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Rosencrantz
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 Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:03 AM |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Glyph wrote: thats cornersneaking, its what rouges do. hide 'in plain sight' means just that, you hide in a shadow, literally. any nearby shadow thats big enough. the rest of the detail is better discovered icly.
I wasn't too concerned about the current changes but this bothers me. Probably because you mainly play an SD and not so much the other affected classes.
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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Glyph wrote: thats cornersneaking, its what rouges do. hide 'in plain sight' means just that, you hide in a shadow, literally. any nearby shadow thats big enough. the rest of the detail is better discovered icly.
I wasn't too concerned about the current changes but this bothers me. Yes. The point is: both rogues and SDs should be able to cornersneak freely. "Hide In Plain Sight" should, however, not be spammable several times a round or something. That's what is supposed to be fixed, without disabling cornersneak. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:06 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Nah, Rozen. You haven't been dramatic from what I've seen.
That said, I'll admit, RP and Mechanics are linked especially in a world where PvP does occur. This is an undenyable fact and I'd be claiming some severe level of ignorant thought were I to say otherwise. However, I staunchly believe that the emphasis placed upon this is extremely overblown to the point of hilarity. I won't say a well played villian, but let's say a "Talented Sneak" or a "Compotent Fighter" should have a build that allows one to compliment this, such as the Sneak having a build that allows the full 33 SP in both Hide and Move Silent, and the Fighter being able to muscle out an Epic Weapon Focus. These are fine.
However being overly precious about these, IMHO, is insane. If your character ultimately does amount to nothing more than "Compotent Fighter" or "Big Bad Blackguard" or the like, then yes, these nerfs greatly affect you as a result of your character being nothing more than a sum of his feats, ability scores, and attack bonuses. So what if your Fighter becomes a bit less apt at fighting? He's still a fighter, and more importantly (Or so I would sincerely hope) he is still a character with a personality, with skills (even if those skills are less effective than before), talents, and moreso - traits, history, and something that sets him apart from being nothing more than a Tuigan Fighter 8 / Rogue 3 / WM 19
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:09 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Re; HiPS. All Hide in Plain Sight is, is the ability to hide from an individual while they are observing you. Now, that doesn't much make sense for a cooldown, but that's a balance point whereas I was just talking about the RP.
A Shadowdancer can still (and should still) be able to compotently corner-sneak, because in fact, that's what they're still doing. Amian Shadowdancers aren't hiding in a shadow - they are simply utilizing one as a free action to create enough of a visual diffusion that they can hide as any other individual would (IE; they're using it to instantaneously break Line of Sight, without something actually being there). That's the thing that the spamming ability needs to be removed off.
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Glyph
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:22 AM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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wrong, my most current build was a dev critter, after reading the changes I shruged and though awesome, 4 on hit powers, no more one hit duels.
I haven't really got an answer to that, just no. hips isn't a cornersneak, you use shadows and the powers of the shadow planes, to conceal yourself, but not self concealment. none of the above involves sneaking behind anything, you can hips in the shadow of a cloud on a rainy day.
I can sort of agree with the spamming it thing but this line of sight stuff has no basis.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:25 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Try Rules and Lore, Shadowdancer Lore. Rules and Lore wrote: HiPS is an optical illusion used to momentarily allow nearby shadows to conceal you long enough to appropriately hide, despite being watched. You must be within 10ft of a shadow large enough to conceal half of your body that is not your own to use this ability. Cannot be performed when glowing or giving off light (though can hide while under the affect of Faerie Fire and other effects that are merely to outline the subject (faerie fire has a -20 hide scripted in).) Concealment = Obscured or Broken Line of Sight. Enjoy.
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Rosencrantz
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:26 AM |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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BrainSplitter wrote: Nah, Rozen. You haven't been dramatic from what I've seen.
