AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - A question about Wilturn and stance of its guards

Last edited by Strikeclone on Sat, Oct 23 2010, 0:56 AM, edited 1 time in total.

NPC Guards
In the situation above we never got the chance to see how the other party felt about what the guards might think about him digging up their dead. However after the fight the grave robber stated that they wouldn't care as they were not Kelemvorites.

My understanding from what I have read on these forums is that Guards of a city enforce the laws of that city (obvious enough) however in this circumstance I want to clear on if the guards should have been taken into account by the graverobber?
Graverobbing has to be a crime in most civilized human cities? And it was being done in daytime right under the noses of the guards, and its the dead of the guards on city/region.

Metagaming or not so much?
I win and lose in pvp all the time on Amia I play alot so I roll those kind of dice alot I have no problem with loosing a well RP'ed fight in much the same way I dislike winning a poorly RP'ed fight.
But this fight really got up my nose, a stranger digs up bodies in right infront of npc guards in broad daylight and is predicatably challenged by the party of clerics and paladins along with their companions. Meanwhile random passerby "decides" that based on the fact that he doesnt like humans he will interfer on the side of the grave robbing, helm'ed complete stranger against the other helm'ed strangers.
After a couple of buffs have been applied to the grave robber he then attacks the party without further ado whilst still getting buffed by the helpful passer by. The random passer by then gets on with his journey and the grave robber his...they just happen to be going off talking like old friends dispite oocing that they were strangers icly.

We were the loosing party in the fight so some might drop a witty one liner "sore looser" so I ask the court for their opinion completely understanding that the other side will of course have their version of events.

Is this the quality of RP pvp these days or is this a rarer than I might think?
I am not sure exactly how long I have been playing on Amia now its got to be around a year or so? Not 100% on that. But I am curious is this more or less typical for RP pvp these days?

I am not mentioning any names this isnt a stealth attempt to bash them or anything I am just genuinely curious as per my underlined points.

SC

[edit have checked for spelking mistyks but its near 2am and my eyes have stopped working, and have edited those post as requested was just trying to give relevant background to the questions didnt mean to step on toes.]

Remove the first three or four paragraphs and this thread can continue.

It's against the forum rules to mention specific situations like that. You can however PM a DM about it. I highly suggest you do.

Please phrase your question in the form of a question.

I think hes kind of asking the guards right by the gate and on wall of wiltun, facing the graves(for the job system) were being robbed IC is that metagaming the guards......I think

Yossarin wrote:

Please phrase your question in the form of a question.

Check the headings Lally.

Yeah, the questions are underlined. >.>

I'm too sleepy to read.

ANyways if you feel metagamed by players or have concerns I'd really rather a DM just be PM'd. Even if you think it's small potatoes.

I am trying to think of a way to make the questions more clear without going into further specifics regarding the situation that has generated the questions as its been pointed out this is against the rules.

So now I am wondering how does a player discuss anything here without refering to specifics in order to give a context to the questions. Are we saying that I should just take it up as a complaint with a DM?

But I shall try to clarify the questions

NPC guards: Should players be taking into account NPC guards and not be doing naughty things right infront of their noses in broad daylight?

And would for example digging up bodies in the Wilturn grave yard literally right in front of Wilturn guard npcs count as one of these situations where NPC guards should not be ignored?

Is the following considered meta gaming.

Two players working together even though their characters are IC strangers, for one who has no IC reason to do so to just show up in the area, and start buffing the other who just happens to be picking a fight with a group he knows to be of lower level characters by doing naughty things under the noses of NPC guards.

(Won't go into specifics of any particular situation but for the benefit of the example lets assume that that two players are aware of the fact the group is made up of lower levels due to IC chat that was overheard by the aggresor but which was not communicated to the buffer IC)

Lastly, I hope anyone gets what I am driving at with these questions...

Is this kind of token "RP" common place to justify a pvp fight to grief lower level characters by one or more epic level character?

