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Yurell
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 Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 11:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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TeroSNS wrote: Funny, still some people seem to offer pocket dimensions and other theories. Indeed, because it's perfectly reasonable as an IC theory and the DMs haven't reached a consensus about how it works so they're making a suggestion. That's why Tormak said: TormakSaber wrote: This is a situation the DMs have yet to agree on and is why Timesop is not in the bundle of balance fixes that are coming down the pipeline, among other reasons.
There is a DC request that hinges on Timestop affecting the world and not the caster, and previous DM events have supported that lore basis as well.
"Technically" in base 3.5, it's not so much "time Stop", as "Supreme Haste".
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Quarter_From_Nothing
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 11:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Finland (GMT +2)
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TeroSNS wrote: Funny, still some people seem to offer pocket dimensions and other theories. Cause I don't like the whole idea of "über haste". Dimensions are way more fun than any haste. But hey, if it is affecting only the caster, giving him uber speed, it does make the whole world seem slower to him, so in other words it should be server / world wide 'stop'. And IMO, this is something not to be encouraged. EDIT: YOu can't apply the world wide thing cause of the two servers. No way it can be scripted (well) to affect both servers? And Yurell: Exactly my point. Untill official statement is decleared what the heck time stop does, I will RP it as I see fitting. Do remember that you need the sands of time, and one can create some nice rp around it too. *wink* PS: The spell is named -time- stop for a reason, and the incredients sands of -time-. Not sands of speed or speed hack spell. 
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serbiris
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 11:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Yeah, the super-haste thing of the SRD has been mentioned a couple of times, but there's a reason (by which I mean, there are several reasons) some people are still unsatisfied/talking about this. Of all the possible explanations for how Time stop works, super-haste is probably one of the neatest physics-wise. But it's also the least interesting and the least consistent with the "spirit" of the spell at least I see it (ie, causing *something* to actually *stop*). Creating a bubble of stopped time is slightly less neat at least as far as Physics is concerned (if you stick your finger into the border, are you frozen or is your finger frozen, but the rest of your hand fine? Okay "neat" may be an overstatement) but at least it does the job of actually *stopping time*. There are some other good answers out there but for now I'll stick my fave sticker on that one and call it a day. For what it's worth.
...Hmm. The topic of this thread crossed my gaze in just the right way for me to interpret it as "What happens during Timestop... stays during Timestop." ...I choose not to think on this thought too deeply.
Anyway, I'm just lucky I don't have anyone who can cast this and won't for the forseeable future, so I don't have to worry about it.
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@Thanatopsis#6293
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 11:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Quarter_From_Nothing wrote: The spell is named -time- stop for a reason Do not start that. Seriously. serbiris wrote: if you stick your finger into the border, are you frozen or is your finger frozen, but the rest of your hand fine? Something for you to find out IC, as well as whether it's a sharp border or gradual border, or whether that's the case at all.
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hendrack
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 11:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Well, on Amia the spell does have a component called sand of time... 
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Quarter_From_Nothing
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 11:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Finland (GMT +2)
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Yurell wrote: Quarter_From_Nothing wrote: The spell is named -time- stop for a reason Do not start that. Seriously. Alright alright, I won't. I was merely trying to say that I don't see the point (even if it's description says so) why it would have so much to do with caster speed than the odd concept of time. This is fantasy! And it makes perfect sense to create space where time does not go forward for a limited amount oh.. err time? Until the spells energy is consumed. But yea, if the spell actually will make caster uber hasted and fast, I vote for a name change. 3.5 System Reference Document wrote: Time: The rate of time’s passage can vary on different planes, though it remains constant within any particular plane. Time is always subjective for the viewer. The same subjectivity applies to various planes. Travelers may discover that they’ll pick up or lose time while moving among the planes, but from their point of view, time always passes naturally.
Normal Time: This trait describes the way time passes on the Material Plane. One hour on a plane with normal time equals one hour on the Material Plane. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane has the normal time trait.
Timeless: On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait can affect certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane.
The danger of a timeless plane is that once one leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging do occur retroactively.
