try and do it again.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

I have never played REALLY evil.

Time to make one and see what the fuzz is about. Because - How should i know how the Evil side feels, when i don't understand the evil side's Arguments?

Cya in game

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
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That's just Hollywood bullshit. Don't buy into that crap. There are plenty of successful PW's in NWN that don't accommodate to the virgin hero-fantasies of modern US christian society.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

It shouldn't be that way, and isn't afaik - the world changes with what you RP. If the RP is good enough, I see no reason why the good guys can't lose. Your argument works fine for a narrative, but not a player world.

Edit: What you're spouting is a narrative device, for authors to make everything good for the audience. This isn't a novel or a movie. This is a living world where the audiences are all participants. Humans always win in the movies, but you don't see that in Starcraft competitions - it's the same argument. Because we are all the players, we aren't trapped in the same way characters are - we are free to make our own choices, good or bad.

I don't expect the bad guys to win, to be perfectly honest, but not because 'that's how the stories go' - I expect them to not win because they're outnumbered. I have seen marvellous RP on both sides of the fence, I'm not involved in DM events because they're in the wrong timezone but certainly as far as I know the DMs strive to give everyone their chance, and the world reacts appropriately. The world may be biased against evil - I know if I'm neutral I'd rather live under a good king than an evil one, but within reason the DMs endeavour to be fair., and respond to actions as the NPCs would, without regard for external pre-conceptions of good always wins, hero gets the girl etc.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Aaaaaand we return to my point that I'm still awaiting insight on. Amia's playerbase is NOT like those playerbases. So, Mago, do the DMs be direct DMs and continue on more or less as we have, acknowledging that there is an expectation of good over evil, or do we become representative, and take our own initiative to change the server completely against its wishes but in accordance with our own?

Crap. He's right... We subconsciously doesn't want Evil to win. At least the majority doesn', and as with all democracy - The majority rules.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Note that I'm not trying to push or suggest one or the other. I've been legitimately asking before tempers got this thread rudely locked what seems to be the proper course.

Your own initiative dictates things as it is. If a DM thinks that a player or a faction have not done what is needed for their plot to succeed, then it doesn't. The DM's bias does come into play in the ultimate direction of the server. To think that a DM can fully step aside and remove ALL bias from themselves and DM in a COMPLETELY fair and neutral way is ridiculous. Judges to the Supreme Court are supposed to be fair and unbiased, but you still hear all types of news about them leaning to conservative or liberal values.

If a DM leans more towards the Good side of things, then it is pretty fair to say that Evil will have a slightly harder time succeeding with that DM. The same can be said for a DM that leans more towards playing Evil. Regardless of how much one tries to distance one's self from who they are, it still shines through.

This is not to say that the DM's don't do a wonderful job or to say that I have any gripe with anything a DM has done. I'm just pointing something out.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

I personally believe the world should respond as it would respond. The NPCs have personalities - the bottom of my last post is my opinion on how the world 'should' (in my opinion) run. I would like to think that we're paying in a world, not a story. A story has winners and losers in the absolute sense. A world can be made up of everyone getting their chance, winning, losing, evolving all the time.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Not everything is what it seems. Remember that the DM's have to make choices they aren't particularly fond of for reasons out of their control at times, and its unlikely you'll ever know they didn't like the choice they were forced to make, just keep that in mind before anyone tosses things around.

My reason for not being on much leading my faction, and thus some of that faction inactivity, is because I am studying, and it's gotten very busy being the 2nd term of the first semestar and thus my workload has risen rather dramatically.

Oh and by the way, the titles wrong by definition of the "change" suggested by the O.P. Change is not limited to destruction, it can be many things. Good does change, you just don't notice it because the change isn't on nearly as dramatic a scale as when evil does it, and thats probably how it should be.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I play evil to help tell a story.

What is LotR without Sauron? What is Star Wars without Darth Vader? Boring as hell is what. A good story, in my mind, has a good villain in it.

I remember when I first heard about the second Star Trek movie. My first reaction was, wtf? Khan? Why are they bringing back a guy who was in one episode? It was later in life that I realized he was the best villain that came out of the original series. And it's no coincidence that was the best Star Trek movie, out of all eleven.

(And please, if you want to debate Star Trek, start a new thread. )

Now in all these stories evil is ultimately defeated. Well of course. They are all scripted.

But the satisfaction of victory does not come from a scripted triumph without sacrifice or adversity. Evil has to prevail in some degree, in order for good's victory itself to have any significance. And vice versa.

This is why, in the course of how the story unfolds, I believe the DM's should stay firmly out of it. In the sense that they should allow the players to tell the story, rather than push it themselves in one direction or the other.