(for the record I have several epic level characters and have never tried to set up any character or party of characters to be my pvp toys with or without the use of token RP, I prefer to handle a situation with RP based upon the background and concept of which ever character I am using. Rather than RPing the level of the character)

@ Lally I hear you, I wasn't originally wanted to complain and cause trouble (paradoxically I know given this post) I just wanted to ask my fellow players for their take on some point about how the situation was handled.
This stuff happens alot to me but I accept I play alot and so will be exposed to alot more chance of meeting players whose tkae on RP and the rules of the server may differ from mine I guess what I am trying to do is test if I am being far to hardcore on my RP expectations for Amia and thereby being to harsh on the actions of other player. Or are there (as I believe) certain players on this server who are just paying lipservice at best and blatantly violation at worst the letter and spirit of RP rules.

If the DM's would like some counterperspective to the Metagaming issue, I was present and watching the entire thing so your free to ask me.

djones9916 wrote:

If the DM's would like some counterperspective to the Metagaming issue, I was present and watching the entire thing so your free to ask me.

Watching what? This is not about a particular situation this is all hypothetical as its already been pointed out that its against rules to talk about specific situations. And the point of the exercise is to see if the example given could be considered metagamy as well as the other points.
If I require DM assitance rest asured I Will be sure to use a PM to speak to them about any specific things and specific players involved should I deem it best.

I do appreciate your trying to keep out specifics, but the players involved know who they are most likely. What more than often winds up happening is we get a pm in our inbox saying" this dude is talking about me." That's why we encourage just popping it over our way if you're worried rules got broke. Less grumbles.

Lally wrote:

I do appreciate your trying to keep out specifics, but the players involved know who they are most likely. What more than often winds up happening is we get a pm in our inbox saying" this dude is talking about me." That's why we encourage just popping it over our way if you're worried rules got broke. Less grumbles.

well in thier case I would say tuff luck they are being talked about, public postings like this help people get a better understanding of how things are IC so others know befor having to get a DM.

like in this case it brings up the questions of how NPCs act when PCs are around graves(assuming all graves would be job system useable)

are guards just like
"random people doing stuff around graves who dont live here, nothing odd with that *does not watch or care*"

or are more like
"hmmmm I dont know them and they dont look like they live here and they are dressed in black with red glowing weapon.... maybe I should make sure he is not digging up our graves for zombie parts"

That part is a good question, yup. I'm concerned here about the buff and grief lowbies bit, personally. But that's up to OP if he decides he wants us to know whats going down.

Lally wrote:

I do appreciate your trying to keep out specifics, but the players involved know who they are most likely. What more than often winds up happening is we get a pm in our inbox saying" this dude is talking about me." That's why we encourage just popping it over our way if you're worried rules got broke. Less grumbles.

In the original post i did detail the incident that prompted me to post in the first place however i never used a single player name before or after I did edit it down some and to be brutally honest I don't care if an involved player twigs on that he was involved in an incident I post about, the important thing as far as that goes is that I am not naming anyone.
So I am not prejudicing other players not involved against any players that were. If an involved player is readying this and actually things "yeah prehaps I did take the complete piss with the Amia rules and I will mend my ways" then my work here is done if they disagree well thats their choice.
Either way I am not taking it personal and trying to flame or hurt anyone just trying to highlight some issues to the wider community.

Furthermore surely if we all clam up and never talk about stuff like this the server will decline in the quality and quantity of the RP, which I personally already feel is happening through incidents like this and the use of party chat as a means to by pass RP which I see in groups time after time so much so that I have a disclaimer on every character I play.

[Party chat filtered, RP or it didn't happen]

I think a great many player on this server need to refresh themselves on the rules and spirit of those rules or otherwise go and find a nice action or PVP server where they can get the type of playtime they deserve.
For those who just like to grief, they have no place on this server and I would urge player to bring a DM into it (I won't on this occasion because of this thread. However in the future I think I will make it a point to report those I feel are violating the ethic of this server, and fully understand that there maybe players who will do the same to me. Infact I hope they do as this will help refocus teh community as a whole on the RP nature of this server in my opinion.)