Flowing Time: On some planes, time can flow faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, then return to the Material Plane to find that only six seconds have elapsed. Everything on the plane returned to is only a few seconds older. But for that traveler and the items, spells, and effects working on him, that year away was entirely real.
When designating how time works on planes with flowing time, put the Material Plane’s flow of time first, followed by the same flow in the other plane.
Erratic Time: Some planes have time that slows down and speeds up, so an individual may lose or gain time as he moves between the two planes. The following is provided as an example.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 12:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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You make the mistake of assuming that our experience of time is somehow different from our experience of causality, that is in this case, the speed with which events follow eachother. All magical mumbo jumbo aside, don't you realize the effect is exactly the same whether you become really fast, everyone else becomes really slow, you stop the flow of time, or you stop moving in the dimension of time? These are all relative explanations and actually identical, from the point of view of anyone experiencing this.
The real problem is whether the effect is localized or universal. I'd ignore the fact that it doesn't affect all areas, because that's a change motivated purely by mechanics: it's lame to pause the game for the whole server. You don't have to assume that it's how it works IC. (Unless localised time distortions are an established part of the spell in Amian lore.)
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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ticket
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 12:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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IronAngel wrote: I'd ignore the fact that it doesn't affect all areas, because that's a change motivated purely by mechanics: it's lame to pause the game for the whole server. You don't have to assume that it's how it works IC. It's hard to ignore when there are characters running around normally while everybody else is under the effect of timestop. Localized makes more sense imo. IronAngel wrote: All magical mumbo jumbo aside, don't you realize the effect is exactly the same whether you become really fast, everyone else becomes really slow, you stop the flow of time, or you stop moving in the dimension of time? It makes a difference to the observers who are not under the effect of the mage's time stop. They would observe the caster moving at normal speed so the caster couldn't really be moving faster. Time is slowed down for the caster's victims.
Last edited by ticket on Sun, Oct 10 2010, 12:28 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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billytheid
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 12:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Location: Terra Australis
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No! As a great man once said; "Up yours Causality!". Please let's not open that can of worms.
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serbiris
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 12:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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IronAngel wrote: You make the mistake of assuming that our experience of time is somehow different from our experience of causality, that is in this case, the speed with which events follow eachother. All magical mumbo jumbo aside, don't you realize the effect is exactly the same whether you become really fast, everyone else becomes really slow, you stop the flow of time, or you stop moving in the dimension of time? These are all relative explanations and actually identical, from the point of view of anyone experiencing this.
The real problem is whether the effect is localized or universal. I'd ignore the fact that it doesn't affect all areas, because that's a change motivated purely by mechanics: it's lame to pause the game for the whole server. You don't have to assume that it's how it works IC. (Unless localised time distortions are an established part of the spell in Amian lore.) By universal, do you mean spanning all the separate planes or covering just the material plane? I ask because I'm not sure if the D&D/Abeir-Toril describes itself as a multiverse or not. Anyway, either way you run into problems that aren't purely mechanical--does Time Stop, a measly ninth level spell, affect gods? If your time stop affects only the material plane, what happens when an outsider views the material plane, or portal into it? At some point, either the universally applied Time Stop -does- have an edge, or one starts to meddle with things that are thoroughly beyond our ken--and then it starts to matter whether you're uber-speed'd, everything is uber-paralyzed, the flow of time for everything everywhere except deities stops... Whether or not this is a problem I don't know enough on the topic to say, sadly...