However being overly precious about these, IMHO, is insane. If your character ultimately does amount to nothing more than "Compotent Fighter" or "Big Bad Blackguard" or the like, then yes, these nerfs greatly affect you as a result of your character being nothing more than a sum of his feats, ability scores, and attack bonuses. So what if your Fighter becomes a bit less apt at fighting? He's still a fighter, and more importantly (Or so I would sincerely hope) he is still a character with a personality, with skills (even if those skills are less effective than before), talents, and moreso - traits, history, and something that sets him apart from being nothing more than a Tuigan Fighter 8 / Rogue 3 / WM 19 You can have a character with personality, history, character, purpose, background, psychologial profile, ect ect ect and still care more about your build than putting skills in the right slots and making sure to grab epic weapon focus. You can still be a Big Bad Blackguard with a 'Big Bad' build and be an excellent RPer. (See: Darthion) In fact, taking Darthion. Do you think his impact on Amia would have ended up the same if he only cared minorly for his character's build -as well- as his RP? But let's ditch the villain example for more variation. Let's say I have a.. Helmite! And I see some villain blatantly going against the laws of the region/municipality/country/whatever.. My Helmite is going to engadge him and it may go to PvP. The problem is, I find myself on my PC's side. I want him to win. Which may the wrong way to see it and maybe being more dettached from the fate of your character may produce better RP (And I'm definately not saying you should throw a fit if you lose like most do. I think if you lose, you should go with it and see where it goes!), but I find being dettached fully like that to limit.. well.. how -attached- I can get to them... If that makes sense.. I want my Helmite to have a pretty tight build so that he doesn't lose every fight. Mind, I don't want or expect him to win every one either. But certainly I want him to win as many as he can. Certainly there's nothing wrong with prefering the RP of your character to go one way rather than the other most of the time and to try to put in place the mechanical foundation to steer it towards that direction. Certaintly I would get more and more dettached from my Helmite if I build him half as well as I could and he loses almost every fight he goes into in the name of Law.
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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
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Uberuce
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Dark Immolation wrote: That doesn't fix that the person who scores a dev every other hit could still do so multiple times in a round, brain. It's the spamming in general that's the issue, not the dual-wielders.
A cooldown from the moment of the dev would be better, IMO. Say 5 rounds. Would mean "okay, you devved me with you kukri, 1 round effect. After I get up, 4 rounds before I can be effected by it again. You dev me with your greatsword, 3 round effect, after I get up, only 2 rounds before I can be affected again."
Yet another positive nod to heavy weapons devving. I'll see if I can get this effect to happen on the test server. 'Yet another' nod? Did I miss the first ones?
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:31 AM |
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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TormakSaber wrote: I posted this to Voronwer already. See, I mastered this on my paladin and wizard, so when PvP came? I handled it with flying colors.
You see, you generally have a ltot of spell slots. There exists this metamagic feat called "Extend Spell". What it does, is doubles the duration of spells. This allows you to cast your turns/level, or, heaven forbid, your hours/level spells (the non obtrusive ones. Hell maybe the obtrusive ones!), and you *just let them run.* When they wear off, you do this thing called "Resting", which you can easily do because extended buffs last a really long time, even as a level 16 caster. So while you're RPing, you do this thing like, where you emote praying and stuff. And then you rebuff. That way, if PvP happens? All you have to do is like, toss up Power, Favor, and smash. Maybe drink a haste pot or whatever. See, because of this, the OTHER guy can't sit in GS and buff either! I agree completely that this negates the need for GS, except I (for some reason) find the concept of using a god's gifts when there is no need to be out of line. Maybe I'm in the minority, likely I'll move to the crowd that uses all the long term buffs every chance they get...but right now, it just feels wrong. And I'll admit that my character used GS like a crutch, and I have always felt that it needs to be changed. My main concern is that it's going to fail as a means to escape, too. I don't think there's a single character that can't read a Polymorph Self scroll and run down the cleric/mage that's trying to flee. Their scroll lasts FAR longer than the cleric/mage's GS spell will work, so they will successfully hunt them down.
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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:34 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Rozen, I think either I'm mispresenting what I mean, or you're misreading it. One of the two.
Wanting to win? Totally natural, totally justified. A character that has justification for getting into combat likely having a build to allow this? All good.