Strikeclone wrote:

Furthermore surely if we all clam up and never talk about stuff like this the server will decline in the quality and quantity of the RP, which I personally already feel is happening through incidents like this and the use of party chat as a means to by pass RP which I see in groups time after time so much so that I have a disclaimer on every character I play.

I could also argue that taking issues into the forums in lieu of taking them straight to the people that can fix these issues is directly involved in them not being solved. It happens a lot, and it's usually born out of frustration and a want for people to know how you feel wronged.

You say these things happen to your character all the time, and I apologize greatly if that's true because it must be very frustrating and no doubt prompted these questions. But to a DM, having a player say these things happen to them often and being able to do zip about it is equally frustrating.

We can't force players to report what they feel may be widespread issues. We can only hope they believe us when we say we'd rather they do than don't, ya know?

I'm not angry or confronting you or saying you did anything terrible, I just want our players to have a good time.

In the situation:

1. There are only so many graves that are used in the job system...and one of them is in wiltun. The DMs can't make EVERY existent graveyard a usable part of the job system, so it forces players to have to use the one right there(which incidentally, was placed there by dms as part of the usable job system). Obviously if the DMs thought using it was metagaming the guards, they wouldn't have placed it there.

2. Regardless of what occurred, provoking a pvp incident and taking part of pvp is pretty tantamount to taking a shot from any direction. There are many instances when someone shows up during pvp and jumps into the fray...by buffing their friends or even throwing an offensive of their own. In the end this person has every right to jump in as well, whether it was because he had a grudge against the characters involved, or simply because he hated (insert profession or race here). But if you do get into pvp(Especially if you provoke it), you forfeit anyone's need to RP in favor of PvP...and some players will take advantage of that and attack.

Quote:

But if you do get into pvp(Especially if you provoke it), you forfeit anyone's need to RP in favor of PvP...and some players will take advantage of that and attack.

Im not a DM so I dont have an offical ruling on this at all but.. Seems this mentality does go around and I believe it to be TOTAL crock.

RP before you start PvP and RP before you enter pvp. To often people initiate their RP with a bigby w/o any words or other actions. To often people just jump into battle for no seeming reason other than they want to partake in some PvP.

At least yell stop, or a warning, or.. Something. It takes no prowess or skill to just jump on a character and kill them without warning. And it adds NOTHING constructive to the game other than a bit of self-ego inflation..

Please.. Rp.. Thats why we're here.

I think you misunderstand me. When you engage in PvP(through RP such as threats and such)....expect or at least suspect..that someone may show up and get involved without RP...because they don't have the time type out anything whilst their friend is being slaughtered.

When action starts, the time for RPing emotes and such has practically ended....do I like it? Not really. But I understand it.

I understand, and disagree.

I dont believe anyone ever forfeits their entitlement to RP before PvP.

Part of the problem is, there are uses for the Graveyard that'd be legitimate, *Dead people have to go somewhere* so they have to balance THAT into it too.

Palemaster wrote:

I understand, and disagree.

I dont believe anyone ever forfeits their entitlement to RP before PvP.

For the most part, I agree.

In the heat of a combat situation? If your character doesn't get the heck out of dodge or elsewise find a way to convey clearly they're not a combatant, then you are still in the middle of a fight. (and considering how fights get, honestly making tracks is safer.

Grymia wrote:

Palemaster wrote:

I understand, and disagree.

I dont believe anyone ever forfeits their entitlement to RP before PvP.

For the most part, I agree.

In the heat of a combat situation? If your character doesn't get the heck out of dodge or elsewise find a way to convey clearly they're not a combatant, then you are still in the middle of a fight. (and considering how fights get, honestly making tracks is safer.

What did you mean by the Underlined comment? I Don't understand :S

(Running away, if you don't wanna fight, think.)

'Ragi nailed it.

Making tracks = Running away.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

In the situation:

1. There are only so many graves that are used in the job system...and one of them is in wiltun. The DMs can't make EVERY existent graveyard a usable part of the job system, so it forces players to have to use the one right there(which incidentally, was placed there by dms as part of the usable job system). Obviously if the DMs thought using it was metagaming the guards, they wouldn't have placed it there.