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 14:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Yurell wrote: Naivatkal wrote: The other problem with that is that Freedom of Movement should technically counter Timestop, mechanics-wise. It's not a paralyze spell which is why I figure how I said it (though others said it before me) works best. It just slows time in a certain sized bubble. No it shouldn't. The DMs are trying to decide whether it's as the sourcebooks say (a superhaste, which Freedom would not counter), or a local stopping in time (FoM is not Freedom from Time, otherwise you'd be able to travel at whatever speed you like, and argue that you're using a different inertial reference frame). Edit: Dammit, I have no high level mage characters and I want to experiment. Get two clocks, one far away, one close to you, and cast Timestop. See if there's a difference between them. If so, it's a local effect on time. If not, it's either a 'global' effect on time, or the caster himself is hasted. That's taken out of context. If you look at what I quoted, I was referring to the opinion that Timestop could be counted as a paralyzing spell. If it paralyzed, then Freedom of Movement would protect against it (since it guards against paralyze) :p
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 15:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Ah, my apologies, I misunderstood.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 17:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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ticket wrote: IronAngel wrote: I'd ignore the fact that it doesn't affect all areas, because that's a change motivated purely by mechanics: it's lame to pause the game for the whole server. You don't have to assume that it's how it works IC. It's hard to ignore when there are characters running around normally while everybody else is under the effect of timestop. Localized makes more sense imo. IronAngel wrote: All magical mumbo jumbo aside, don't you realize the effect is exactly the same whether you become really fast, everyone else becomes really slow, you stop the flow of time, or you stop moving in the dimension of time? It makes a difference to the observers who are not under the effect of the mage's time stop. They would observe the caster moving at normal speed so the caster couldn't really be moving faster. Time is slowed down for the caster's victims. What do you mean there are characters running around? Who are these people who can see this happen but aren't victim to the spell? Everyone in an area is stopped. In the few seconds the spell lasts, you couldn't get close enough to witness the effect anyway, so this is pure speculation that complicates things unnecessarily. Every potential observer is under the spell's effect, so thinking about them is moot. Because there's absolutely no practical consequence that would demand we treat the area as localized as opposed to universal, why should we assume that it's a bubble when all that does it make it even more complicated? Serbiris: by universal I mean applying to everything outside the caster. And no, it wouldn't be strange on planar borders, because you don't actually stop time. Time doesn't move, like I said earlier. Time is a series of moments in which you move. If you stop thinking about the common phrases of the flow of time, the problem disappears. If time is a dimension in which you normally move forwards, there's nothing complicated about assuming magic lets you stop or more backwards in that dimension too. Just like you could stop or take a turn on a street. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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TeroSNS
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 17:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jan 2009
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serbiris wrote: if you stick your finger into the border, are you frozen or is your finger frozen, but the rest of your hand fine? I think as the spell affects only yourself, it goes with you.. somehow... and you cannot go to the edge of it. _________________ My favourite sniper loadout: Huntsman, jarate, bushwacka. Team Fortress 2 is FREE TO PLAY! 
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 18:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Yurell wrote: Ah, my apologies, I misunderstood. It's fine, I just wanted to clarify heh
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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 19:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: What do you mean there are characters running around? Who are these people who can see this happen but aren't victim to the spell? Everyone in an area is stopped. In the few seconds the spell lasts, you couldn't get close enough to witness the effect anyway, so this is pure speculation that complicates things unnecessarily. Every potential observer is under the spell's effect, so thinking about them is moot. This happens quite a bit and should not be dismissed because you say so.
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Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 20:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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How is it possible, though? Isn't the entire area mechanically frozen? I doubt you could enter in such a short time, and even if you could, don't you ICly (and mechanically?) freeze as well? Let's say you cast the spell in the center of the largest area on Amia. We can safely say the spell has an AoE at least that large, then. Obviously this wouldn't be smaller IC just because you happen to cast the spell near a transition. Don't make things more complicated by treating obvious mechanical changes as IC changes, IMO. It shouldn't really be dismissed because I say so, though. It should be dismissed because my arguments are better than yours.  _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Sun, Oct 10 2010, 20:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 20:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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IronAngel wrote: How is it possible, though? Isn't the entire area mechanically frozen? I doubt you could enter in such a short time, and even if you could, don't you ICly (and mechanically?) freeze as well? It shouldn't really be dismissed because I say so, though. It should be dismissed because my arguments are better than yours. People enter the area. Or port in, or so...
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 20:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Very_Svensk wrote: IronAngel wrote: How is it possible, though? Isn't the entire area mechanically frozen? I doubt you could enter in such a short time, and even if you could, don't you ICly (and mechanically?) freeze as well? It shouldn't really be dismissed because I say so, though. It should be dismissed because my arguments are better than yours. People enter the area. Or port in, or so... Yes, but they should freeze as well. If they don't, it's a bug. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 20:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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It's not a bug, it's the way the spell is scripted, because I doubt Suney wanted to throw a massive number of heartbeats down in an entire area to catch anyone who came in, so he chose the "Well, I doubt it happens enough to matter" approach. It does still happen though. I still think everyone is incredibly overcomplicating the situation with "Well this novel says this" and "philosophically, relatively, physically that".
