AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Pick pocket, -50, and what that means...

Lizzie wrote:

But not once with any of those rogues did I pick the pocket of the character whose player was sitting with me at the table. Not once, not ever. I could have, but I chose not to. Because those players were my collaborators: they had the same goal as me; namely, they wanted to get together and have a good time RPing. To force your own character's idea of a fun time upon your collaborators, at their direct expense, is against the spirit of the game. It's not what the Slight of Hand skill is included in the PnP game for, and if I were the DM of a player who constantly pickpocketed the other players at the table, that player would in short order find himself unwelcome at the table.

What you're arguing for is identical to the situation I describe: you're arguing in favor of pickpocketing the other players at the virtual table. The fact that their sides of the table may be in different cities or countries is inconsequential. The other PCs are your collaborators, your colleagues, and their efforts in cooperating with you to build a flourishing RP environment deserve more respect than you're giving them.

Amia already recognizes this principle in another area: PvP combat. All your arguments in favor of PP can be just as rationally applied to PvP combat, but the DMs (rightly) take a very dim view of people who force their character's idea of a good time onto the rest of the population, if that good time involves killing other PCs. They're so strict about this that the rules basically require you to get my permission before killing me (in the form of offering me an IC "out" which I must refuse before PvP can commence). PvP pickpocketing is no different. (Or at least, it shouldn't be.)

Use PP the way it was intended to be used (which is the same in NWN as in PnP): against NPCs.

Not attempting to single the quoted out, I've just seen this sort of PC vs. NPC argument a lot. Has anyone made the point or considered that that sort of distinction takes on a sort of arbitrary quality in a game where there are 100+PCs on at any given time?

In a PnP setting (which is where these arguments have their root) you typically have a handful of PCs bound together as an adventuring group and a limitless amount of NPCs with which to interact with, controlled by a DM. This means that a whole mess of things can be considered "appropriate for NPCs, but you shouldn't do it to your fellow player." Most of the time, you shouldn't be fighting your fellow player either.

In NWN, on the other hand, the overwhelming majority of your interactions are going to be with PCs. Not NPCs.. so anything labeled only appropriate for NPCs by that logic is rarely ever going to be used, and only if a DM happens to be able to around and wishes to do so. This renders things carrying that label very very marginalized and fairly silly and pointless.

The fundamental paradigm between PnP and NWN is different. In PnP 90% of the time, your fellow players are part of your group. In NWN, the majority of your interactions and enemies are going to be the other PCs.

I'm not arguing for or against pickpocketing, mind you. I just think that argument fails to recognize a fundamental difference in dynamic.

Pickpocket is just bad to use against players. Period. It involves nonconsentual inventory manipulation between players and that has been determined to, for years, have no place on Amia, otherwise when you died, your body could indeed be looted.

brooksthegreat wrote:

Not attempting to single the quoted out ... <snip> ... I'm not arguing for or against pickpocketing, mind you. I just think that argument fails to recognize a fundamental difference in dynamic.

Don't worry, I'm confident enough in my arguments to not mind being singled out.

What you're describing is basically the difference between a PvP server and an RP server. In a RP server (such as Amia), the dynamic should be assumed to be the same as in a PnP game, because the goal is the same: for a bunch of people to get together and have fun RPing and collaborating towards creation of an awesome game world. What you're describing, I think, is no less valid, but more properly applies to a PvP server, where the goal is different: for a bunch of people to get together with the specific intention of trying to get the better of each other (in whatever form, be it PvP combat, PP, or something else). My point is that I could be playing on a PvP server if I was interested in that sort of interaction. I'm not.

Whoa... ninja'd by Tormak. I feel like the Blue Fairy just waved her magic wand and made me into a real Amian.

Lizzie wrote:

brooksthegreat wrote:

Not attempting to single the quoted out ... <snip> ... I'm not arguing for or against pickpocketing, mind you. I just think that argument fails to recognize a fundamental difference in dynamic.

Don't worry, I'm confident enough in my arguments to not mind being singled out.

