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Alterlife

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 9:39 AM

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Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Location: Bangalore, India

I have a few questions about playing a speech impaired PC.

Browsing through the forum I notice that Amia has two sign languages available:

- Ghostwise signlanguage
- Drow Sign language.

1. How much lore does a PC need to have if they're not of these races to understand these languages
a. partially
b. completely

2. Is there a 'common' sign language? Or am I limited to trying to communicate with actions, when talking to everybody else?

Incidentally, this is my first post, so... Hellos!

hendrack

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 10:17 AM

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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna

Non-drow cannot learn drow handsign as far as I know.

DerkDerkistan

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 11:01 AM

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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth

All the lore about Drow sign language is that it is less of a language and more of a signal system. Which would lead me to believe that it's rudimentary in nature. I have also read that each house develops their own to keep their business to themselves. And yes, as hendrack said, it is not taught to any non-drow. Ever.

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The Peacock

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 11:02 AM

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Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Location: Patrollink ze borderz! Wo ist das Hahn!?

And the reason is that it is considered other races are not dexterous enough to be able to quickly formulate the sign language.

Apparently you can learn it, but you'll need DM approval and loooooong RP with the Drow in order for them to even think of teaching it to you, and even then, people will look at you like you're cheese. And probably lick you... Yeah... They'd lick you.

As for speech impaired characters. They're lame and I hate you.

But GOOD LUCK!

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Alterlife

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 11:34 AM

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Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Location: Bangalore, India

Ok, I guess Drow sign language is out!

Well, I guess if there's no common sign language, and ghostwise sign-language turns out to be the same as with Drow, I definitely cannot make this work... :-(

IronAngel

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 12:44 PM

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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

I'm sure there are plenty of ways for deaf characters to communicate. Why wouldn't they have developed personal sign languages? And of course, many military groups must have some, too. But I doubt there's anything common or global, because there's no modern media or education system in the Realms.

Drow Sign is definetely not crude or rudimentary. It's a complex language that incorporates hand signs, expressions and other bodily communication. Sort of like, you know... real world sign language? >_< That's not crude or rudimentary either, and these paranoid and dexterous drow can probably do even better.

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Naivatkal

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 13:17 PM

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Joined: 26 May 2010

Regarding Drow Sign Language: From what I read, yesterday even hah, it also incorporates some gestures that seem arcane in origin and also the angle of the hand and such can be used to imply tone and everything. The book (Drow of the Underdark, from WotC) also mentioned that if you are not the intended recipient of the message, you likely won't fully understand it. Which I believe means that even another drow might be like 'wtf?'.

Food for thought =D

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Strawberry Stallion

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 14:55 PM

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Joined: 15 Aug 2010

Drow are like magnets. Noone knows how they work, even Drow.

I'm sure there'll be some kind of rudamentary sign language, however crude or non-widespread it may be.

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TeroSNS

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 15:11 PM

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Joined: 26 Jan 2009

Naivatkal wrote:

so if you are to communicate with drow sign language, you -must- send the said tihng in a tell?

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Bravo21

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 16:14 PM

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Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee

Alterlife wrote:

Ok, I guess Drow sign language is out!

Well, I guess if there's no common sign language, and ghostwise sign-language turns out to be the same as with Drow, I definitely cannot make this work... :-(

Not true.

I've run across several PC's on the server who are speech impared. It can be done, it just takes some creative emotes to pull off. Think sharades. Plus you can generate RP just trying to get your message across. Don't be daunted by nay sayers, be creative and run with it.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 16:18 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
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TeroSNS wrote:

so if you are to communicate with drow sign language, you -must- send the said tihng in a tell?

I usually do and from my experience most people who use it will. The whole purpose is to be secretive. Like between two drow when others are around and they don't want other people to even hear that they're talking, even if they couldn't understand it. But even in those situations, I always RP just a *fidgets with his hands* or something so other people might get the idea that that's what he's doing.

As far as the signs being derived from arcane things, from what I remember its actually this: A conversation in drow sign could be mistaken for someone casting a spell(the somatic components of one at least). Which makes sense, I guess. If you didn't know about drow sign that's likely what you'd think it is.

Swallow the Stars

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 17:42 PM

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Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Location: Southeast (USA)

Bravo21 wrote:

Alterlife wrote:

Ok, I guess Drow sign language is out!