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Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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ticket
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 20:24 PM |
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Joined: 02 Jan 2009
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IronAngel wrote: What do you mean there are characters running around? Who are these people who can see this happen but aren't victim to the spell? Everyone in an area is stopped. Transitions. 9 seconds is long enough to be able to do something during that time even if it's just my character walking pass, bumping into, and commenting on the caster & her victims. And if there's a big multi-area PvP going on, those 9 seconds suddenly become very real. IronAngel wrote: Because there's absolutely no practical consequence that would demand we treat the area as localized as opposed to universal, why should we assume that it's a bubble when all that does it make it even more complicated? I don't understand why treating it as localized is any more complicated than if it were treated as universal. On the contrary, I'd argue treating it as a universal spell is more complicated because it clashes with the reality in-game. The mechanics of the game treats it as localized; what we see is what we get. Naivatkal wrote: If you look at what I quoted, I was referring to the opinion that Timestop could be counted as a paralyzing spell. If it paralyzed, then Freedom of Movement would protect against it (since it guards against paralyze) Easily explained that it's not really a mass paralysis but a slowing down of time for the victims. If there's a magic powerful enough to prolong the Time Stop effect to my character for a thousand years, It would be like he blinked for one second and suddenly the world around him aged for a 1000 years.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 20:33 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Fair enough. If you want to go exactly by the engine, then it seems like it's localized and affects certain people at an arbitrary range that changes with every casting. It's not a bubble, though, since you can enter the area without suffering the effects. It's more like a wave. And in fact, it does ultimately seem that it's just a mass paralysis, only the paralysis is not physical but temporal.
If you want to keep the time aspect and stay simple, though, the most elegant answer is that you stop moving in time. In that case you have to discount the (probably insignifigant) occurances of people walking into a Time Stop, but since we know this only happens because it's the only feasible technical solution and that it's not the original function of the spell, I'd be happy to make that sacrifice. It feels silly to make up IC excuses for what are clearly OOC-motivated details.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 23:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Seem's like at some point in either explanation a cheesey "Magic Did it" will pop up.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 23:25 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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But Magic DID do it. It's a level 9 magic spell.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 23:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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I know.
So stop arguing and come up with a compromising explanation that has large amounts of "Magic Did It" answers.
I swear, the DM team can argue with each other about anything forever.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 23:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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We know magic did it, we're just curious as to how, and people are just tossing about theories that can be tested IC.
Edit: And there's no need to be so aggressive, Selvec. It has very important lore implications depending on how it works - as Tormak said, a DC request hinges on it, and so have numerous DM events.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010, 23:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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I'm not being aggressive, I'm being assertive.
As for how? Why do you know how it works? Its magic.
Thats explanation enough. Some things in magic don't have an explanation, they have no reason for working. They simply work. Thats magic. It's fantastical, amazing and beyond explanation. It's not a science.
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"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 0:14 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Except you're wrong. It doesn't simply work.
Does it give you uber-haste?
Does it stop time?
If it stops time, does it do it locally?
If it does it locally, is the border sharp or gradual?
These are all questions that arise from how 'magic just does it' that can all be tested in game, and as Tormak said a DC request hangs on this technicality. So it obviously isn't something that can be just brushed aside as having no consequence.
In short, magic is a science. It has definite effects that can be tested.
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Grymia
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 0:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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Quoting d20srd.org:
[quote=d20srd.org]
Time Stop
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.
You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.
[/quote]
Essentially, what happens during Time stop is the caster is placed in a form of super-haste as I read the spell. It does not truly 'Stop Time' ..
Beyond this understanding, I would leave it in the hands of the DM's to be safe.
