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Isaiah

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 4:45 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Ohio, USA

Is it possible?

This is from the 3.5 Player's Handbook

Quote:

Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a
source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics
devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any
religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric
devoted to good and law, for example, may be on friendly terms with
the clerics of lawful and good deities and may extol the virtues of a
good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church
hierarchy.

So I guess it is possible, but I've never seen it on Amia.

What do you think?

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BrainSplitter

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 4:54 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia

Players Handbook is Core / Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms.

In Forgotten Realms, any Divine spellcaster must have a deity, else they cannot call upon any Divine abiliites.

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Isaiah

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 5:16 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Ohio, USA

I always get mixed up with core rules and Forgotten Realms' rules. I keep forgetting that they're not the same thing.

This is from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting

Quote:

All clerics in Faerûn serve a patron deity (In fact, most people in Faerûn choose a deity as their patron.) It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one. You
may not have more than one patron deity at a time, although it is possible
to change your patron deity if you have a change of heart. You
cannot multiclass into another class that requires a patron deity unless
your previous patron deity is an acceptable choice for the new class.
For example, you cannot multiclass as a druid unless your patron deity
is a nature deity (since all druids have nature deities as patron deities).
You may also bypass this restriction by abandoning your old deity outright
(see Changing Deities in Chapter 5: Deities). See the Religion section
of this chapter for more information on patron deities.

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GreatPigeon

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 5:38 AM

Player

Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK

Robert mentioned something along the lines of a Ur-Priest before...

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TormakSaber

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 5:42 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Ur-Priests are stated to simply believe thy are stealing divine power when in fact some unnamed god is granted them. I think that's dumb and destroys a lot of potential for villains but hey ho...

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Kraniumbrud

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 8:06 AM

Player

Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark

in either case a ur priest would need a approved char no?

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TormakSaber

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 8:28 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

It depends on if Amia follows Ed's stance, or the stance set forth by Complete Divine.

If Ed's stance, you're simply a delusional cleric and you need no approval.

If Complete Divine, then you need permission to play a PC that is siphoning godly power, yes.

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Estatica

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 11:07 AM

Player

Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Location: Australia, GMT +8

On a related note, what is the server's stance on Clerics roleplaying as the Favored Soul class?

Gers

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 11:10 AM

Player

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA

Favored souls are allowed, I believe. I do know of one PC who was one, and I don't recall seeing a request required for it, though I could be wrong.

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Isaiah

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 11:15 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Ohio, USA

Because I'm lazy and don't want to look it up.....what is a favored soul?

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Estatica

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 11:28 AM

Player

Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Location: Australia, GMT +8

Isaiah wrote:

Because I'm lazy and don't want to look it up.....what is a favored soul?

In layman's terms? A cleric that uses charisma instead of wisdom.

Dark Immolation

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 11:35 AM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

The Silent Whisper wrote:

Isaiah wrote:

Because I'm lazy and don't want to look it up.....what is a favored soul?

In layman's terms? A cleric that uses charisma instead of wisdom.

A better explanation is a divine caster who casts spells like a sorcerer. Both lorewise and mechanically for the most part.

Favored souls are to clerics what sorcerers are to wizards. Their touch with the divine comes innately. They do not pray for their spells, they were simply blessed from the favor of their god to have that close a link to them. Thus, "favored" souls.

HellScourge

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 14:06 PM

Player

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1

Plus they still use Wisdom for DC calculation, but Charisma for the spell level. Or vice versa. I am not that sure.

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Isaiah

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 14:07 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Ohio, USA

So an example would be Cadderly Bonaduce, chosen of Denier?

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Yannickbl

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 14:21 PM

Player

Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Location: Ghent, Belgium

HellScourge wrote:

Plus they still use Wisdom for DC calculation, but Charisma for the spell level. Or vice versa. I am not that sure.

Correct.

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Logicality

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 14:59 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Location: The Otherworld

Would it be possible for a favoured soul to be chosen against her will, and thus cursed to serve the being that chose her, much as she might try not to do so?

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Silvarus

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 15:01 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

Logicality wrote:

Would it be possible for a favoured soul to be chosen against her will, and thus cursed to serve the being that chose her, much as she might try not to do so?

Unlikely. I would say it would be comparable to having sorcerous potential. Not all with magical blood put effort into using it and becoming sorcerers.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 16:27 PM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Yannickbl wrote:

HellScourge wrote:

Plus they still use Wisdom for DC calculation, but Charisma for the spell level. Or vice versa. I am not that sure.

Correct.

Thus my reason for using the qualifier "for the most part".