My issue is with the perspective that if this becomes harder, or tweaked in any way other than 'Better' than the previous, that the character is suddenly invalidated as a whole. That's my main complaint. Just because you can no longer instagib with your combat-oriented character, doesn't mean shelf it or have a giant blast about it.
Anyone who knows my old main Eary knows he was heavily combat oriented, always wanted to win, and rarely backed down from a fight. However, if suddenly, say - NonAA Archers became completely pathetic somehow, I wouldn't consider it in any way an invalidation or 'break' in the character. If anything, it'd be a damn good bouncing point for RP, as the character comes to realize "Oh dear, my main weapon is no longer efficient, I better do something". I find that approach both more constructive - and more useful for keeping one's sanity - than the perspective that if your character can no longer mechanically fulfill the requirements you want it to, that the character is thusly invalidated.
That said, character attachment is extremely bad, in my humbledore. The perspective that the character you operate is 'Yours' is a dangerous perspective to have, as it implies control, and thus the belief that really - you are the only one with the power to determine everything about that character. This, I personally find, to be extremely damaging to both the mallaeability of a character (and thus the ability for the character to last longer and still be valid in its environment), and also the ability of the player to enjoy both the good and the bad.
That's just my opinion, though.
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VitrossBeckett
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Location: Australia GMT+10
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Farewell greater sanctuary, for i loved thee so!
Farewell happy fields of bliss
Welcome, Sorrow! Welcome, pain... recieve thy new posessor...
*sobs like an unlicensed child pc who has just been noticed by the dm team*
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Glyph
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:36 AM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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again you missed the point, your saying make hips default to hide and 'cornersneak', forget semantics a moment, what your saying is that once spotted by anything, you could no longer make a dash for it with the possibility of hiding again unless you found a wall.
i'm out before I say something I would rather not. I have read the damn lore.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:38 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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HiPS is Cornersneaking without the requirement of a Corner. That's exactly what it is, at least on Amia. "You can Hide while people can see you". The Cooldown ideally would block the ability to hide while people can see you for a short duration.
I would like to think I know the damn lore, given it was Me, Tormak, and Mahtan who expanded, defined, and wrote it all up.
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Glyph
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:45 AM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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originally I went by the core manuals til I did the sd training in/on? a certain plane, I get what your saying, I just don't see why you would have to revert to rouge sneaking for 5/10/more seconds when you spent the levels on sd, and considering cornersneaking in its own right can trump hips if you go the more rouge, less/no sd path. two different ball parks...
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:48 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Balance. It breaks the mass of glitches and exploits made possible by being able to, freely, rehide instantaneously without breaking LoS as a free action. Hence the cooldown. The IC of it? Easy - you can't draw upon the shadows for that sort of optical effect so quickly without it being insufficient to conceal you. Thus, the person you're tyring to hide from, still sees you;
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ShadowSoul89
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Location: Somewhere...
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DerkDerkistan wrote: And I'll admit that my character used GS like a crutch, and I have always felt that it needs to be changed. My main concern is that it's going to fail as a means to escape, too. I don't think there's a single character that can't read a Polymorph Self scroll and run down the cleric/mage that's trying to flee. Their scroll lasts FAR longer than the cleric/mage's GS spell will work, so they will successfully hunt them down. Could someone provide an answer to this, please? I'm curious.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:54 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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A Scroll takes a full round action to read in NWN's timings. In that space of time you can get a good amount of distance. Also that person cannot do anything to you, still, other than chase you (likely at the same speed as you're moving). They can't attack you with spells, because they're shifted, and the same goes for ranged attacks. Therefore the most they can do is follow you, on foot, at PC Movement Speed (the same speed as the guy in GS). Even if they're hasted there's little they can do to you while shifted that isn't negated by you continuing to run. Even using Flame Breath with Red Dragon Shapechange doesn't work because you run out of the range before the full action completes and runs its damage / effect in the area (as you must stop moving to cast a spell or use an ability)
To which you simply go to an area where the fight cannot take place. Such as a No PvP Area, or an area filled with PCs who will protect you, or even an area where your opponent cannot safely fight.