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 0:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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And the DMs are saying that they haven't decided how it works, and they're decision trumps anything else, so we have to wait for their decision, and this decision has implications for DM events and DC requests.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Glyph
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 0:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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if you are moving at the speed of light, physics aside for a moment, it could be either or with the speed/stop. or both if you can get your head around that one, via transforming the surrounding planar properties...
however the mention that you can't move anyone elses stuff, example disarm, suggests your moving so fast it doesn't take effect until the spell ends and the microsecond you just spent at lightspeed.
its not really mechanically true that you can't do stuff while the spell lasts, it just kicks in at the end of the spell, reminds me of that red dwarf episode where they feel the effects of a mugging twenty minutes later, which is amusing as heck.
so I guess after much thought we've discovered time stop puts monk speed to shame, and thats about as much sense as it can make.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Get out scientists.
Physics and any logical thinking have nothing to do with it.
It's magic. Magic is made up of the imagination. Whatever amazing thing you can think of doing (within' reason of not being overpowered) can be magic. It doesn't need a logical reason.
A noticable trend is that people feel there has to be an explanation for how everything magic works. There doesn't have to be. Thats the very essence of magic, and what drives Wizards batty. The fact that some things defy all explanation and just work.
Thats how it is meant to be with Timestop. It doesn't have a logical explanation, it doesn't conform to any silly ideals of science, physics or any other logical form of thinking. It simply is. It's like faith. Your belief is because you believe, and like magic, magic is because it's magic.
Simple.
Creating a spell should not be hard, nor modifying it. You just think of what you want it to do, and it does it. The restrictions upon situations are placed by the DM at the time of their choosing for whatever reason. They don't infact need a reason. The spell works in this situation but not in this situation because it's magic.
So timestop right? Does it stop time? Yes. Then why doesn't it effect the time stream or blah blah blah. Because it's magic. You can't apply real world rules to magic. Because it doesn't exist in the real world. Stop trying to explain it and just sit back and enjoy the fantastic show. You guy's are taking all the fun out of magic. Your taking all the magic out of magic.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Selvec Darkon wrote: So timestop right? Does it stop time? Yes. That's what this entire discussion is about. We don't know if it stops time or not, and are awaiting a DM decision on this.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Does it matter?
Not really. Its magic man. It doesn't matter if it stops time or causes haste. It does what it does, and thats that. Because it's magic. How each person experiences the situation or is effected by it is caused by magic, be it different or otherwise.
Heck, why not say it does both? Because it's magic. Thats what I'm saying Yurell. If it stops time or not doesn't need to be a big discussion. It's magic so it doesn't really matter. It does both, it does nither, and a cow flies about out of sight causing the illusion of time stop and people speeding up, all the while lauging loudly.
Edit: Anywhom. I'll leave as is. Said my part now. If you get it, you get it, and thats awesome. If you don't, well then you don't and not much I can do about it. But DM team, what I'm saying specfically is that if you guys are arguing over logical reasoning, and such, don't. It's magic, and so a compromise should be easy, espically with the explanation of "It happens like this because it's magic". This is the one area of Amia that doesn't need an explanation, even a silly one, it simply needs two words.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:56 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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It's transmuation, so supposedly it's converting your structure/being/composition to move at an incredible speed. Though that's not to say you couldn't "transmute" Time somehow, as there's a spell(Wish/Limited Wish) that allows you to transmute mothafuggin' Reality. My only iffy point there is that you're not really "changing" time, therefore you're not truly transmuting it. In other words, temporarily stopping the flow of a river with a dam is not the same as temporarily freezing the river to ice for the same effect.
I say just fix the spell and leave the exact lore of its mechanics to the Caster RP. I mean, you don't see people arguing over if Meteor Swarm creates meteors or just calls some that are already there down from the heavens.
Because in the end, it really doesn't matter. The effect is what matters. If you are really freezing time in an area and Primordial mumbo jumbo won't let you move things or you speed up incredibly but are incapable of moving people, so what.
In other words, now that I've seen Selvec's post while typing this one, that.
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 2:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Does it matter?
Not really. Its magic man. It doesn't matter if it stops time or causes haste. It does what it does, and thats that. Because it's magic. How each person experiences the situation or is effected by it is caused by magic, be it different or otherwise.
