I don't see it as that bad. I mean, if you're doing decent damage, a multi-round KD and target being blinded for turns has the same outcome as devastating in the course of a round or two.

I'd say these changes ruin my RP...but then I NEVER RP these things to begin with...so from an RP perspective...you can look as Dev Crit as now "My character is old and my ultimate mage killing godly powers of quickly ending any fight thus not allowing any emotes to even be typed were stripped. oh no."

As for GS you can RP it as now "My once great spell that allowed me to talk crap safely and remain in it day and night and also cast spells of death from a magical shield of invulnerability is gone...oh no."

Actually I like the changes that got rid of the god builds....the only other thing I would have suggested is instead of Dev crit doing the Blind/deaf/dumb is that it simply did double damage than a regulr crit....but I'll live...and so will everyone else..

This. Three attacks per round (buffed) with no bonus hp. A spellblade was finally worth it. I can agree to the 1d4 str/dex/con, and the loss of fort and ac, but the loss of attacks, ab and hp?

Keep the changes, but remove the 1d4 con bonus, give us the hp, ab and extra attacks back please. One has to build very specifically (sacrificing spellcasting power, spell foci etc.) to get a spellblade that actually works and does hit something. The bonus attacks and hp boost made it worthwhile, since a mage can't dish out damage like others do and nor should they. The former Tenser's was just making it less crummy to combine steel and arcane, and actually fun as hell.

If the changes aren't subject to change, it looks grim for the spellblades out there. Will be sad to icly back down from a guild, because Mystra doesn't favor those who combine magic with steel.
Not to be too bitter (its hard, haha), but why use a spell that leaves you with no magic (excepts previous cast buffs) and just a mildly increased ab, abilities and disc? The lack of damage from the extra attacks brings it back to NWN scratch again. The bonus attacks is really important for a class with 1/2 bab progression. Sorry to say, but unless you have LOTS of fighter etc. levels, you won't get anything out of it. Not anything satisfying in melee anyways. Too many 1 bab progression levels and your mage part is almost worthless (no epic spells and spell penetration worse than a PM). Its like going melee with an AA. As Uberuce says: "It will hit like a sickly kitten", except AA's have better ab and more attacks. Consider Tenser's a dead kitten. Rant over.

I do like the other spellchanges however, gs is a bit sad, but still fine I think. Makes it more exciting playing a mage where you have to use tactics to get away victorious.

The dev crit seems almost as powerful as before. I can't see why this change would upset anyone. KD with no discipline check, plus blindness, deafness and silence? It equals deadness!!! Casters will be doomed, as if they were beheaded.

Overall a step up (except Tenser's). Bigby's is actually really well made. Swell done.

*signed*
Dr. Cry-a-Lot Angerson

*edited for whiny personal content, which made others whine back*

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I saw these changes and I thought 2 things:

"What, again?"

and

"Are you freaking KIDDING me??"

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The Incredible Johnny Space

'Sand'

The Shadow

Master Lemming

I'm with you Burning, my character gave up getting those hard weapon master hits getting high damage due to RP with a dev critter who taught the quick strike and kill. Now suddenly, she is unable to drop her enemies? This affects her position because now she's too weak to keep it. Any why is that? Boy, you got me... Saying to just go with it doesn't quite help me out, cause I actually RP'd the characters build, every single bit of it. I'm going to need a rebuild at the very least and guess I just pretend the dev crit kills were a dream? Help!!

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Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

On the bright side, the Dev team like to do drastic changes, only to adjust it in time, so everything is not lost yet... I hope

*signed*
Dr. Hassom Hope

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I guess it kind of depends. I just tested DevCrit out with Sakkran and he dropped the royals in less than 2 minutes. Your build has a lot to do with it. (And no, he's not a WM.)

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Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu

The only thing I have a small problem with. Is the heal potions.
If the changes are going to be as they are, I would propose a significant decrease in the price. . The point of the potions was to be healed fully. . I mean, On a server where it is constantly on hardcore (Being able to be crit by monsters/Attack of oppurtunities with potion drinking, point blank shooting/Rolling for the amount of HP that potions heals).. Where your potions normally may heal... 15-25 hp... when being hit by serveral things, which get attacks of oppurtunities, which may or may not hit you, and make the whole process of drinking the potion infact entirely pointless aside from a few seconds more of life.