So, ultimately, you get a nice big head start. That said, a simple Speed Increase could be useful.
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Dwagin suggested adding an Expeditious Retreat-like effect to GS.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ShadowSoul89
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:56 AM |
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Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Location: Somewhere...
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Curiosity sated... for now.
PS. The Shrine wants you back, Reh'Cra cries daily over the missing Eary.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:59 AM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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I could drag him out for a cameo for a giggle, but I'm far too busy with Army Training and my labouring job to get back into the frequent-player side of things. >.> Anyway. Back on Topic
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Rosencrantz
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:59 AM |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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BrainSplitter wrote: Rozen, I think either I'm mispresenting what I mean, or you're misreading it. One of the two. Oh. BrainSplitter wrote: Wanting to win? Totally natural, totally justified. A character that has justification for getting into combat likely having a build to allow this? All good. Okay. BrainSplitter wrote: My issue is with the perspective that if this becomes harder, or tweaked in any way other than 'Better' than the previous, that the character is suddenly invalidated as a whole. That's my main complaint. Just because you can no longer instagib with your combat-oriented character, doesn't mean shelf it or have a giant blast about it. Agreed for the most part. I mean, when I first heard about the changes and realized. 'Oh crap! No GS and Forceful anymore!' I thought my mage was going to have to step down and mainly be a support role. And.. well, she still might since I really dislike Time Stop/IGMS spamming. See Above. But a few hours later I had calmed down and realized a few things that I think everyone should.. 1.) I'm not alone in this change and won't be the only one affected. Everyone's going to be a little clumsy while they're figuring everything out like they're going through puberty. And that kind of puts everyone on a more equal level, temporarily. 2.) The changes arn't permanent. If there's a real problem that arises and a real embalance occurs to the affected classes, making them more crippled than expected, it's going to be seen to and likely fixed. 3.) The change should be small enough that everyone can adapt to it with given time. It will change Amia, but that isn't a bad thing. It's just change. And there's some excitement that comes with change. Again, if the change is actually bad it will seen to and things will be fixed. So I think complaints and raging is fine.. So long as you get over it. Also. What's 'Instagib'? BrainSplitter wrote:
Anyone who knows my old main Eary knows he was heavily combat oriented, always wanted to win, and rarely backed down from a fight. However, if suddenly, say - NonAA Archers became completely pathetic somehow, I wouldn't consider it in any way an invalidation or 'break' in the character. If anything, it'd be a damn good bouncing point for RP, as the character comes to realize "Oh dear, my main weapon is no longer efficient, I better do something". I find that approach both more constructive - and more useful for keeping one's sanity - than the perspective that if your character can no longer mechanically fulfill the requirements you want it to, that the character is thusly invalidated. Yes. You can certaintly choose to make your character more realistic and dynamic and actually create RP and build the character more from the nerf. I don't think everyone is going to want to do that however and I don't necessarily blame them. If they find that they simply won't have as much fun with the character and would have more fun with a new character with the changes, then I say go ahead! This game is ultimately about fun.. Not how many server changes your character lives through. BrainSplitter wrote: That said, character attachment is extremely bad, in my humbledore. The perspective that the character you operate is 'Yours' is a dangerous perspective to have, as it implies control, and thus the belief that really - you are the only one with the power to determine everything about that character. This, I personally find, to be extremely damaging to both the mallaeability of a character (and thus the ability for the character to last longer and still be valid in its environment), and also the ability of the player to enjoy both the good and the bad.
That's just my opinion, though. Now this I completely agree with. It seems miscommunication is going both ways. When something bad happens to your character, it can be fun and build the character as well as a good thing. Sometimes more than a good thing if the 'bad thing' has much depth to it. Heh, the other day one of my characters was brutally tortured by a demon for like a RL hour. It was gruesome and, as mentioned, brutal. More so than I'm used to.. Almost unsettling, but it was realistic RP that was done well and instead of moping I was emoting paragrahs and 'just going with it'.. It added a whole new layer to that character, in the end.