Heck, why not say it does both? Because it's magic. Thats what I'm saying Yurell. If it stops time or not doesn't need to be a big discussion. It's magic so it doesn't really matter. It does both, it does nither, and a cow flies about out of sight causing the illusion of time stop and people speeding up, all the while lauging loudly.
Edit: Anywhom. I'll leave as is. Said my part now. If you get it, you get it, and thats awesome. If you don't, well then you don't and not much I can do about it. But DM team, what I'm saying specfically is that if you guys are arguing over logical reasoning, and such, don't. It's magic, and so a compromise should be easy, espically with the explanation of "It happens like this because it's magic". This is the one area of Amia that doesn't need an explanation, even a silly one, it simply needs two words. I get what you are saying, and I'm sure several others do as well. The problem is that the 'It works because it's magic' only answers one side of the question. 'How does Timestop work?' is a twofold query. Yes, it 'works' via magic because it is magic. However, the question that is trying to be solved is what does it do to those it affects? That's an entirely different thing. We know magic makes it happen, we just are curious as to what 'it' is. Does it paralyze those affected? Uberslow the affected? Uberhaste the caster? Haste/Uberhaste the caster and slow/uberslow the others? Stop Time in a bubble/area? If it paralyzes, Freedom of Movement would nullify it. If it's an uberslow, would hasting those affected making them move closer to normal speed? Okay, that last one is kinda crazy, but I think you get my meaning. Knowing what it does lets us say 'Yes, this counters it. Go you.' or 'No, nothing counters it. You fail.'
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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
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Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 3:07 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Naivatkal wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: Does it matter?
Not really. Its magic man. It doesn't matter if it stops time or causes haste. It does what it does, and thats that. Because it's magic. How each person experiences the situation or is effected by it is caused by magic, be it different or otherwise.
Heck, why not say it does both? Because it's magic. Thats what I'm saying Yurell. If it stops time or not doesn't need to be a big discussion. It's magic so it doesn't really matter. It does both, it does nither, and a cow flies about out of sight causing the illusion of time stop and people speeding up, all the while lauging loudly.
Edit: Anywhom. I'll leave as is. Said my part now. If you get it, you get it, and thats awesome. If you don't, well then you don't and not much I can do about it. But DM team, what I'm saying specfically is that if you guys are arguing over logical reasoning, and such, don't. It's magic, and so a compromise should be easy, espically with the explanation of "It happens like this because it's magic". This is the one area of Amia that doesn't need an explanation, even a silly one, it simply needs two words. I get what you are saying, and I'm sure several others do as well. The problem is that the 'It works because it's magic' only answers one side of the question. 'How does Timestop work?' is a twofold query. Yes, it 'works' via magic because it is magic. However, the question that is trying to be solved is what does it do to those it affects? That's an entirely different thing. We know magic makes it happen, we just are curious as to what 'it' is. Does it paralyze those affected? Uberslow the affected? Uberhaste the caster? Haste/Uberhaste the caster and slow/uberslow the others? Stop Time in a bubble/area? If it paralyzes, Freedom of Movement would nullify it. If it's an uberslow, would hasting those affected making them move closer to normal speed? Okay, that last one is kinda crazy, but I think you get my meaning. Knowing what it does lets us say 'Yes, this counters it. Go you.' or 'No, nothing counters it. You fail.' Does it matter? It does what it does. But personally, look at the name. Time Stop. Not really sure what the argument is. The name seems pretty self explationary.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 3:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Does it matter? It does what it does.
But personally, look at the name. Time Stop.
Not really sure what the argument is. The name seems pretty self explationary. Except the name is completely different to the lore description? And if we're basing it on names, does that mean I can argue that because a spell doesn't do what its name implies, the spell should be changed? No.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Yossarin
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 3:28 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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The DM Team is not arguing about anything. We're not even really discussing the issue. You're basing this all off of one comment Tormak made: that the DM team hasn't reached a consensus. We haven't reached a consensus because it hasn't been necessary.
I know the answer to these questions. The only DM Events it affects, and it does not affect them in any great way, are mine. The DC request it affects is one (or perhaps a handful) of individuals involved in one of those many DM events.