Well, I guess if there's no common sign language, and ghostwise sign-language turns out to be the same as with Drow, I definitely cannot make this work... :-(

This. I've done it before myself. You'll be a pure emote roleplayer, then, which is fun and generates exorbitant amounts of roleplay.

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VinceKlortho

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 18:00 PM

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Joined: 27 Sep 2010

I've RPed understanding sign language because Thieves' Cant is traditionally at least partially sign-based.

I played with someone on another server who hung a chalkboard around his neck. He mostly used emotes, but the chalkboard was nice in a pinch.

Oh, also my first post. Love the server, hi to all.

-VK

QPR

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 18:09 PM

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Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway

Just don't emote thoughts.

Also, I guess that if you are careless with sign language around paranoid, mage hating barbarians, you might get pre-emptivly barbstomped. That would be funny.

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corypx

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 18:53 PM

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Joined: 14 Oct 2006

I allways viewed Drow Sign language on the surface one of the most stupid things ever if used at range.

drow are blinded by the sun why if they are halfway across the screen able to make out what thier freind is saying with thier hands/fingers with very slight movment having a motion for every word and seeing it from about 60+ feet away....more of offen 100+ because 3tiles alone is 99feet

if it worked more like Combat formations and signals the army use sure you could see them moving thier army around that far maybe.

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Yossarin

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 19:01 PM

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Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Research communities of the deaf and the mute in colonial America. I did out of curiosity on reading the OP and came across some interesting facts about the conditions and their integration into society in a pre-ASL, pre-LSF society, and imagined how they can be creatively adapted to the Amian setting.

Merrien

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 20:22 PM

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Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas

It can be done well; it is a lot more like charades-- you have to be very creative and descriptive in emotes, but I've seen it done well and have one I played too that no one complained too much about (well, not that I heard anyway >_>) b/c it was all about facial expression, gestures, etc. and she did manage to get her point across at least.

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Gers

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 21:37 PM

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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA

corypx wrote:

There's a feat drow can take in PnP called Daylight Adaptation, IIRC. It essentially nullifies the drow blindness penalties and such. IMO, if your drow's been living on the surface for a few years (or was born there), they should be treated as having the feat.

As for drow sign, yeah... it'd take lots of training to be able to do it. You might be able to "pick up" the meaning of a sign here or there on your own, but you couldn't actually try to use it or read it in any fashion that'd really make sense. And even with training, you'd probably hardly be proficient at it, especially given that each house tends to use it's own individual dialect of drow sign, to throw off those who might be able to read it. Such dialects are only taught to house members themselves, though there's also a common drow sign that just about every drow from a given city would know.

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Zanthair

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 22:46 PM

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Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya

actually, i have a question concerning drow sign..

does it factor into the languages a drow would know based on their int modifier? Because theres drow, undercommon, drow sign, and then quellar sign. thats basically 4 default languages for every drow... OR are they kind of 'written off'?

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Gers

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 22:54 PM

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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA

I'm pretty sure drow/drow sign are seperate languages from undercommon. As for house sign, i've never seen it included as a language unto itself, so I'd think it would come along with drow sign itself.

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Naivatkal

Posted: Fri, Oct 01 2010, 22:56 PM

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Joined: 26 May 2010

I would say that Drow, Drow Sign Language, and Undercommon are their base languages. I dunno about the other you mentioned, hadn't heard of it. But yeah, three languages I'd say, plus the others based on INT mod.

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ainjyll

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 1:26 AM

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Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc

I remember once, quite a long time ago, I got a tell from the player of one pudgy little Hin when my drow used handsign, telling me that they knew handsign. Then they handsigned back to my character... I was like "WTF?!?!?!". That's all.

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Bravo21

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 1:32 AM

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Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee

Zanthair wrote:

Think of it more like the sign language used in baseball. Each team has a slightly different meaning for all the guestures, making for dozens of different sub-sign languages. It's not like drow are the trusting sort.

Sunlight is a factor too, but is unclear post 2nd edition. Originally, drow hand sign relied on complex guestures and a drow's ability to see in the infrared spectrum via infravision. Since darkvision is not actually the ability to see heat, does sunlight interfere? If infravision is no longer a factor, does Drow hand sign become less complex?