Silvarus wrote:

Logicality wrote:

Would it be possible for a favoured soul to be chosen against her will, and thus cursed to serve the being that chose her, much as she might try not to do so?

Unlikely. I would say it would be comparable to having sorcerous potential. Not all with magical blood put effort into using it and becoming sorcerers.

Correct. A god cannot make you serve/worship them. They can trick you into it, perhaps even pressure you, but that's not how it works. More often they'll try to convince and convert, more often by their mortal minions than directly.

But it is completely possible to be a favored soul of a deity you have absolutely no interest in serving. It's actually put out there as one of the possible situations in the Complete Divine. Most of these people will turn their back on that part of themselves, just as someone may not explore their sorcerous potential, because of whatever inhibitions they have(they don't want to be "different", their powers seem to come from dark places). In both cases, just because you have it, doesn't mean you want it or even wish to use it.

There are a few theories on how favored souls come about mentioned in CD too. Some are said to be gifted from birth, others that it can be "awakened" with proper study and training/prayer, and as well that when someone starts on the road of become cleric, they may discover it, if they are one. I'm more inclined to agree with the gifted from birth, thing. You give someone powers and special connection to you, there's a good chance they may come to worship you, I guess. Some more of that aggressive, though not forceful, pressuring a god can do.

Logicality

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 17:25 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Location: The Otherworld

That's a shame. A favoured soul that actively opposes his deity, yet accidentally advances the cause of his deity through his every major action, would be an interesting concept, I think.

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Glyph

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 17:27 PM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

Quote:

The faithless are those who defiantly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods. The false are those who betrayed a faith they actually believed in and made a personal commitment to. All judged faithless receive the same punishment; they form a living wall around the city.

please don't make me explain the false the faithless and dual gods again v_v

quote from wiki, about religions in general, city mentioned is kelemvors place in the afterlife...

Dark Immolation

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 18:10 PM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Logicality wrote:

That's a shame. A favoured soul that actively opposes his deity, yet accidentally advances the cause of his deity through his every major action, would be an interesting concept, I think.

I don't think it would be "accidentally". It's just a tricky class on concept all around. Favored Soul doesn't require much "permission" from the deity, at least not as much as cleric, but if you're still using the gifts of a deity that you oppose, you're still kinda attached to them in some way.

If you actively opposed them, you'd just not use it at all. Continuing to use the gift would just seem like you're being a reluctant pussy, in which case the deity still has some hold on you and they may figure they will get you back onto their side down the road. I'd strongly suspect it. If you're a favored soul of Bane, but keep using the evil and tainted divine he's blessed you with, *shrug* you're still kinda giving them some sort of homage, I'd say. Not the kinda that comes with prayer or worship(as you don't have to do either with FS), but still, you're using their power on Toril. They'd likely get some pleasure out of that.

And I'm not sure if a deity can sever the link between them and a Favored Soul, but I'd really think so. Deities can "unchoose" Chosen, and those are much higher up in their clerical hierarchy. If you continually rejected the deity, and actively worked against them, I could see them at least keeping you from advancing as a FS. Short of severing the connection, I couldn't see them preventing you from using it, as again, FS doesn't really ask permission for spells. They just have them and the ability to cast them through innate connection.

Glyph

Posted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 18:28 PM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

read the class desctiption in the complete divine..."are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a divine source other than their deity" also something about they don't get along with their own clerics.

honestly, it will be a tough ride. imho.

I also wonder if wings at level 17 means a spell or...wings O_o and if DM's would give that the all clear at the time. not half-angel after all unless you go sub.

seams they also follow the one step rule, and tend more towards chaotic than lawful apparently, because the rest of the clergy is far too obsessed with doctrine, though not all clerics are that way on amia either.

ed: if you want to be true to the pnp, you must also take weapon focus (whatever your deitys weapon is) at level 3...

ed2: it does mean actual wings...shame srd d20 doesn't have favoured soul class description, I have no link >_>

brooksthegreat

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 11:16 AM

Player

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US

As an interesting sort of sidenote to this discussion, if anyone has the Book of Elder Evils, check out Sertous. A very nice twist on the "no gods but men" thing.

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billytheid

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 11:32 AM

Player

Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Location: Terra Australis

Can I make a Favoured Soul PC named Jeasus?

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 11:54 AM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Glyph wrote:

"are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a divine source other than their deity"

You misquoted.

Complete Divine wrote:

Unlike clerics, favored souls are not able
to devote themselves to a cause or a
source of divine power instead
of a deity. (pg. 7)

You made it sound like they can't worship or have a patron different than the one that favors them, which is untrue. They just cannot devote themselves to an "idea" and get spells. Which is overruled by FR lore that says no one can do that anyway.