What satisfaction do the good guys get, if their eventual triumph was handed to them by a deus ex machina? If a lightning bolt came down and smote all the Banites into oblivion, would anyone be really satisfied by that outcome? They would not, because nothing had been earned by the players themselves.

And mind you I am simply illustrating a point through hyperbole. The DM's on Amia do not do anything so blatantly overt as that. It does however happen on a more subtle level, all the time.

On the other hand, if the goodly players put their heads together, make a supreme effort and outwit/outfight/outmaneuver the Banites (or whoever) and deal them a severe setback, they're going to be much more satisfied with that outcome. And chances are so will I, and the other bad guys. Because they earned it.

I don't mind losing, if my opponent earned the victory. What pisses off players of evil characters is when the victory is handed to the good guys, because that's how the DM in question wants it to go. This has been a truism I've seen as long as I've been playing NwN.

So to answer your question Yoss, as I understand it, representative is the way to go. Let the players tell the story, while you assist them where needed, and provide flavor. The players are the meat, you are the salt. It creates more immersion and a more satisfying experience for everyone involved that way.

This is not to say DM events are unwelcome or a bad idea. But world-changing things that alter the balance of good versus evil should be player driven in my opinion.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

I have absolutely no problem with evil winning. Again, not even an evil-player.

My two cents: We gotta stop expecting a computer game to represent our own internal views on how we think "the story should end". Otherwise the dynamic becomes stale(like it kinda is now). So Yoss, yeah, we should take the initiative. At least that's what I think. If we want people to look forward to playing Evil, and feel like they have an equal chance of RPing their align in the long run, then we gotta show as a server that we're a relatively level playing field for such RP.

I've said time and time again, I seriously wish DM's would consider letting Cordor fall if the PC's RP well enough to work it out. I'm not saying Cordor itself is the problem, but we gotta look at it for what it is: DM's(or one in particular) have said a few times before that "Cordor will never fall" because it's a beginner's town, it's X, it's Y, and it's Z. And like it or not, it's significantly good-aligned, or at least that's the feel I've gotten over the years. With that in the backgroud, from the moment you step foot on the server, then we're kinda instilling an air that says good's always got it made in the end.

I'm not saying destroy it outright. I hate deus-ex-machina for the most part(largely why I dislike Cordor, but that's another thread). But if it is going to fall, if any Good settlement/group/NPCparty is facing legitimate RP to make it fall -by PC's-, then we should Roll with the Punches. I emphasize, by PC's, because even though some good places have been hurt before, most of what I can remember is by a DM event. So it's still DM's calling the shots on the few times they get hurt. Let the people(the PC's) have a whack at it. To quote Whiplash from Ironman 2 “If you could make God bleed people would cease to believe in Him”. Give the playerbase that chance. Let a few good(in the proficient sense) evil players show the server just the type of permanent marks Evil can leave, and you will see a newfound respect for well-done evil spread through our land like never before.

So let (censored) happen. Let it happen as it would, as it should, and let people deal with it. DM's talk about how they're tired of babying PC's and plots and such, well it's not going to get any better if you keep doing it, now is it? In other words, I don't feel you have to cater to our feelings all the time to entertain us.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

I'm horrible for that. I hit failure or denial and I basically throw up my hands, then give up. Tormaks heard my rants. Course I'm just as quick to jump back on the band wagon the moment I have an awesome idea that could possibly solve the solution. I rave, I rant, I beat my head against the wall and complain to anyone who will hear it, and all the while I'll still stubbornly think about the issue trying to solve it, much to my own chagrin I assure you. Would be so much easier if I could just drop things xD.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I learned shortly after joining the Banites and the whole Underport thing (don't ask if you don't know) that our place was to provide the "bad guy image" and "enjoy the ride." We're not here to win. We're here to provide the story, provoke the story, and provide that element of society that no one likes but they can't do without.

Would I like to have some victories that have long-lasting impressions? Sure. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't anyone? Do I still get a bit sore when hard work and good RP "seems" to have amounted to nothing? Of course I do. But, I enjoyed the ride that came to that outcome. It's no secret that I had my own OOC struggles with playing a bad guy. Of course I wanted to be Mr. Badarse that comes down on the goodies and makes them run in terror.

And in some small measure, I do get that satisfaction in some cases. There are certain players that I don't enjoy RP'g with very much simply because they allow their OOC feelings to flood through into their RP and that's ok because there are those players out there who feel the same about me, I'm sure. Like I said, I'd love to have some big plots actually go our way for once but I understand what is required for that to happen. And I'm willing to accept the outcomes if they are justified. If they're not, oh well. There's not a ton I can do about it and I don't want it to mess with my enjoyment of being immersed within the RP. In the end, we're a community of roleplayers who just want to relax and have a good time. That's all it really is.