The true problem here is that Heal potions are used primarly in PVP which winds up with "Who ever has the most money wins."
Quite frequently PC's in PVE ~NEED~ the heal potions to be able to survive an ambush. . and quite frequently they need to drink more then one at a time to be able to get out of being boxed in. For those with low AC or HP.
So with that in mind, I have a suggestion. . that the timer be activated for the heal potions only when a Hostile PC is nearby. That or raise the price of the heal potions to say... 76k a stack.. Hell, maybe even 100k a stack... that way they really are expencive. .and are worth what they heal. . or worth more then what they heal even.

Death on Amia is nothing, I admit that... Comming from another server where the minimum xp loss you can get from a death is 5% total XP and the maximum loss is 9% total XP. The gold costs for the Average death was 6000gold. And that was if your body was around for it. If your body wasnt, you could have someone raise you at a temple, which would cost 45000gold. Those two Rezzes would result in an average 5% of your total XP being lost, and that wasnt using the Raise or Resserection spell.
The raise or resserection spells would be free, but would cost the most XP to have done, Raise would be 9% total XP loss, and Rez would be 7% total Xp loss... but this is irrelevant for the current argument, but it does show how lite death is on Amia.
But still, Death is Death, its plain annoying. No one Enjoys being killed out in the wilderness.
For those who can not buff themselves adequately it comes even easier in some area's.. and without the help of the Full Heal Potions they are likely to be screwed. Because other potions quite simply dont heal enough HP to be usefull at later levels, when things can hit you for 40 damage a swing, or crit often enough to make even drinking one small potion utterly pointless.
As I stated above, I believe that the main reason for the change is PVP. "He/She who has the most money wins, and can gloat about it". If it's possable, something to even out the PVP and PVE of it. Would be to enable the timer only when a hostile PC is nearby. . . OR, have the timer activate when the PVP tool is activated by a player, and for the player who activates it target.


Wait, I lied.. Not the only thing I have a problem with.
Raise Dead & Ressurection.
I understand the cooldown for Raises and Rez's in PVP.. Because I imagine its plain annoying going into PVP and killing someone, or two people, then someone comes in from the side and rezzes them, then you have them attacking you yet again, and again, and again... I wouldn't know, I try to stay out of PVP personally.
But a 2minute cool down could be quite annoying in the PVE area... although admittedly, it can add for a little bit of RP during the time you need to wait for the timer to be ready to do the Rez, but it could also be quite annoying... Say, if you need to get out quickly.. or its a dangeriously unstable area that the person died in, so you want to rez them and get the hell out so you can drag away whatever is causing it to be dangerious, keeping you alive and the person you just raised.
Although the way around that of course would be running out of the area entirely, and waiting for the spawn to either despawn, or just regrouping then charging back in to rescue the fallen.
So I guess I managed to even out the bad with the Raise and Ressurection thing mid Rant.. So it can likely be ignored, but I'll leave it there anyway.

Infact, here's an idea with the Raise/Rez thing... Instead of Timers... Perhaps the Spells need Reagents to work.. Or the raised Target suffers a sort of ressurection sickness.. which could be a temporairy level/stat drain.
Which actually to me, makes sence.. because in PnP. .When you die, you lose the last 6hours of your memory.. or at least thats how it was allways played with me. So having that stat/level drain penalty after a raise/rez would be fitting.. the person who got raised can either wait for it to wear off, or can see a cleric or NPC priest to have it removed.
To go with the idea of reagents for Raise/Rez, perhaps the scrolls could be increased in price.. or, a second scroll added which comes with the reagent and offers a clean rez.
Or hell, making it so that the effect from Raising/Rezzing is impossable to take effect while in combat.
Or even having the spell cast on the character, starts the timer for the rez... Say, someone see's a corpse, hits Raise or Rez on them.. then walks off... a Minute later said person is braught back to life.
I do like the cool down for the PVP part however. I think the only people who should be able to raise people constantly mid fight, should be possably Necromancers or Pale Masters, who animate the corpses of the fallen.. other then that, the 5 minute cool down on PVP raising is I believe a good idea, that way people cant win a battle through shear numbers, because someone raised someone else many times during the battle which lead to the side who got killed many times, winning.