And the reason they sometimes do not get along with clerics is the same reason wizards sometimes don't get along with sorcerers. Both Sorcs and FS's wield powers naturally that wizards and clerics, respectively, have to study and meditate upon. The latter two may often see the former two as smug, but lucky, people who don't have the full knowledge of what exactly it is they use. Inversely, the spontaneous two might often see the other two as people too concerned with the method, "why", and "how", rather than results.

...

billytheid wrote:

Can I make a Favoured Soul PC named Jeasus?

Only if you want to find out how fast you can find yourself nailed to a piece of wood upon login.

Dark Immolation

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 12:08 PM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

brooksthegreat wrote:

As an interesting sort of sidenote to this discussion, if anyone has the Book of Elder Evils, check out Sertous. A very nice twist on the "no gods but men" thing.

Couldn't find this on the interwebs. Is it a character name or a class?

But as a general rule, atheism is a bad choice in FR.

Seriously. It's not as badass to be atheist in world where the gods come down every so often and shake hands/kiss babies/make babies. I find it rather silly, especially when you the knowledge of what will happen to you after death is rather easily accessible to anyone in the adventuring field.

QPR

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 13:37 PM

Player

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway

Atheism in FR is like believeing that electricity does not exist in modern society.

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Isaiah

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 16:05 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Ohio, USA

Electricity doesn't exist. It's the matrix projected from the moon into your minds from creatures that can use their whole brains.

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Glyph

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:37 PM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

hm, I guess I did get that quote a bit wrong, I assumed it meant they can't follow a cause other than their own, for example following paladins into a battle without a blessing that such was right from the favoured souls deity (a sucsessful prayer roll maybe.)

also thats crazy talk, everyone knows there are three types of everything >_> electricity is an property of matter.

brooksthegreat

Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 0:50 AM

Player

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US

Dark Immolation wrote:

brooksthegreat wrote:

As an interesting sort of sidenote to this discussion, if anyone has the Book of Elder Evils, check out Sertous. A very nice twist on the "no gods but men" thing.

Long story woefully short, Sertous is an ancient demon from times when the elemental elder dieties existed or some such... "before the first mortal priest knelt to an altar of stone" Supposedly he was a parasite that played hookey during one of the wars between other ancient evils and was cast out of the planes. He grabbed on to the prime material plane and bound with the a serpent and fed on mortals to regain his previous powers until a big honking Solar was summoned to deal with him. The Solar and he were nigh-equally matched, but the solar won out, severing the thing's head. ON his death, Sertous bated the solar "Why serve your lord when his playthings will gain the same strength of power through their own will?"

The angel Avemarin then dealt the death blow, severing the demon's head. Unfortunately, the celestial apparently wasn't the brightest of servants for as it reported back, he shared the demon's secret (or lie, depending on the campaign) and they spread like wildfire.

Quote:

Yet in spreading these words, Avamerin unwittingly
released a great secret. Scholars and priests puzzled over
Sertrous’s dying words and made an incredible discovery:
One need not worship a god to gain the power of divine
magic. Rather than worship a god, a cleric could worship
an ideal and gain the same reward. He could worship the
mountains, or the sky, or the act of war, or himself. He
could even worship a slain obyrith lord. Avamerin saw
this plague of godless priests thrive and was powerless to
stop it. The solar realized his error, and when he confessed
to his lord, he was stripped of his rank and reduced to a
planetar’s status.
Enraged, Avamerin cast aside his servitude and stole
Sertrous’s head, claiming that the dead demon was wiser
than the gods. The gods recoiled and took from Avamerin
his beauty. If he would ascribe such value to a serpent’s
words, he would be one with them. The gods gave him the
visage of a snake and banished him from heaven. Yet the
damage had been done. The angel became the first heretic,
and he devoted the rest of his existence to serving the one
who had opened his eyes. In time, the devotion of Avamerin
and those he recruited to his Vanguard would be enough
to restore Sertrous to life and prove what the fallen angel
had come to believe was the truth beyond the lies of faith.

In essence though, the cult basically boils down to "We don't need gods for divine magic.. er.. even though we're worshiping Sertrous by proxy"

Neat story though. Quite Lusciferian.

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also staring:
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Dark Immolation

Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 1:43 AM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

It's neat. But again, Forgotten Realms overrides things like that. Worshiping ideals doesn't net you anything, in terms of divine. Either worship a god, one of his aspects, or steal it from him, alive or dead.

brooksthegreat

Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 3:04 AM

Player

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US

Dark Immolation wrote:

The book itself has a section about running above gibbly snake demon in Forgotten Realms, so it would seem as the D&D chaps saw fit that it made enough sense to work in the setting.

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also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

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