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-Cloak-and-Dagger-
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 Posted: Sat, Jul 31 2010, 13:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Location: England
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No, you're wrong, it is. Maybe you're thinking of UMD.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Jul 31 2010, 19:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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No, UMD isn't an SD skill. Oddly enough.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 4:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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TormakSaber wrote: No, UMD isn't an SD skill. Oddly enough. From a class perspective they don't need it. SD is all about masterful hiding. Not faking use of arcane stuff, thats a rogues domain. Also it stops people from powerbuilding with even more ease then current incarnations. Anything that pisses off powerbuilders is good in my books.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 4:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Fun fact, in tabletop, UMD is a skill available to everyone, albiet not all of them have it class skill.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 4:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Yea, but in Tabletop you can take literally no combat based feats or skills and be incredibly useful to a party.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 4:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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To be fair, UMD works different in PnP to NWN. And the DCs are a lot higher for scrolls (plus yo have to emulate an ability score to cast them as well).
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 5:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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A DC increase I'd love to see implemented....
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Vhalus_VoA
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 5:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2010
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change server setting to hardcore 25+spell level for scrolls
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 5:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Yes, I'm aware of the server setting.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 6:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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TormakSaber wrote: A DC increase I'd love to see implemented.... I'd have no objections either. All it would cut out are FW scrolls and Raise Dead scrolls ... but I can see that being a problem.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 6:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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I wonder - Would it Fudge up balance if UMD was implemented as a Cross-Class skill to all classes?
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 7:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Very_Svensk wrote: I wonder - Would it Fudge up balance if UMD was implemented as a Cross-Class skill to all classes? You mean besides 95% of the server wanting a rebuild?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Silvarus
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 7:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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Kill UMD. It is UNCLEAN!
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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 8:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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TormakSaber wrote: Very_Svensk wrote: I wonder - Would it Fudge up balance if UMD was implemented as a Cross-Class skill to all classes? You mean besides 95% of the server wanting a rebuild? I thought that's why you introduced the once a year free rebuilds for?
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 8:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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It is, but changing UMD for every class in the module is a bit different than nerfing a single class ability.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Kudark
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 22:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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TormakSaber wrote: Fun fact, in tabletop, UMD is a skill available to everyone, albiet not all of them have it class skill. In every character sheet I've ever seen, UMD is a skill that cannot be used untrained, meaning it has to be a class skill in order to buy ranks in and use. Bard and Rogue are the two classes able to buy ranks in UMD (I only included the PHB classes, there are others). The example in the PHB states: "Krusk (Barbarian), with no ranks in [UMD], can't make a Use Magic Device check even at a penalty because UMD can't be used untrained." (page 64 3.5 PHB, under Untrained Skill Checks) I'm not trying to be argumentative, and perhaps I'm taking your statement incorrectly, but UMD isn't available to everyone my friend. _________________ 
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 22:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Kudark wrote: TormakSaber wrote: Fun fact, in tabletop, UMD is a skill available to everyone, albiet not all of them have it class skill. In every character sheet I've ever seen, UMD is a skill that cannot be used untrained, meaning it has to be a class skill in order to buy ranks in and use. Bard and Rogue are the two classes able to buy ranks in UMD (I only included the PHB classes, there are others). The example in the PHB states: "Krusk (Barbarian), with no ranks in [UMD], can't make a Use Magic Device check even at a penalty because UMD can't be used untrained." (page 64 3.5 PHB, under Untrained Skill Checks) I'm not trying to be argumentative, and perhaps I'm taking your statement incorrectly, but UMD isn't available to everyone my friend. That's not how it works. "Cannot be used untrained" means that if you have 0 ranks, you cannot use the skill at all. However, you can still put points in it as a cross-class skill, and as soon as you have one rank in it you can use it freely. The only difference between class and cross-class is that the latter takes twice as much skill points to get up (and can only be half as high afaik). A skill that cannot be used untrained needs at least one point (regardless of whether it's C or CC) to use.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Kudark
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 23:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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I'll quote the 3.5 PHB, last paragraph of Untrained Skill Checks section:
"...Krusk the barbarian's 4 skill ranks in Climb make his Climb check result 4 points higher than they otherwise would be, but even Gimble the bard, with no Climb ranks, can make a Climb check because Climb can be used untrained. Gimble...can give it a try.
However, Gimble's ranks in UMD let him do something he otherwise couldn't do at all-namely, use a magic item as if he had a particular spell on his class spell list that he actually doesn't have.
Krusk, with no ranks in the skill [UMD], can't make a Use Magic Device check even at a penalty because UMD can't be used untrained."
There are class skills that can be used untrained, meaning anyone can buy ranks in them at double cost for cross-class.
Skills that cannot be used untrained, can't be bought unless they are class skills.
That's how it works in PnP.
your terminology is slightly misplaced is all.
The PHB and most quality character sheets have notations designating which skills cannot be used untrained, classes that get these particular skills are the only classes allowed to buy ranks in them, unless of course, your DM allows it.