So why can't we all just enjoy the ride? <3

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Cordor significantly good aligned is the best joke I've heard in recent history.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

It depends on your ambition.

Do you seek the most epic story and vivid setting? Then it's all representative.

Do you seek to accommodate whiny bitches by taking a safe unchallenging route? Then it's all direct.


The DMs.. have, as long as I've played here, complained that whatever they do, for the players or the setting, is continuously spit on by the community. Either people whine about it, don't appreciate it or otherwise find some angle to bitch in regards to it. I've actually mentioned this several times before. Though... my past references to it, and its solution, has more so been explained along the lines of "Amia DMs need to grow some balls". Which they still do, in my opinion (grown the correct way: Not battering members of the community through crappy attitudes and bullying).

I suppose, that what I was really asking for, and claiming to be a solution to all of this lack of appreciation which the DMs were asking for, was to really go with a more representative way of DMing, as you put it, Yoss.

And the logic behind it is fairly simple.

The direct way of Amia has always spoiled the Amian players. Yet since the priority is to accommodate, the spoiled children of Amia pick up on that, and then bitch and whine and throw tantrums near the candy department in the mall, since they didn't get their favourite treat this time.

A favourite treat, that they... most probably, in reality, didn't want at all... nor would they need.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

I think the above line is perhaps the best I've read so far (bold AND underlined for emphasis.)

I've played all sides of the fence at different times, both here and on other servers. I've never had a preference for the state of things. Perhaps it's because of my personal philosophy where my PnP DMing has been concerned, but I've always found things work out best when you just let the players run with it. If the evil players come up with a plan to wipe out Bendir Dale (why you'd want to, im not exactly sure..) let them work on it.. let them plan on it.. let them gather resources and see how far it goes. If they should manage to work something out in such a way that it could possibly work then so much the better. It should not be easy. Give the Militia something to handle and the players a chance to be heros. But it should be possible.

I think someone drew a comparison to Ravenloft at some point as to how good was supposed to win and evil was supposed to fail.. But, as Yurell brilliantly illustrated, neither side is "supposed to" do anything. The story is not pre-written. Interestingly enough, if you let both sides have at and gallop they balance out. If Evil should somehow take over Kohlingen by some amazing plan, then all you've done is added to the plot. THe heroes, if heroes they be, will rally and try to take it back - adding to drama for all. Letting evil win from time to time gives Good a chance to act, instead of react.. and allows them to set their own goals. Role reversal is fantastic RP. That said, if Good sat down and independently created a final stand against the banites, I'd be fine with that too, provided they put in the leg-work and gathered the IC resources, etc etc etc.

I think this is what 762 and some others are trying to say in their arguments. I think the plot comparisons are flawed for the reason Yurell mentions, but the idea is not. Evil players/factions/plots serve to create dynamic interaction. I do not believe that evil should just be given a win, but I don't believe there is anything that should be outright denied if it is physically possible in terms of realms lore. Don't make it easy.. But don't say no.

Yossarin mentions "Direct" vs. "representative" DMing. I suppose my argument has to be for the latter. But I think the real reason DMs should be here is to provide players with the resources and abilities they need that the game system doesn't provide for. In this, they should be impartial in the realm of good vs. evil or faction vs. faction. Let it happen, and have the world respond as the NPCs should. In the end, it will balance out. After all, Good and Neutral will beat evil any day. But it is evil's job to stir them into action from time to time.

The question should always be "How can we make something like this happen?" not "Can we?"

My two cents.

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Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

Either way, would be nice if it didn't seem so static from time to time. Settlements in general, in terms of destruction from PCs.

It's not like you can have rifts from the underworld opening in the streets so the Keeper can send forth his minions.

Well you could, it would just take a while for the tileset to be made.

It should be noted that evil can't take over kohlingen or destroy cordor, but on the other hand, good has no chance to destroy Tarkuul or underport either.

You wish...

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Characters:
Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues
Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia

I am a bit annoyed that my suggestion was ignored. The solution is simply open ended DM plots, its the only solution really. Personally, I find my roleplay is relatively self-sustaining so I do not need it but it is the most viable solution for the server entire. I think the DM team are beginning to head in the direction already, or were about a week ago or so, was starting to look interesting I hope its just assignments/life that have killed it off temporarily.

PS: Qirlan for king of amia.