Alright, Rant over. I hope some of these ideas are actually helpfull aswell =)

-Rayne

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You may clip our wings, but we will never forget what it was like to fly.

People, don't go rebuilding your chars over Dev just yet. Firstly, because this is pretty much the beta, and you know changes and adjustments will be made. Secondly, it looks bad upon you as a player. You're seriously telling me your whole rp and playability is ruined over one change? Perhaps a rebuild down the road, but certainly not worth archiving a PC over. General butthurting not going to help anything get changed, just voice your suggestions and you know it will eventually get looked at.

For devastating, I know I'm Rping it as a blow that's so forceful, it pretty much KO's the target for a short period of time. In that same period, it is very, very easy to kill them. *shrug* Nothing really changes unless you were doing sheeet damage and relying on dev to kill things outright.

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BlackDahlya

Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath

I think the new Dev is kinda fun, actually. I don't find it to be anything to shelve my character over. Consider rebuilds over shelving, really. If you have a high damage character (even without Dev)... you should be fine and it's pretty damn entertaining to watch. Most people don't actually react quickly enough in PVP to think to use a restore if someone is trying to pummel them. I do have to agree that maybe the heal potions should be slightly cheaper. But considering that they will still do full heal after 10 rounds...

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Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu

HiPS? How doe that need to be fixed?
Far as I can see, it's already balanced (with the exception of he OOC rule that you should do it near shadows, that is)

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

...Have you ever fought someone spamming HiPS? Doesn't sound like it. What's been discussed mainly is a cooldown.

A question:


By cooldown do you mean since death, or since the last use of these spells?

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Solution to most grumbling about the changes mechanics wise;

Pick your Fights. It's typically the IC thing to do to ensure survival. A dev-critter on their own against two opponents? Either pick your target right, or decide odds are not in your favour. Same goes for the Mages and Clerics with GS. Unbuffed? Take the out or diffuse the situation, or alternatively; pick the spells that'll buy you time or take them out quick.


As for the IC, well. It happens. Bending RP Logic is quite common, I mean, why is it that suddenly the areas around the east coast of the Skull Crags mysteriously expanded, despite there being no obstacle to prevent passage? Had the ships travelling between Kohl and Cordor never once noticed a massive coastline? Why is it that Hil'rash suddenly changed from being a conniving undead to a chain smoker overnight when Cordor changed?

Little less precious will help here. When a HiPS change finally gets working, the SDs will have to bend a bit to try work out why suddenly they're less apt at jumping in and out of shadows quickly. Same as the Shifters had to when their forms suddenly overturned and all of their spells and abilities changed. Work with it and do what you can. The spell ones are quite easy. Of all people in the Forgotten Realms, only one truly knows how magic fundamentally works and every single machination of it; and that'd be Mystra (And Ao, and White Light, if you want to be crazy padantic). "Something changed". Make theories. Hell, make it a launchpad for other RP. Investigate it. You don't need these things given on a silver platter to make it work.

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Mostly Retired

Since death.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

I think it's amusing that I inadvertently hijacked the build thread with everyone and their siblings telling me my dev-critting rapier build was 's00per 3pic cheeze', and now that dev crit gets nerfed...it's the end of the world. "What?! I can't use GS to buff my 'spellblade' to hell-and-gone, then dev-crit your backside straight to the afterlife?!"

Give me a break; it was changed for balance. If you have a valid point, voice it. If you just want to whine...quit it. It's annoying. Seems like we have a competent dev team here...and they DO kinda own the content. Online mods are a 'play at your own risk' kind of deal: we're all Beta-testers. I paraphrase, but as I read earlier in this thread: if your build centers around one spell or one feat, sorry about your luck.