The situation didn't involved anything "job" related but did involve desecrating graves and the bodies within using emotes to convey this and followed it up with a couple of lines of IC dialogue about it.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

2. Regardless of what occurred, provoking a pvp incident and taking part of pvp is pretty tantamount to taking a shot from any direction. There are many instances when someone shows up during pvp and jumps into the fray...by buffing their friends or even throwing an offensive of their own. In the end this person has every right to jump in as well, whether it was because he had a grudge against the characters involved, or simply because he hated (insert profession or race here). But if you do get into pvp(Especially if you provoke it), you forfeit anyone's need to RP in favor of PvP...and some players will take advantage of that and attack.

The actions of the grave robbing character I mentioned was the provactive act that created the hostile situation, the buffing and first strike made by the grave robber provoked the actual pvp.

Further more as I tried to make clear everyone involved was fully clothed in armour of some sort and I think with the exception of one dragon kin everyone was also masked of helmed so for the buffing stranger to justify his random application of arcane magics on another stranger "because he hates humans" holds zero water.

If paladins can't detech evil at will without concent of the target, how can a character claim to know one helmed biped from another.

A random stranger who without the benefit of being involved in the extremely brief IC exchange to simply burst in and start to cast powerful magics on another stranger is extremely suspect.

Doubly so if its later stated by them that the ICly don't know each other.

And as they committed the hostile action first (first with the buffing, second by actually attacking without any warning or chance to RP it or back down) suggesting that those they attacked forfeited their right to expect RP, seems to contradict everything said here http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=347755#p347755

Lally wrote:

I could also argue that taking issues into the forums in lieu of taking them straight to the people that can fix these issues is directly involved in them not being solved. It happens a lot, and it's usually born out of frustration and a want for people to know how you feel wronged.

If this was about a newcomer to Amia making an honest mistake or just being ignorant of the rules I Would agree here, however as this was clearly a couple of griefers (in my considered opinion and with some wider experience of griefing in general) so I don't feel particularly bad about simply trying to use my experiences to highlight a what I feel is a growning problem. I certainly don't feel bad for using a specific recent incident as at no point have I named names, if either of them is reading this and feeling shamed or happy I don't care either way.
However I am sorry I didn't PM a complaint to a DM before posting, but I think I still would have made a post about it because I have seen day after day ( I play alot) a downward spiral in certain aspects of conduct due in some small part because new members to the Amia inherit the bad habits and disregard for the rules from some longer standing or high level players.
If we dont talk about the things we see wrong how are they to be addressed, and this wider issue would not solved by whatever resolution a DM may have given on my specific case as the result of course would have only been relevant to those individuals concerned.

Lally wrote:

You say these things happen to your character all the time, and I apologize greatly if that's true because it must be very frustrating and no doubt prompted these questions. But to a DM, having a player say these things happen to them often and being able to do zip about it is equally frustrating.

I am not saying its common place server wide, although one of my questions was asking other players if they had had similar experiences. I play alot as I have alot of free time these days so I understand that I roll more dice and thus will roll more '1's on average than someone that plays much less.

Lally wrote:

We can't force players to report what they feel may be widespread issues. We can only hope they believe us when we say we'd rather they do than don't, ya know?

I will certainly report stuff in the future like this, however I am more likely if I am honest to just ignore similar situations outright which I know some will say makes me a meta gamer.
But I come here to have fun with other players some of whom have become regular group mates and I'll be damned if I'll be held hostage to having to line up to be owned to satisfy some twisted urge of a cowardly player who hasn't the stones to go to a PVP server where he might get a fair fight and loose.

Lally wrote:

I'm not angry or confronting you or saying you did anything terrible, I just want our players to have a good time.