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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
Last edited by Rosencrantz on Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:03 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:03 PM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Instagib is a term shamelessly stolen from older, more arcadey FPS games like the Unreals, I believe. Either way, I use it to denote anything that classifies as a somewhat-reliable "I Win" button, such as High-Threat-Range Dev Crit or Greater Sanctuary.
IMHO, not liking the changes is fine. I mean, no one -likes- their characters getting weaker. But raging and complaining over it is neither productive nor effective. If anything it serves to make it worse, simply because of the age-old effect of group mentality, and the fact that one person raging will inevitably make someone else more likely to rage; at least in online communities. The perception of support for a 'cause' often makes that cause more justified, somehow.
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Rosencrantz
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:07 PM |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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BrainSplitter wrote: IMHO, not liking the changes is fine. I mean, no one -likes- their characters getting weaker. But raging and complaining over it is neither productive nor effective. If anything it serves to make it worse, simply because of the age-old effect of group mentality, and the fact that one person raging will inevitably make someone else more likely to rage; at least in online communities. The perception of support for a 'cause' often makes that cause more justified, somehow. Yes, I suppose that's true. I should say being upset is fine. Although I personally find no issue with people expressing themselves how they want to within tolerable bounds.
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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
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Glyph
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:08 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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I personally think the change to GS was too drastic. I am imagining panicked mages running for their lives as we speak...ones who used to wander about in sanctuary to prevent being ganked because they sway toward the lower end of the alignment table...we shall see.
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Rosencrantz
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:10 PM |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Glyph wrote: I personally think the change to GS was too drastic. I am imagining panicked mages running for their lives as we speak...ones who used to wander about in sanctuary to prevent being ganked because they sway toward the lower end of the alignment table...we shall see. Now they'll just walk around fully buffed.. Which is ugly to me and may cause server lag. But that's the solution.
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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
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Rosencrantz
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:11 PM |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Uberuce wrote: Dark Immolation wrote: That doesn't fix that the person who scores a dev every other hit could still do so multiple times in a round, brain. It's the spamming in general that's the issue, not the dual-wielders.
A cooldown from the moment of the dev would be better, IMO. Say 5 rounds. Would mean "okay, you devved me with you kukri, 1 round effect. After I get up, 4 rounds before I can be effected by it again. You dev me with your greatsword, 3 round effect, after I get up, only 2 rounds before I can be affected again."
Yet another positive nod to heavy weapons devving. I'll see if I can get this effect to happen on the test server. 'Yet another' nod? Did I miss the first ones? Two-handers definitely need more incentive.
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Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
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Cpt.Devistation
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:11 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008
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Most of the problems people have with this are centered around PVP
Casting a gs spell and buffing for four minuts (An IG hour) is horendously lame.
Spamming GS spells and bigbies (which have now been nerfed thank goodness) was one of the lamest "tactical" moves mages made.
Devistating critical.... Hrm. What i love about this nerf is the poeple who build chars (Or indeed clans) based around this annoying (And quite rigged feat, i mean, everyone rolls that one!) Will have to think of new rp! yay. The DM's did a very nice job with these nerfs. Stop bashing them, these decisions take time, effort and observation. Ungratefull people who bash the dms simply because thier dev is now not an instant-kill (Allthough when you think about it, now when you dev beholder magesty he is knockdowned and cant cast those four greater ruins! *win*) and because they cant sit in GS for 30 minuts, or four, buffing to the point where your char icly is like *Taps foot waiting for the annoying sun elf to -finally- stop buffing* (Voronwer). These changes are nice.
Personally i hated that you would beat someone in PVP through hard work, then they chug a healpot, then you crit them four times in a row, anouther healpot (annoying). Or the people who are beated, raised, rest, then come back two minuts later fully buffed to start it again (For Wyjn's benifit). OR the person who sat in gs after lobbing a bigby at you. And the hips mages. A point i would like to make is how a mage can ICLY hips when they are lit up like a christmas tree. Its simply impossible, you cant hide in the shadows in a forest when people can see the light you eminate from bendir.