Those of you bummed for the RP ramifications, I get that...but dev crit (for sure) and GS (not a finger-wiggler, so I'm guessing) needed to be nerfed on the server. I don't have an answer how to RP it but since everyone's in the same boat, I'm sure whatever you come up with will work smashingly.

Alright. There's absolutely no need to be getting insulting. People are voicing their concerns and their questions.

We are all aware that the RP ramifications kinda suck... but, we're all smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. What I think everyone is more interested in is the changes themselves and if there's something confusing or what it'll do.

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Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu

Im a big fan of the GS nerf.

GS was a mistake by bioware in NWN. In real PnP rules its closest thing is ethreal shift. Which would make attacking/casting spells impossible.

Great escape mechanism still, as it should be.

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The Old Man ~ Tribe of the Damned

All comments above are strictly the biased opinion of a player.

The other Bigby spells have a concentration check at the moment. Grasping hand holds someone until they free themselves, or you decide to do something beside keeping them in check.

P.S. I should save the Tenser's changes to this topic, and the rant for the rant topic, I agree. Butt it hurts nontheless, icly most. Yeah, will bring rp to the table definetely.

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Thumbs up all around; thank you vury much for the changes.

That was suggested (mainly be me and IronAngel) in another thread, about 6 months back, but was wildly unpopular as an idea.

I'm in favour of the Heal cooldown (though I think it should be longer, but I guess in PvP/PvM a minute is a looong time).

The raise cooldown is tricky if you get caught in an area you can't handle - if you have to run and can't drag your friend out... well, he has to bite the respawn bullet. Don't attack if you don't think you can win. In PvP, it means you have to RP over the corpse for 5 min - you can't 'ooc raise' them and toss them through a portal or haul them away until that time is up.
I would, however, like to see just the message 'you can't raise this person yet' rather than burning your spell along with it. If I was paying for scrolls I'd be cheesed at losing them with no effect. There's no way of knowing exactly how long someone's been dead unless the corpse noted the time and tells you OOCly.

As a non-PvPer, GS for me was a way to play tourist and go places I couldn't. I'm bothered that I can't do that any more, but from a game PoV it makes sense - you really shouldn't be going places you can't handle. I suggest anyone who's thinking of using GS to escape combat should instead take 4 levels of SD for the shadowjump

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~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

Another question: Is there / can there be a message when someone can be raised? Something along the lines of "John Smith can now be raised"? If there isn't, I think this would be useful if it's not too difficult.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I have actually had to experience the level drain/stat drain on another server. It is annoying, but once you can rest, it goes away. Unless it bugs, then you have to relog. >.> Either way, I'd support that idea myself.

And some sort of heads up on raising would be good, yep. Otherwise, you could be standing there in the middle of an Abyss spawn looking dumb and praying.

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Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu

Yeah I can add a message no problem. I thought the whole blinky-redness would be enough indication though.

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

Hmmm.

Does Dev Crit adding Knockdown for X rounds kinda make the Knockdown feats less useful?

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Actually... I believe te Dev Crit KD could glitch... if someone is dual wielding kukri. . or maybe not even dual wielding them. .or a scimitar... The KD effect being applied multiple times a round eventually glitches it and the target wont stay KD'd. It happens when people spam the KD or IKD feat aswell. So I don't see how it wont happen with Dev Crit either.

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You may clip our wings, but we will never forget what it was like to fly.

I'd say not. Criticals are based upon the roll of the dice. You can KD at will. Their effects overlap a bit, but my dever ain't gonna get rid of KD just because he has another ability that can do it now. It'd be unwise to rely on probability when I really gotta incapacitate someone.

Hee hee hee. Bring on the panicked rebuilds.