This would be a nice thing to have the DM team discuss and clarify, rather than leaving it up to various players. Doesn't need to be complex, just guide lines so everyone's on the same page.

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Yurell

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 2:10 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Infravision would suck, since your eyes are glowing at the same frequency you're trying to see.

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Gers

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 2:40 AM

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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA

Bravo21 wrote:

Zanthair wrote:

Infravision is dead, yeah. I'd say drow sign is based upon hand gestures, facial expressions, and general body posture as well, much like modern-day ASL. There's no heat component to it, but so long as you can see your target clearly, you should be able to understand them. Longer distances between you and who you're communicating with would likely cut down on the information and detail you could convey. "Attack from the left." is a lot simpler than "Circle around to the left, and we'll start making some noise. When they turn towards us, attack after the third rock is thrown at them." The first would likely be a relatively simple gesture, seeable from a good distance, while the latter you'd probably have to be within a 2 dozen feet or so.

Also, this leads to effects such as fog and spells that create mist-like effects possibly having a detrimental effect on handsign communication.

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Naivatkal

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 3:08 AM

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Joined: 26 May 2010

Bah, I messed up what I said about languages:

Drow get Elven, Common, Undercommon (and sign language). I forgot that the 'Drow language' really is Elven, just with a different tone and such (like a British person speaking versus an American).

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Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

ainjyll

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 3:24 AM

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Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc

Naivatkal wrote:

I forgot that the 'Drow language' really is Elven, just with a different tone and such (like a British person speaking versus an American).

Not quite. Elven to Drow is more like Portuguese to Spanish. While they bear very similar pronunciations and even a few shared words, they are completely separate languages and knowing one doesn't mean you know the other.

Bravo21 wrote:

That's not quite right, either. Most of what you see the coaches doing in baseball is utter nonsense. They have a few basic signs for swing away, bunt and don't swing. Then they'll have a key motion that changes. For one game, the key may be a wipe with the left hand across the chest.. the next may be a double tap of the brim of their hat. They just do a bunch of random stuff until they do the key move, whatever comes after the key is what the batter does. Everything before and after that is just to keep the opponent from reading the call.

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BlackDahlya

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 3:26 AM

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Joined: 17 Aug 2005
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Naivatkal wrote:

I would say it is something akin to Portuguese x French. Both have the same root, but one cannot understand the other without having studied the language first. They could understand a word or two, but whole sentences could be a bit more difficult.

But it is just me. >_>;;

EDIT: Damn, ainjyl beat me to it. But, anyway, I would say Portuguese x French, since you can still understand Spanish better than French if you speak Portuguese. At least, it is easier for me to understand Spanish without actually speaking it, than it would be French.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 4:45 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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Drow Sign Language is the most Mary Sue thing ever for Drow, and as far as I'm concerned, any Pc that puts in the time to learn it can learn it. Yes, I have read all the arguments about "body language" the dozen times this has come up in the past and no one has ever managed to adqueately explain to me why someone else cn't lean their body and tilt their hand at a 37 degree angle to acquire the specific meaning of whatever thing you're usngg this language for to be cool and exclusive.

Of course, I am biased: My old Shadowdancer was allowed by the DM team to learn Drow Sign Language from the Drow he worked with.

I consider Ghostwise much the same.

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HellScourge

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 7:09 AM

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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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Fun fact: As far as I recall are there various forms of Drow sign language.

First is there the Informal, common one, and then is there the special Drow House Specific sign language. (Good luck learning the later one)

Eithercase, flipping someone the bird is universal sign language

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IronAngel

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 8:30 AM

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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

What source says that Drow have several hand sign systems, one for each house? Everybody repeats that, but it's probably better to clarify it once and for all and copy-paste the official text here. Most people probably "recall" it because someone said so and they didn't bother to go to the source. Personally, I don't believe it until I see it.

Also: Drow speak Drow. It's not recognizeable to elves, and vice versa. This is what Amia goes by, but it's not "homebrew": it's lore, it's 2E rules, it's common sense. Any novels you read will show that elves and drow don't speak the same language, and so will any lore on the matter. Not even the Elven word for "mother" is recognizeable to a drow, and any linguist will tell you such words are usually among the oldest in a language. The fact that "Drow = Elven" in 3E is purely a simplification of game mechanics to reduce the number of "redundant" RP feats and proficiencies.