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I don't think any of your ideas were bad, Qirlan. But I don't think any of them address the issue of stagnation which is at the heart of the problem.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

They do because they allow evil the chance to have an affect on the world. For example, if the drow killed the visitor from the promenade its a realy victory. The Shrine suffers an image loss, etc. Its the baddies chance to get a real victory, even if its not "oh, we took over the bottom half of the isle".

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

The remark about Cordor is true... but you would need to be doing digging to understand it.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Destroying or occupying areas (especially cities) isn't going to really solve the stagnation issue. You just create a new form of stagnation, where basically nobody cares about cities being attacked because it's become commonplace.

What you have to do is to keep things interesting despite the fact that:

• The same characters keep coming back despite each dying at least once.
• In each new 'episode' it doesn't really seem that you're any closer to seeing that quest of yours completed. Only in the season finale does that happen.
• There is an endless supply of rampaging hordes of monsters who by rights should have killed everyone by now.

Look on the bright side. You don't have to worry much about getting bad ratings from the audience, and barring a massive shortfall in donations, Amia isn't going to get cancelled and replaced by some sleazy reality module.

You said it.
Now let's just lock this topic, Selmak made the point crystal clear.

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Uh, not everyone agrees with Selmak, Svensk.

Make it hard, so it is not common. But doable. Don't make anything off limits if the RP takes the PW in any given direction.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

Dms are willing to let you do great things if you are willing to make great sacrifices. Putting yourself up to be permakilled for one. It's nice to have a bit of risk - and the greater the risk, the greater the reward.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I never said it shouldn't be done, but given the lead time required for module changes, there will be a lot of time where you're going to have to keep things interesting without needing to change the set every week. So you have to:

• Explain or justify certain characters coming back when they apparently died last week.
• Treat monsters as an ever-present threat that needs dealing with ever week, rather than a renewable source of GP.
• Avoid advancing the plot too far in any one week.

There are probably some other things that need to go on that list but the bottom line is that if the RP takes Amia in a certain direction, it needs to be paced so that everything is ready by the time you get to that edge-of-the-seat finale. I'm sure you will agree that if there was a big victory and the module didn't change in time to reflect that, it would be difficult to keep your momentum.

If you simply let cities or major areas be destroyed or change hands without any pacing then these things can happen often enough that players start to get frustrated. The difficulty of such an assault should be impossible by default unless the past ten to twenty episodes have been leading up to it.

The advantage of this approach is that you keep everyone coming back for the next episode. But it only works (that is, entertains the players) if you avoid the city gates until all your pieces are in place.

You don't get the oppertunity to own an entire area of Amia, or destroy/capture towns unless you make a massive sacrafice also, such as putting up your base for destruction and promising to not ask for a new one for several months. Just like you don't get a new base unless you give up your old one in some way.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I don't agree with your last statement, Selvec. I think if the RP warrants the change, and actual growth of a faction so that it actually has control of many areas, and the numbers are enough to accommodate a second, or however many they work towards.

Don't know if such a thing has been done, to my knowledge, but I don't think because a new faction area may be built, any previous one needs to be snuffed out without viable RP.

Thats silly. As the growth of a faction can be attributed to many OOC elements as IC elements. Heck I've seen fads that have caused factions to grow as big as the Banites currently are, then shrink down to about 5 people in a month. Nevermind the old "Bring your mate!" ooc reasoning which contributes to a portion of faction growth. I can name a few people off the top of my head easily who have created characters in factions because someone asked them to tag along, or because they enjoyed the persons company, and thus has no IC reasoning at all.

Too many OOC attributes can help growth of a faction making change warrenting from growth a silly endevour.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I think the Banites had their base destroyed twice? One by several players that included Delarwyn and then by the Black Caravan?

They grow as a faction because they are active players that keep each other busy. I think it is so damn hard to do that, that I honestly applaud those who do. It requires a lot of work, oocly and icly, a lot of planning, a lot of things to do to keep people entertained enough to bring other people to play.

If they expand into another area, players of good faction with DM help can clean up that area. But, all done in character with a story backing up and such.

I didn't read all the pages, but honestly I see nothing wrong with a faction growing, good or evil, it means they are doing something right. And not only growing but keep growing? Wow, that deserve cheers, I wish more would do so.

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Signature by Qualiz

Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.

Second time, they messed with an unknown quantity and got burned. What they could have gained their...I'm not entirely sure of. I don't know why they actually messed with the BC beyond being bullies (Which IC they are and do a good job of.). The First Time was likely because they tried to grab at something or messed with too many groups and couldn't hold off the backlash. Its not even the Banites I'm referring to, as much as all the factions on Amia in general. You need to make a sacrafice when you take an action like claiming entire areas of an isle beyond your own bases area. (Not picking on the Banites, just they have the easiest avaliable examples being the most active faction). I happen to be of the opinion that there are certain factions who do not deserve to be in the places they are in ICly, because they have dwindled and are inactive. Heck I'll freely admit the WK's were one of these factions till this year, and we were lucky to not lose our temple and everything from our inactivity.