What you're describing is basically the difference between a PvP server and an RP server. In a RP server (such as Amia), the dynamic should be assumed to be the same as in a PnP game, because the goal is the same: for a bunch of people to get together and have fun RPing and collaborating towards creation of an awesome game world. What you're describing, I think, is no less valid, but more properly applies to a PvP server, where the goal is different: for a bunch of people to get together with the specific intention of trying to get the better of each other (in whatever form, be it PvP combat, PP, or something else). My point is that I could be playing on a PvP server if I was interested in that sort of interaction. I'm not.

This seems to hinge on the idea that RP = all working together. That's skipping over the idea of conflict RP being valid. Indeed, some of the more interesting RP is in the area of conflict RP, which is why there are so many factions and things running about the server. This is where my point sort of comes down to. The players, OOCly are encouraged to work together, but our characters certainly aren't. It's no less valid RP to pick someone's pocket than it is to challenge them to a duel or to kidnap their brother's son and hold it for ransom. Yes, you have fewer options on how to RP that, but at the same time it could be just as interesting to attempt to figure out who the pickpocket is and so forth.

My argument was more that the NPC vs. PC thing doesn't cut as well in NWN as PnP. If I played a dice-game and wanted to convert the masses to my holy cause, I would be talking to my DM, a few dozen NPCs would be there to listen..I could do my song and dance, make a few rolls as necessary (usually with bonuses based on the RP..was how we did it, anyway) and then the story would progress from there.

In NWN, we don't have reactive expendable "Extras" for our stories. We have each other. So if I'm going to convert the masses, I'm going to stand in cordor square, do my song and dance and likely have a dozen other adventurers blink and continue with what they were doing. heh. Short of DM intervention, if our character was the type to do XYZ, then they can only do so to PCs.

Most of the time when you get something lifted off of you, you don't notice until the perp is way long gone.
Now what, who are you going to interact with? The cops? The guy next to you? Certainly not the perp, who is way long gone, remember?
So there's no interaction with the perp (or RP in this case), unless of course the perp failed his roll and you caught him.
Good luck with that, pickpockets are very skilled at lifting unnoticed, hell they can take your wallet from your pocket while you are in your pants for Chri...stsmas sake.
Face it, sometimes bad things happen to good people, to innocents, to bystanders...deal with it.

Sure, Rogues have a bad name, what's your point?
We all know this, sometimes they are necessary, especially if you want to get in somewhere you shouldn't be, like the evil overlords' scary dungeon.
Why are you there? To kill him dead is why, murderer...oh, sorry priest and pally, I meant deliverer of justice.

If you take something from one class, take from them all to be fair then.
Rogues have their skills for a reason, allow them to use what is given them.
It doesn't happen that often anyway, and getting caught 90% of the time should instigate plenty of RP.
From a neutral point of view, like what a DM is supposed to do, the system is designed for failure and really should be re-done, it's not fair that I can't use the skills I've invested in. If it's going to be like that, then toss the skill sheet because it's useless.
The same applies to hiding, you can't see me if my Spot vs. Hide wins, even if you have True Seeing, simply read the spell in the PHB, the last paragraph to be exact. Yet some still think it let's you see all as is, but guess again, it doesn't. But I'm off on a tangent again, huh?

Edit: Did it really take me that long to post? So much reading
I have to agree with Brooks, in NWN if you're not in my 'party', you're an NPC and skill checks apply, all those people sitting around the table that you shouldn't pickpocket are 'in your party' or your adventuring group, either way, everyone else is fair game.
Yes, PP is an arse move, but rogues are usually arses, but they also have the common sense not to rob from their own companions, but that guy over there...
And if it does happen to get out of hand, well, here's a quarter, call a DM that cares.

Alright, let's break this down.

1. While players should be encouraged to have their characters' interests and activities conflict with those of others to spark movement in the server, ultimately, everyone is here to have fun - and the best way for everyone to have fun is for everyone to model their RP around the premise of enhancing the experience of their peers.

2. If you use pickpocket on someone, succeed, and proceed never to get caught, how are you in any way, shape, or form improving the experience of anyone else - or even yourself? You are walking away with a little more gold, they are walking away with a little less, and neither of you get to roleplay anything. The victim might introduce some amount of anger or remorse into their character's subsequent attitude, but why bother? A PC thief that disappears completely at the scene of the crime probably isn't going to allow for follow-up opportunities.