Drow get Drow and Undercommon automatically. They don't get Common, it's either/or. Anything else is a class, race or region bonus language.

TormakSaber wrote:

Well, I treat it like Druidic: that's just how it is. I don't even care to come up with explanations, since you're simply not supposed to know it. Granted, the background is likely in the monster nature of drow, giving them some extra mystery and danger. And we all know how well that translates into Amian (or any NWN) PCs. >_<

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Naivatkal

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 12:47 PM

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Joined: 26 May 2010

Yes! I had the analogy wrong, I knew it, but I figured someone would get it right! lol

Also, as far as I know, FR lore states that Drow Sign Language is a bonus language and is not automatic. Good to know!

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Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Sat, Oct 02 2010, 15:00 PM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Thieves Cant is also a sign language of sorts. It uses phrases and spoken word, but a lot of meanings are also converyed with associated body language and gestures.

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Alterlife

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 6:59 AM

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Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Location: Bangalore, India

Wow, this discussion is running a lot longer than I thought it would! I thank you all so much for the input.

So far I've learned that:

1. Drow sign language can be learned but it requires contact with the Drow house that you want to communicate with.

I don't want to do this.

2. Ghostwise sign language can be learned...

My PC is a ghostwise so it isn't a problem for my PC to already know this to start with.

3. Thieves cant is a rudimentary sign language (that according to google uses the bluff skill?!?)

Which still leaves me with questions:

1. Can I have the listening player roll a lore check to understand ghostwise sign language?

Which means my PC would say something like:
[ghostwise sign language] Can you understand me // Roll a lore check of 15+ to answer yes, or roll a lore check of 10+ to answer 'barely'

I would muff up communications suitably in case of a 10+ roll.

2. Can I have the listening player roll a bluff check to understand theves cant? Something like:

[thieves cant] Can you understand me // Roll a bluff check of 15+ to answer yes.

3. What are the limits to Thieves Cant as a sign language? Is there a list of words that I can use... or can I just invent this as I go along?

The idea really is that I will use be forced to default to emotes when communicating with a majority of PC's... but will be able to communicate fluidly with atleast a few of those that I meet.

Also, where do you guys get this lore info? Is it all from some dnd book? I'm sorry for my ignorance... as I said, I R very new to this roleplay stuff!

The Peacock

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 7:40 AM

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Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Location: Patrollink ze borderz! Wo ist das Hahn!?

Muff... lol.

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Gers

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 7:44 AM

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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA

Take a look at this:

http://www.thievesguild.cc/cant/english2cant.php

It's based largely on old english thieves' cant, I believe.

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IronAngel

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 10:02 AM

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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

I know nothing about this Ghostwise sign language. I think it might Amia's replacement for the telepathy they normally get. I can't be bothered to check the books, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

My advice would be to assume rogues know Thieves' Cant and Ghostwise know their sign language, and that's it. If someone else has legitimate reason to know them, they can inform you and roll, if they so wish. Chondalwood elves might have reason to know Ghostwise sign, and bards could know Thieves' Cant, for example. I wouldn't rely on pure rolls, though, because few people with high lore or bluff actually have any IC reason to know these languages.

Alterlife wrote:

Also, where do you guys get this lore info? Is it all from some dnd book? I'm sorry for my ignorance... as I said, I R very new to this roleplay stuff!

Haha, I'd like to know that too. Rule of thumb: trust nobody unless they provide source references. That goes for me too, of course. There are plenty of books that discuss these matters. Races of Faerûn is a good place to start when it comes to playable races, specific questions may have answers in specific books. (There are half a dozen drow books of different editions and varying quality, for example.) Always try to find out where the information is from, because it could be an invalidated book.

Just for reference, here's a list of Forgotten Realms game material. There's of course dozens of novels, and core D&D books in addition to this:
http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/products.htm

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Alterlife

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 11:01 AM

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Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Location: Bangalore, India

The Peacock wrote:

Muff... lol.

Um... I guess I'm glad that I entertain you ^_^ .

Gers wrote:

Take a look at this:

http://www.thievesguild.cc/cant/english2cant.php

It's based largely on old english thieves' cant, I believe.