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Last edited by Kudark on Mon, Aug 02 2010, 23:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 23:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: Skills that cannot be used untrained, can't be bought unless they are class skills. No. Incorrect. The example text simply states that Krusk has no ranks, not that he is incapable of purchasing ranks.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 23:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Kudark wrote: The PHB and most quality character sheets have notations designating which skills cannot be used untrained, classes that get these particular skills are the only classes allowed to buy ranks in them, unless of course, your DM allows it. Cannot be used untrained =/= cannot be purchased CC. Otherwise, there'd be a dash in the table, rather than CC. Find me a section that explicitly states otherwise, and I'll concede the point. Your quote is only an example of someone with no ranks not being able to use the ability.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Kudark
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 23:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Quote: No. Incorrect. The example text simply states that Krusk has no ranks, not that he is incapable of purchasing ranks. Well, whatever, I don't agree with that, and the groups I play in have always used the skills in that way. A barbarian can't use a wand, he can activate an enchanted ring or amulet, but not a wand or scroll like a rogue can. UMD is for wands, staffs, and scrolls mainly. If it can't be purchased cc, when can it? _________________
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 23:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Kudark wrote: Well, whatever, I don't agree with that, and the groups I play in have always used the skills in that way. Then your groups have always been houseruling it. Kudark wrote: If it can't be purchased cc, when can it? Ummm, any skill can be purchased CC if it is listed as CC. Just not in NWN for some arcane reason.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Kudark
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Posted: Mon, Aug 02 2010, 23:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Yurell wrote: Cannot be used untrained =/= cannot be purchased CC. This is what my reference was to. cannot be used untrained = cannot be purchased cc (meaning it has to be a class skill) I'm trying to find a ruling by Wizard's of the Coast on this, as so far, it seems we are interpreting the PHB differently. _________________
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 0:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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UMD kinda fits the way it is as long as mages can continue to level to 30 heh.
It's one of a small selection of skills and feats that balance out the magical powerhouse that is Amia. Take it away, and you kinda take away the ability to combat magic users some what effectively from over 50% of the playerbase I bet.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 0:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Yurell wrote: Kudark wrote: Well, whatever, I don't agree with that, and the groups I play in have always used the skills in that way. Then your groups have always been houseruling it. Kudark wrote: If it can't be purchased cc, when can it? Ummm, any skill can be purchased CC if it is listed as CC. Just not in NWN for some arcane reason. 3.0 was errata'd into 3.5, but NWN1 is 3.0. If you see something that differs between NWN1 and PNP now, it's probably because it changed in 3.5.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 2:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Kudark wrote: I'm trying to find a ruling by Wizard's of the Coast on this, as so far, it seems we are interpreting the PHB differently. I don't see how. All it says is Kursk has no ranks in UMD => Kursk can't UMD => UMD cannot be used untrained. TormakSaber wrote: 3.0 was errata'd into 3.5, but NWN1 is 3.0. If you see something that differs between NWN1 and PNP now, it's probably because it changed in 3.5. Ah cheers, I didn't realise that ... never played 3.0 myself.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Kudark
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 2:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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TormakSaber wrote: 3.0 was errata'd into 3.5, but NWN1 is 3.0. If you see something that differs between NWN1 and PNP now, it's probably because it changed in 3.5. Right, this I know. This was originally about your comment on PnP, and UMD being available to all classes (which I think is a mis-interpretation). You here, are the first I've encountered that view "cannot be used untrained" in this way, there's no houseruling it, it's just the way it's always been for all of us. _________________
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davis114
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 2:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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From a realistic standpoint, UMD isn't an innate ability, it's only a learned one. It stands to reason that any creature with the right amount of know-how could theoretically use a magical device. CC-ing defines that fact of realism. Noteably, that even though a particular class is much less inclined to be good at a particular skillset, doesn't mean they can't actually pull it off, given the right training.
_________________  MoshingChris wrote: Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 2:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Kudark wrote: TormakSaber wrote: 3.0 was errata'd into 3.5, but NWN1 is 3.0. If you see something that differs between NWN1 and PNP now, it's probably because it changed in 3.5. Right, this I know. This was originally about your comment on PnP, and UMD being available to all classes (which I think is a mis-interpretation). You here, are the first I've encountered that view "cannot be used untrained" in this way, there's no houseruling it, it's just the way it's always been for all of us. Can't be used untrained isn't the same as class and cross class. A rogue that doesn't take ranks in open lock cant do it, because it's a Trained Skill. It doesn't matter that it's a Class Skill for them, if they don't have ranks, they can't do it untrained.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Kudark
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 15:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Alright, I concede.
According to Wizard's of the Coast, you are correct in this matter.
I've never been trained to pick locks, but I'm fairly good at it, given a bit of time and all. I wouldn't consider myself to have ranks in it for sure since I'm untrained. *shrugs*
Looks like I'm the bearer of the news then tonight.
(Now I want a UMD using barbarian!) *grabs his stat 6's and pencil*
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Blink
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 16:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Players handbook 3.5 Table 4-2 says it all imo.
I believe it's the same for UMD as 3.0..
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Former account: Wibi
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Kudark
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 19:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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It does say it all.
It's a matter of perspective and interpretation.
Anyway, case closed, I and everyone I know that plays PnP, has been wrong.
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Glyph
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Posted: Tue, Aug 03 2010, 20:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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how did this go from me thinking SD's couldn't get PP in nwn to cross classing UMD in pnp in a seperate thread?
I've always assumed if your taking stat points in pnp at level that requires training, you, you know, go get training...no DM's ever said no to that but sometimes its a little tricky to find the right person in a town, also to do it quickly enough before the place is raided by something =) I need a new group badly =(
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