3. ...actually, I don't have a third point. One and two pretty much cover it. Rather than try to justify your actions with your class (or worse, your alignment), why don't you ask what you're adding to the collective experience before doing things? I promise you, in the end, if you approach everything with the goal of improving everyone else's experience, you'll greatly improve your own. What's a bunch of numbers next to a bunch of players sharing a story?

Ask not what the game can do for you, but what you can do for the game.

Glyph wrote:

if I took a skill to get caught 100% of the time what kind of rouge would that be?

I'll stop the quote there as you only seem to get ornery there after.

Honest answer to the question posed? You'd suck. Stop playing such an embarrassing thief.

But when does having to RP your thievery = getting caught? Snap out of it Mono Rail Willis. Find the switch, you seem to be stuck on one track. NWN unlike its DnD counterpart affords the unique opportunity to just point and click to pickpocket, whether you be a Rogue, Bard, or any class with a cross-class rank in the skill. All that has been asked of us that play thieves here on Amia (via the widget) is that we RP it out. If you read the posts I've made, all I have offered has been a suggestion and an example that we that we that play thieves can use to put people's minds to ease on the OOC side of the game. I am trying to prove that we can essentially add the RP flavor that is asked of us presently without needing a pesky widget that limits the skill. I have been agreeing that the widgit is a silly idea, but as you cannot seem to grasp the argument and have shown you easily will lose your cool if someone's opinion varies from the chaos of your own opinions, I'll leave you to fight your own fight.

Gist: Role Play=\= Roll Play. You can act it out. It won't hurt you. Or is this a case of fear of being meta'd?

Kudark wrote:

Most of the time when you get something lifted off of you, you don't notice until the perp is way long gone.
Now what, who are you going to interact with? The cops? The guy next to you? Certainly not the perp, who is way long gone, remember?
So there's no interaction with the perp (or RP in this case), unless of course the perp failed his roll and you caught him.
Good luck with that, pickpockets are very skilled at lifting unnoticed, hell they can take your wallet from your pocket while you are in your pants for Chri...stsmas sake.
Face it, sometimes bad things happen to good people, to innocents, to bystanders...deal with it.

Sure, Rogues have a bad name, what's your point?
We all know this, sometimes they are necessary, especially if you want to get in somewhere you shouldn't be, like the evil overlords' scary dungeon.
Why are you there? To kill him dead is why, murderer...oh, sorry priest and pally, I meant deliverer of justice.

If you take something from one class, take from them all to be fair then.
Rogues have their skills for a reason, allow them to use what is given them.
It doesn't happen that often anyway, and getting caught 90% of the time should instigate plenty of RP.
From a neutral point of view, like what a DM is supposed to do, the system is designed for failure and really should be re-done, it's not fair that I can't use the skills I've invested in. If it's going to be like that, then toss the skill sheet because it's useless.
The same applies to hiding, you can't see me if my Spot vs. Hide wins, even if you have True Seeing, simply read the spell in the PHB, the last paragraph to be exact. Yet some still think it let's you see all as is, but guess again, it doesn't. But I'm off on a tangent again, huh?

Edit: Did it really take me that long to post? So much reading
I have to agree with Brooks, in NWN if you're not in my 'party', you're an NPC and skill checks apply, all those people sitting around the table that you shouldn't pickpocket are 'in your party' or your adventuring group, either way, everyone else is fair game.
Yes, PP is an arse move, but rogues are usually arses, but they also have the common sense not to rob from their own companions, but that guy over there...
And if it does happen to get out of hand, well, here's a quarter, call a DM that cares.

A DM that cares has been called, and the DM notes that your lack of caring for your fellow playerbase and the attitiude you display towards them is a bit appaling and one that'd get you booted from my personal campaign table quite quickly.

I have to agree with tormak that the item thing is not so great for morale and generally annoys people, like I said I will return stuff OOCly if you want it back no problem, personally i'd prefer just gold less agro more balance.

Murex wrote:

The whole reason why this skill was nerfed was because it was not 'fun' for characters to get their items stolen.

I think the random item given from a successful pickpocket attempt is a good idea (one not from the target's invintory). The -50 should go away if only gold is really taken from a victum of pickpocket.

No, the reason why the skill was nerfed was because you could steal the armor/cloak/weapon/rings and boots of a victim while they'd wear it and they could do NOTHING about it.