So it is not a sign language... just some sort of code-speak! Certainly of no use to somebody who can't speak :lol:

IronAngel wrote:

Just for reference, here's a list of Forgotten Realms game material. There's of course dozens of novels, and core D&D books in addition to this:
http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/products.htm

Thank you for that!

I'm beginning to think that there's really no mechanic built in to support PC's who can't speak

.

In which case... Eeh

-Cloak-and-Dagger-

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 11:07 AM

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Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Location: England

On the subject of Theives Can't. Maybe I'm wrong, regarding accuracy to lore. But this is one of those cases where whats cool should overwrite Iron's pdf collection. Anyways, I really don't like the idea of it being treated as a language. Like saying "[Cant] I'm going to commit a heinous crime!" to my accomplice. Or signing the same thing. Not only is that not cool, the chances of getting an unwanted reaction are rediculous, especially with the number of rogue levels floating around. To me Cant should be treated as a style of talking rather than a language. Where you'd say "I'm going to take the dog for a walk", and no-one would think anything of it. Apart from your accomplice, with whom you've previously established that "Dog" means "Orphan" and "Take for a walk" means "Sacrifice to Lolth".

Selvec Darkon

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 11:57 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Alterlife wrote:

Gers wrote:

Take a look at this:

http://www.thievesguild.cc/cant/english2cant.php

It's based largely on old english thieves' cant, I believe.

So it is not a sign language... just some sort of code-speak! Certainly of no use to somebody who can't speak :lol:

Not true. Notice the times thing, that can use sign. A lot of thieves cant can be translated to a sign variation. Not all of the Cant stuff is on that page.

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IronAngel

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 13:40 PM

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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

This is exactly what it is, I think. It's never been specified that I know of.

But yeah, it's not a sign language per se. It's not something designed for deaf/dumb people to use.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Sun, Oct 03 2010, 19:45 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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Yer jus' gonna nip on down to the ol' south n' grab a bite to eat, ye kip? Af'fer that we'll 'ead on down to Jimmy's and rustle us up the old' pipe fer a smoke.

...

EXTRY EXTRY READ ALL ABOUT IT BREAK AND ENTERING, AND ARSON ATTEMPT LAST NIGHT

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xXxSuShiKunxXx

Posted: Wed, Oct 13 2010, 3:13 AM

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Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Location: H-Town Texas

<3 I luff sign language. Wish I woulda replied to this earlier.. xD My advice is to use what I call Personal Sign. Modeled much the same way "Home Signs" were before the "American Asylum for the Deaf and Dumb" (Later named to the "American School for the Deaf", thank god.) Was established.

IE: Helen Keller, (Yeah, I know, she's blind too, and this was after the school was established, but no matter.) when she was a little tike was a complete spoiled rotten brat. (No offense.) Her parents hired her a personal teacher named Anne Sullivan to teach her to communicate. Anne, after observing and disciplining little Helen noting something odd. However never being exposed to sign language, when Helen wanted her mother, she'd tap her chin with her knuckles. This meant nothing relevant in sign language, however amongst her family had become commonly known as the same thing as a child screaming "MOMMY!!!". Something like this can open up great RP, and if done right will enable you to not have to use only emotes all the time. However your "Speech" Wouldn't be as perfect as you may think it would.

{Deaf Guy}: *Claws at the air with his index and middle fingers, gaping his mouth open.*

{Normal Girl}: "Dude.... Are you okay?"

{Deaf Guy}: *Repeats the motion.*

{Normal Girl}: "What are you saying?"

{Deaf Guy}: *Points at a zombie in the distance and repeats the motion.*

{Normal Girl}: "AHH! ZOMBIE!!!!"

{Zombie}: *Waves*

Of course this is obviously much like teaching people individually what you are saying, but after teaching someone IC, using either this emote method, or just writing it on paper and teaching them, Im sure you could simply:
{Deaf Guy}: [Personal Sign] Zombie!

But like I said, eventually the "Speech" would be off, lacking things like linking verbs, and a few plural words.

{Deaf Guy}: [Personal Sign] Zombie! Go before eat brain!

"Obedience without understanding is a blindness, too." ~Anne Sullivan~

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