Likewise, hence me posting and rolling the dice vs troll and flame :lol:

Oh no no...I'd rather they did..no matter how silly or trivial it seems. But they usually don't cuz they don't wanna bug us, which makes us go

If I felt that this were coming from a standpoint of genuine curiosity, I would deign to answer the questions. But I'm sensing a specific incident wherein somebody had their ego bruised and now needs a DM to assuage it.

The answer is painfully clear to me, and it is somewhere between the direct wording of bbks and Palemaster's standpoint.

Lally wrote:

Oh no no...I'd rather they did..no matter how silly or trivial it seems. But they usually don't cuz they don't wanna bug us, which makes us go

I have to admit, I'm STILL somewhat wary of bothering DMs unless it's absolutely nescessary and not just in matters like this, but in matters of lore and similar.

Grymia wrote:

Lally wrote:

Oh no no...I'd rather they did..no matter how silly or trivial it seems. But they usually don't cuz they don't wanna bug us, which makes us go

I have to admit, I'm STILL somewhat wary of bothering DMs unless it's absolutely nescessary and not just in matters like this, but in matters of lore and similar.

I keep bugging them whenever I need a question answered or problem solved. It helps.

Are you 'Suuure' they don't get annoyed? :cry:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Are you 'Suuure' they don't get annoyed? :cry:

Not when one asks nicely. Proper communication makes everything go more smoothly and prevents confusion from turning into drama.

If we're talking me personally, I get way more annoyed if someone doesn't ask or tell us what's up.

If you get annoyed easily by questions you couldn't do this job

Yossarin wrote:

But I'm sensing a specific incident wherein somebody had their ego bruised and now needs a DM to assuage it.

Perhaps as a DM you should keep opinions like this private as this just makes you look like a toll.

Bosie wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

But I'm sensing a specific incident wherein somebody had their ego bruised and now needs a DM to assuage it.

Perhaps as a DM you should keep opinions like this private as this just makes you look like a toll.

Except that it is what actually is going on when people make threads mentioning spesific incidents in almost all if not all cases.

Yossarin wrote:

If I felt that this were coming from a standpoint of genuine curiosity, I would deign to answer the questions. But I'm sensing a specific incident wherein somebody had their ego bruised and now needs a DM to assuage it.

The answer is painfully clear to me, and it is somewhere between the direct wording of bbks and Palemaster's standpoint.

You could not be more wrong if you tried, I have won and lost many fights in Amia I dont give a rats arse if I loose, but do care when I am confronted by griefers, metagamers and DMs who troll.

If I had replied to a thread in the manner you have to mine then there is no doubt I would rightly be called out for a troll.

But still I will take the bait (again) please explain how my post makes you feel this way.
Because the situation was real and it happened more or less as I discribed, if the grave robber and his buffer had lost I would still have massive issue with the metagaming and the ignoring of the NPC guards and would still want to bring travesties like this to the forum (Forum = place of discussion) for public review and thus we would still be having this chat.

Not a happy chappy, is this the time I call on (another) DM... :roll:

Yossarin wrote:

The answer is painfully clear to me, and it is somewhere between the direct wording of bbks and Palemaster's standpoint.

Yes, I thought this exactly as well, very perceptive.

Bosie wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

But I'm sensing a specific incident wherein somebody had their ego bruised and now needs a DM to assuage it.

Perhaps as a DM you should keep opinions like this private as this just makes you look like a toll.

No, he should not, because he is correct.

TormakSaber wrote:

No, he should not, because he is correct.

No he is not. If I wanted a DM to stroke my ego I would have involved a DM about the specific incident and the specific players involved in order to somehow "win" I have taken great pains to actually avoid naming names and I notice that neither you nor Yoss have actually address my questions. Neither have you quantified your replies, on some forums its considered very bad form or even trolling to give glibe onliner type answers.

If you actually want to quantify my bruised ego find out how many posts I have made of this nature? You will find its just this one, dispite having my arsed kicked dozens of times since I started playing here ages and ages ago.

The fact is if someone, anyone even a DM is going to call me out they should either provide specific quotations and their responses to explain and illustrate why they feel what ever it is they feel or else they are a classical forum troll.