The -50 is there to prevent the use of the normal pickpocket, which is already against the rules, but hey, someone just nmight decide not to follow them. Cue to much grief.

The widget should ignore the -50 penalty, it doesn't though, and so it should be the only thing really changed.

And the only thing I am not fully sure is the last part about the widget.

HellScourge wrote:

The widget should ignore the -50 penalty, it doesn't though, and so it should be the only thing really changed.

And the only thing I am not fully sure is the last part about the widget.

It does ignore the -50

What if you skilldump, and then Gear up on Pickpocket?

Can you actually use the blizzard broken PP skill and steal somebodys armor?

If you feel like being banned immediately after.

Pickpocket is used to put things in peoples pockets as much as take things out.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Gear up on Pickpocket?

I have heard that the pickpocket skills on gear do not add up at all.

Another view of PP:

So, there we were the entire party wiped out in the Yuan-ti and suddenly our "savior" comes in. He takes out all the remaining Yuan-ti then turns his attention to us. And laughs....loudly. Then he rummages through our belongings with some of the funniest RP I've had the pleasure of participating in. Although my character was dead I was able to emote arms flopping about, random gems and gold falling from pockets etc. As was the rest of our party. He picked our pockets and basically robbed the dead. However, his RP was so exceptional that we all ended up giving him hundreds of gold and gems and whatever else struck our fancy. He left us...dead and robbed. We enjoyed it.

I'm not saying every player has that good of a sence of humor. However, if you PP with great RP, you'll get gold from my characters everytime.

TormakSaber wrote:

Kudark wrote:

And if it does happen to get out of hand, well, here's a quarter, call a DM that cares.

A DM that cares has been called, and the DM notes that your lack of caring for your fellow playerbase and the attitiude you display towards them is a bit appaling and one that'd get you booted from my personal campaign table quite quickly.

That was most certainly not meant to point the finger at any one person or DM.
I apologize publicly if you think it was meant in such a way.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Gear up on Pickpocket?

I have heard that the pickpocket skills on gear do not add up at all.

They certainly didn't last time I checked it.

With my system the -50 penalty would go altogether and 'pickpocketing' corpses would not be not possible.

Anyway, I don't mind tweaking the parameters so it's better suited for Amia. Stealing items is a no-no, though. Money... well, I doubt that's much of an issue, really. It's not like we haven't got way too many people with way too much gold in their pockets.

I would be happy to steal like 1% of a Pc's total money. @ Maximum of 3 times @ Reset.

How does that sound?

1% of 100 mill is a mill, ok. (you'd need a logarithmic formula to avoid rich people hunting.)

100 mil is a bug in my opinion.

i've never had 100 mill i'm just saying after reading the auctions page there must be someone who does.

if there is a way to store alot alot of gold like the bank then 1% sounds good, kind of, you'd have to find someone with 1.5 mill for 15k gold. maybe should be varied through the skill aswell or instead, how much you can take in one go.

Last edited by Jyro X on Sat, Jul 31 2010, 12:23 PM, edited 3 times in total.

I'd say 1d20*{Pick Pocket Skill Level}*Rogue (pickpocket class) levels to a maximum of 1% of the target PC's total gold.

Maximum of 1-3 times per reset per PC.

With a level 30 rogue with 50 ranks in pickpocket, that equals out to:

1d20*{50}*30 = 1500-30000 gold.

Edit: Formula:

1d20*{Pick Pocket Rank}*Assassin/Bard/Rogue/Shadowdancer levels.

I feel this type of a formula still makes the character build (not skill-dumping) very important and also not really broken. I would think a maximum of 30,000 gold would be suitable for a master rogue with tons of points in pick pocket, especially if they can do it to multiple PCs per reset, to a maximum of 1% of the PC's inventory.

That would mean in order to hit the maximum of 30k in my scenario, the target PC would have to have 3 million gold. I think it would bring new flavor and life to the rogue class and the pick pocket skill and end a ton of bitching. The victims will still bitch, but come on. 1% of your gold? Get over it and kill a kobold or something. Don't be such a victim of thievery.

To sate the masses, you could let the target PC make a spot roll or something vs the 1d20+PPSkill.