I consider rebuilding a very important investment. One which I'd consider very carefully and not make in a tumultous market, unless I knew for darn certain what was going to come.

xD

Oh I know that, I mean the effect of a KD is still applied. . and when someone is KD'd they become flat footed, which works towards your dice rolls.. if you have a 12-20 crit range, the chance of getting the crit is obviously higher, and you can crit 2-3 times a round in some cases. . with this happening the KD effect would be applied several times in one round, and if its applied in the next round, or even the next, the person being KD'd may glitch and not actually stay down, the KD would happen, but they would get up straight after, ignoring the KD entirely basically.

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You may clip our wings, but we will never forget what it was like to fly.

I like all of the changes, personally!

Except GS duration. >.> I can't play Healer with my weak little cleric anymore. Oh, well! Oh, and the Ranged Dev Crit bug thingy. xD But that's just one little thing that's being looked into.

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That was a concern for me also. That a Kurki STR build with Duel Wielding could basically keep you on your ass forever. Which makes me wonder how the heck that's possible.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Perhaps a cooldown for Dev effects? Would disallow spamming of it without effecting the heavy weapons much at all.

Possibly Easy Fix. Dev Crit only fires on the mainhand weapon. Easily justified as the off-hand not having enough driving strength mid-blow with only a single hand to swing/thrust with when trying to counter the other weapon's weight and movement.

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Mostly Retired

Remember that they need to fail their save first or else nothing happens, except a normal crit of course. So unless everyone suddenly throws away their Fort gear I personally do not see how the new change will affect anything in that matter.

I am also dissapointed in the duration for GS but since it is not said that it will stay like it is currently I am fine. Love the new changes.

That doesn't fix that the person who scores a dev every other hit could still do so multiple times in a round, brain. It's the spamming in general that's the issue, not the dual-wielders.

A cooldown from the moment of the dev would be better, IMO. Say 5 rounds. Would mean "okay, you devved me with you kukri, 1 round effect. After I get up, 4 rounds before I can be effected by it again. You dev me with your greatsword, 3 round effect, after I get up, only 2 rounds before I can be affected again."

Yet another positive nod to heavy weapons devving.

True, but that'd be a rather nasty hit, I mean. Yes, I think we can all agree that light-weapon devvers are uglier than tubgirl, but you don't want to make the feat outright pointless. Just significantly less effective.

Though, a short delay could work. Hell, duration of KD + 1 round timeout. So after each 'Dev' wears out the opponent only gets one turn (or part of, depending on timings) to do something about their situation

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Mostly Retired

Now that would be good. Having a cooldown on it like that. Nothing is stopping them from using the Knockdown Feat then. . but also the Delay on the next effective Dev Crit KD will also make less chance of the possability of the glitch which makes the person getting KD'd ignore the KD attempt.

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You may clip our wings, but we will never forget what it was like to fly.

Hasted WM Duel Kurki with Keen can fire off enough crits at a knocked down enemy that the enemy will land a bunch of 1's.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

That seems reasonable.

Yep, I like.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Ok So I cried a little.. then I found the actual announcement. I'm fine with just about everything except the GS duration. I believe it's a little too short.. and although the spell/potion/scroll breaks it.. I'm good with I can live.. and I understand why.. Just for such a high level spell to become.. in my eyes useless is pretty bad.. might as well remove it from the game because I personally will never use it again.

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Plays: Mina Ashby, Meche, and Winter Addams

Heal Kits and GS.

Does using a Heal Kit now break GS? If not, its the same issue as using a Heal Pot in GS. You get instant health back. Most Wizards have low enough health with enough skill points to spare that spamming three heal kits or so will get them back to full health in no-time.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I am rather upset now with the restriction on raise dead/resurection... sure I understand it keeps people from running around and raising, but seriously... it shouldnt effect resurection too... my cleric just has to stand there, waiting, until the glowing wears off just so I can do my job and continue RP -_- this is more of a hassle than its worth imo

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Keelah Se'lai

My post got eated ><

Anyways, yeah that seems like it can be a pain. A cooldown would be good, as long as it's not terribly long, and would allow HiPS assassins to still reliably use this class ability

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Grrm..

Rounds/level on GS is 'Fine'
Not 1 Round per 20 levels ><

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

E'd cries with you, as the value of GS cloaks might take a dive.

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If they didn't already.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856