The issue I have with growth being rewarded, as I said, is that it's not a reward for IC accomplishments, it's partially a reward for OOC accomplishments, and that shouldn't be rewarded, even if the person is doing a lot to keep the faction together. Growth shouldn't be rewarded because the means of that Growth can so easily be blurred. It would be kinda like rewarding someone with land because they have a lot of gold. The fact is they don't deserve to be rewarded because it's quite possible they gained a percentage of that gold from mindless hunting with mass OOC party chat. Meaning they haven't actually RPed and don't deserve the reward, dispite putting the effort in OOC.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

We have, as of this moment, 32 active players by my last count. I'm not counting the ones we haven't heard from in a while. Since I returned to Amia in January that number has fluctuated somewhere between 25 and 40. Note I said players, not PC's. We don't allow players to have multiple PC's in the faction.

We grow, and stay big, for a few reasons. One, we ICly recruit people all the time. Some of us are actually amazingly good at it (and I don't include myself in that, at all).

Two, we find ways to keep people involved once they are in. It's an ongoing challenge, and very difficult to do consistently, as Delarwyn says. Running a faction this size takes a lot of organization on both an IC and OOC level. Delegation is an absolute necessity. This hands down is the hardest part to do, because as soon as you let up on it, people stop playing and membership slacks off.

Three, we make ourselves known by doing things. If we sat around in our lovely faction area all day (which is very tempting at times) we wouldn't have half the membership we do. People would get bored, and no one would ever hear about us.

Four, we try to conduct ourselves on a high level, both with our RP and our OOC courtesy.

We've had two to three dozen members consistently for quite a while now, for all of those reasons. Most of the credit for that goes to Mago.

So calling it an OOC fad is not even close to being the truth, Selvec. Individual people join for their own reasons, but faction membership in my long experience has always been a barometer of IC success.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)

I can tell you from a personal standpoint that the reason I originally joined the Banites was because of IC interactions. My monk originally started out as a Maskarran. After meeting the Banites IG, he decided that's where he wanted to be. And I went through OOC means to try and organize scheduling to set that up.

Because he was told where to go and what to do if he wanted to join, but it was a matter of RL scheduling to meet the players. Not to mention, that small period of time was a small period of relative inactivity within the Banites. Following that, membership has flourished and RP has been absolutely amazing.

I am so happy on an OOC level with my character's decision to join that it's unreal. I never thought I could experience this level of enjoyment with RP within NWN. It's not for everyone, but it is for me. And it's like Gurth said, we wouldn't have the membership we do if RP was poor and all we did was walk around saying "//hey come on join us plzzzzzzzzz".

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I'm sorry Selvec, but you have absolutely no clue how or why the two attacks which Delarwyn mentioned happened, nor what the actual outcome was.

The Banite temple in the Skull Crags was only destroyed once. And that was thanks to the Black Caravan. During the first massive attack (which gathered 45+ epic goodies), the entrance to the temple and nearby rooms were destroyed, but were soon restored.

The two temple destructions, which some DMs often refer to, are in reality the temple in Wharftown (during the time when Banites were hanging around Tarkuul), and the temple in the skull crags.

I wouldn't count the temple in wharftown to be a faction area. Since it really wasn't. It was a short term conquest. Much like what's being discussed currently in this thread.


Just clarifying some stuff.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

The Church of Bane has a big advantage of having a faith many people enjoy making characters for, just like the Triad. Faiths like Bahamut, Tempus or Kelemvor have a harder time finding members as it is not such a popular god. Additionally active factions have it easier to recruit and people like Mago really helped make it the biggest and most successful faction I have seen on amia, and I am surprised how many good rpers are part of it. It's definitely not just a ooc fad. The only reason big factions tend to fail is when it gets too stagnant and repetitive, which the Banites even when facing so many dead ends have managed to master brilliantly.

And just to clarify that one further...

The temple in Wharftown wasn't destroyed as much as abandoned. The Church left Wharftown voluntarily, and deconsecrated the temple themselves, which resulted in its being razed to the ground by Bane's divine power. After we'd moved the idol to a new location.

But back on topic, I think having artificial rules in place limiting a faction to one area only contributes to the stagnation. Letting whoever has the upper hand work for more, and be rewarded for it, is only going to encourage the underdogs to follow suit, resulting in the ebb and flow that makes for epic storytelling.

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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)