The rest of you are not on a need to know basis, most especially because you aren't trying to figure it out IC'ly, you're just demanding an answer in an OOC thread that you aren't going to get because it isn't relevant to you, but only to those people who may or may not comprehend it.
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Grymia
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 3:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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And I apologize for replying as I did.. I was trying to give the textbook definition as a guideline to run off of in general.
While those events are not directly related to the research my character Tuomas is currently doing, unless I have indication to do otherwise, he's going to percieve Timestop as a super-acceleration , not as an actual stopping of time.
He does have the spell but hasn't used it for any reason to my recollection, though at one point did briefly toy in his mind with a theory of an interesting application for it, that never took off.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 3:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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You should do what I do in these situations: make up my own answer, based on a solid and sensible interpretation of the data, and hope that you are right. Half of the things my main PC seemed to know about was, in truth, just me making shit up on the fly, and struggling against the odds to make it convincing and have as much verisimilitude as possible. It worked so well sometimes that my fabricated answer became the actual workable explanation. Sometimes first in the minds of an expanding coterie of characters/players and from there to "reality" itself.
Other times I was 100% wrong and failed. But I was never too proud to admit it, or afraid to venture my best educated guess instead of being spoon-fed raw data.
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Estara
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 3:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Don't tell me to make up my own answer! I'm not as good at bullshitting as you are. Or as smart...! By instigating us stupider people to do what you did, you're setting us up for failure! Jerk!
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Grymia
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 3:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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Whoa...
I admit, I'm not as good at BSing m'self.. but I'll try to make up the answer where I feel more comfortable doing so.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 5:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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All he's telling you to do is have your characters decide for themselves IC.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yossarin
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 5:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Correct. You may be right or you may be wrong. Everyone else takes the same risks every day, even with our modern day concepts about the physics some of you seem to hold so dear as an explanation for time.
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Estara
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 6:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Oh. I mean, I got that... sorry if I came across upset. I was just trying to be funny. It kind of worked because I fooled you all into thinking I was serious? Maybe not...
I really am much worse at bullshitting though.
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Estara
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 6:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Well, and I was trying to illustrate that I think that telling people to do what you did isn't very good to do through the.. joke. Because some people you are setting up for serious failure. Funnily serious? Seriously not funny? Still can't decide.
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 6:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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So according to the PnP thing Grymia fished up... Timestop is like a short duration GS that negates your ability to hurt others for it's duration, but in return don't let them run around or try to stop your few seconds of nigh-invulnerable glory. Seems awesome to me, let's change it so you can't hurt people in Timestop!  It'd do wonders for balance..
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TeroSNS
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 7:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jan 2009
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Gravemaskin wrote: So according to the PnP thing Grymia fished up... Timestop is like a short duration GS that negates your ability to hurt others for it's duration, but in return don't let them run around or try to stop your few seconds of nigh-invulnerable glory. Seems awesome to me, let's change it so you can't hurt people in Timestop! It'd do wonders for balance.. yeah, they could even remove the required material component then or at least make it more available _________________ My favourite sniper loadout: Huntsman, jarate, bushwacka. Team Fortress 2 is FREE TO PLAY!
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Oct 11 2010, 7:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Yoss: Problem is, nobody's clear on what exactly is observed IC when the spell is cast. These are things that would be readily apparent to PCs but not to us, because we don't know how to interpret the pixels on the screen.
What do PCs see when the spell is cast? If you wander into the area mid-spell, do you see the victims stopped and the mage moving at normal speed? Are you affected too? What is the apparent range? I mean, it can be only 10 meters in the direction of a transition and this is completely random, based on where you stand in an arbitrarily segmented module. But how about upwards? Do clouds stop, or do you see them moving? What about falling stars, if they happen to occur during the spell? Does it affect only people, or water and falling snow, too? It can't affect air, of course, or you'd suffocate and couldn't move anyway.
It's BS to say "figure it out IC." These are things that are readily apparent to anyone who casts or experiences a Time Stop in game, and it doesn't require consulting a DM who may or may not understand all the implications off the top of his head. I think we all know it's not safe to ask a DM in game without giving him time to prepare and consult with the team, if you want consistent and airtight facts. That would be just unfair to everyone.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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