Is it or is it not against the rules to ignore NPC guards.

Is it or is it not a requirement of the core Amia rules to have sufficient RP to justify pvp

These are imporant questions I want answered the result of the pvp fight is completely irrelevant and I would greatly appreciate it if DMs could contribute by making points not scoring them. All it does is derail the threat into a tit for tat exchange that will then result in a locked thread.

I am frankly shocked that one DM has already engaged in meaningful dialogue and two others have just completely undermine it in this fashion without even a crap token effort to justify it their opinion.

And you wonder why people shy away from involving DMs... :roll:

Not taking your bait, Strikeclone. Didn't the first time, and won't now. I did, however, answer the heart of the question in a concise yet indirect manner.

Yossarin wrote:

Not taking your bait, Strikeclone. Didn't the first time, and won't now. I did, however, answer the heart of the question in a concise yet indirect manner.

bait? lol pot = kettle much?
whatever lock the thread, there wasn't sour grapes before but I feel the seeds of some growing now, reap what you sow.

I am quite surprised at the attitude of the representatives of Amia. Good thing you are unpaid volunteers.

No sour grapes here. You're still acceptable when you're not up in arms over a minor issue. The bait I refer to is your initial bait to win a DM's answer to your side in an IG dispute, which I refused to take, and the second bait was you becoming indignant at my evasiveness.

Most of the folks who are watching from the wings see what's really going on here, and Kudark at least saw my succinct answer to your questions. You should probably take a little time to cool down.

This may seem harsh to you but people making threads about spesific incidents has been a problem in the past and has always led to drama of some sort. You may not like it, but it is true. It is one of the rules that is absolutely necessary.

Yossarin wrote:

No sour grapes here. You're still acceptable when you're not up in arms over a minor issue. The bait I refer to is your initial bait to win a DM's answer to your side in an IG dispute, which I refused to take, and the second bait was you becoming indignant at my evasiveness.

Most of the folks who are watching from the wings see what's really going on here, and Kudark at least saw my succinct answer to your questions. You should probably take a little time to cool down.

Silvarus wrote:

This may seem harsh to you but people making threads about spesific incidents has been a problem in the past and has always led to drama of some sort. You may not like it, but it is true. It is one of the rules that is absolutely necessary.

I have used a specific incident to highlight a wider group of issues that have been building for a number of months of high activity in Amia and my observations and direct expereinces there in.

I dont know how else I can make this point clear and I would greatly appreciate if Yoss and DMs in general and others would not convict me of being a prissy lemon sucking tart on the basis that others are.

insinuating then flat out stating I am some sad ego maniac doesnt not alter the fact that shit is going wrong in places. But you just want to bury your heads in the sand and convict me of the sins of others.

Meh! what ever just lock the thread, unfounded slurs to my personal character unlock my inner forum whore OCD and I have to try and defend myself.

I can understand your frustration, but you aren't under attack here. There's just been statements of fact that are detrimental to your character, but that's nothing to get angsty about when no one else but you is reacting bitterly. Learn to have a little grace, and all will come out roses.

And do not confuse a lack of public response in tune with the overdramatic OP with sticking one's head in the sand and ignoring an "issue". This "issue" you bring up is nothing at all new, and also nothing at all easy to solve, particularly when there are minor details that occur on the management side of the server that inject a little confusion into the matter.

The easiest solution is a bending of the individual mind around the problem, which is what I have done since I was a player here, before I was ever a DM.

It disgusts me on some level to ever explain myself to anyone, but it is one of those things you have to do with people who feel they need explanations that they cannot or are afraid to come up with on their own. So if you really need a deeper or more meaningful examination of what you see as a problem, I encourage you to take it to PMs with me, in particular because I am a DM that tends to oversee Wiltun and its odd sometimes inconsistencies...but I am loathe to stand on some pulpit and solve the world's problems by posting everything on my mind here when it is the individual's problem (yours) that is more important to me. Otherwise it reeks of arrogance.

A question about Wilturn and stance of its guards

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