Last edited by Glyph on Sat, Jul 31 2010, 12:22 PM, edited 2 times in total.

assassin gets pickpocket aswell...

that forumula maxes somewhere around 50k. seams alright, provided you include assassin levels in that.

ed: you put rouge...-_- ok I get it now.

Glyph wrote:

assassin gets pickpocket aswell...

Note how I said "(pickpocket class)."

SD however does not get pickpocket though obviously you might already have some at that point.

Glyph wrote:

SD however does not get pickpocket though obviously you might already have some at that point.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowdancer
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Pick_pocket

Last edited by Jyro X on Sat, Jul 31 2010, 15:33 PM, edited 2 times in total.

So, new official proposal for change to Pick-Pocket:

Pick Pocket Skill: 1(-3?) use(s)/PC per reset
Save: Spot(other skill/save?) negates
DC: 1d20 + Pick Pocket Skill Rank

Randomly attempt to loot a certain amount of gold from the target (1d20 * Pick Pocket Skill Rank * Assassin/Bard/Rogue/Shadowdancer Levels) to a maximum of 1% of their total gold.

((Use of this skill to OOCly abuse any player will be strictly punished and should only be used to advance RP, not as a manner of OOC gold-farming.))

i'm sorry but the wiki's wrong, pickpocket is not an SD class skill. in nwn

if you don't believe me try using a character creator and make an SD either that or i'm thinking of a different skill...time I hit the sack lol.

Is there any provision for a small gain in xp for the new formula?

I like the idea of a random item or gold amount being taken rather than the players inventory messed with.

Lots of RP reasoning has been discussed here, and I suppose I would like to put my foot forward on the matter, for the sake of a rogue I have who pick pockets.

Drow rogue- I RP him as funny, intelligent, congenial, outgoing... and I do pickpocket bodies. Even those of my hunting companions and 'friends'. Sometimes he will 'eyeball' an item on a person, just in case the opportunity presents itself to steal it. The reason for this is that he's really just a horrible and greedy person and doesn't care about anyone but himself. OOC, people know what's about to go down and they hunt with me anyway because sometimes, he fumbles and your crap falls out of his bag in front of you. The ups and downs of having a rogue for a companion, yes? With proper RP, this is a useful and fun tool to work with.

It isn't without RP, and while I recognize there is a potential for abuse, simply changing it from stealing player items to a randomly generated item is a great way to curb this and still allow jerks like my drow to run amuck. Anyway, simply deleting something because of it's potential for abuse is like making beer illegal because someone might drink and drive. Ruins it for those of us who are responsible.

On a side note, not everyone is horrible about this. I have not once encountered a pick pocket and had a bad experience- and I've encountered a LOT of them. I've been pick pocketed while dead (In the Rainbow Castle, as I recall) and once I was up and moving, ooc, the player gave me back my 30ish gold or whatever he took. He simply wanted to play the character and there shouldn't be a grudge for any kind of RP someone wants if they aren't being a griefer about it.

I don't know much about this sort of thing, but Disco's plan looks pretty good... expect not being able to rob dead people, that is.

So, just another prospective to add to the Pick Pocket Thread stew.

I don't see why you would need PP to loot dead people anyway. Everybody should be able to, or nobody.

Dev Disco wrote:

I don't see why you would need PP to loot dead people anyway. Everybody should be able to, or nobody.

Give everyone the widget, and if they don't have any ranks they can only rob dead people?

Yurell wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

I don't see why you would need PP to loot dead people anyway. Everybody should be able to, or nobody.

Give everyone the widget, and if they don't have any ranks they can only rob dead people?

anyone that wanted the widget could already use 2 points (crossclass) to get it.

I should be able to loot your dead corpse with 0 ranks in pickpocket.

Yes, but rogues get xp for performing the act, yes? Or I could be thinking of something completely different.

TormakSaber wrote:

I should be able to loot your dead corpse with 0 ranks in pickpocket.

But people with the skill should be the only ones that can stealthingly loot the dead.

wouldn't that mean you could attempt it on a live person with 0, and probably fail but still, I disagree. paladin's don't thief the dead unless they are undead, and should see your alignment go --v that way if you do start robbing PC's.

My suggestion is that we stick with "nobody can".

Pick pocket, -50, and what that means...

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