However, there must be a point where the nerfs stop, thers allways going to be a nerd who -somehow- with all the nerfs who will make a powerbuild. And then that is nefd. and then it happends again.
Thats my two cents, can pick at it all you want. Dms did a good job, Tumbs up for dms (Who go through more manure then anyone cares to admit)
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~Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
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Glyph
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:18 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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technically magical light does not interfer with hips (ie. flare, large explosions etc) continual light, light, and I guess if someone hit you with a sunburst somehow, are exeptions.
also lore wise no one should have been casting anything in GS...even mechanically, I thought it canceled the GS if you did anything other than, rez I think I forget exactly...or am I way off here? (haven't used GS much.)
ed: if you want a powerbuild, like the, powerbuild, 30 monk. you can't make anything more immune to everything than a 30 monk.
I can however think of something unpleasent buildwise that can occur with these new changes, but its still better than before, and i'm not saying a damned thing incase someone catches on and decides to anger the gods again >_>
I know one thing for sure, clerics are pissed. heals nerfed, rez nerfed, melee related stuff nerfed, thank christ I made a necro focused cleric rather than going the healing route >_> ? ? or not, I don't know anymore. please stop talking about nerfing everything, its depressing.
Last edited by Glyph on Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:24 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Silent2001
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdomshire
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Post could have done without the names, Cpt...
_________________  <3 MarynWe are going to die and that makes us the lucky ones.
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Cpt.Devistation
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
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Silent2001 wrote: Post could have done without the names, Cpt... Probibly. I was voicing some defence/bashing of people complaining. Poor dms work hard then get bashed, its sad.
_________________
~Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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I don't think any of my posts were bashing the DMs. While I don't care that you called out my character specifically for it, you saying that you brought me up simply because I was voicing my concerns about the change is wrong and bogus.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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You know what the hilarious thing is, the person who advocated the power, favour and tensers changes, plays mostly clerics and mages. . .but I'm not going to start a fight with myself over it. 
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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erroch
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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Dwagin wrote: Mord AoE dispell uses the following check:
Dispeller's caster level + dispeller's ability modifier + bonus vs. 2 * (creator's ability modifier) + 20 + d100
100 bonus for Mordekainen's disjunction
So, 17 + (Int for wizards, cha for others, so if is cha.. UMD using can be as high as 10-15.) + 100 vs 2 * (Say is another cleric with a 15 mod) + 20 + d100.
17 + 15 + 100 vs 30+ 20 + 1d100
132 vs 1d100 + 50 = favorable dispelling in a lot of cases. I believe this is supposed to be for dispelling persistant area of effect spells (tentacles, darkness, etc) not the spells on individual targets within the area of effect. I'll rip apart the script later today to make sure on this though. _________________ 
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Rosencrantz
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 12:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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MoshingChris wrote: You know what the hilarious thing is, the person who advocated the power, favour and tensers changes, plays mostly clerics and mages. . .but I'm not going to start a fight with myself over it. *Gasp!* MasochisticChris.
_________________
Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
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erroch
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 13:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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Cpt.Devistation wrote: Most of the problems people have with this are centered around PVP
Casting a gs spell and buffing for four minuts (An IG hour) is horendously lame.
Spamming GS spells and bigbies (which have now been nerfed thank goodness) was one of the lamest "tactical" moves mages made. I think one of the other issues with GS were people using it as a super-invisibility (there were a few times an entire server got set to hostile by some folks to make use of this), and using its excessive duration to avoid quite a bit of content for boss farming. As a wizard, I personally dig the shorter duration. I just wish I could cast in the four rounds I have for when caught flat footed. The change just means I'm going to spend a lot more time casting timestop when I get jumped while not fully buffed, and more wandering aroud looking like a walking disco ball. Meh. The bigbies change only irks me because it's yet another reason everyone has to stack fort save, and it now deals non-insignifigant lethal damage. (The latter is a RP based irk, and we're dealing with it.) I'd have loved it if it was a reflex save to get out of the way -then- a bull rush check if it connects to give some reason to stack a save other then fort. And maybe tie the STR bonus to caster level to nerf the scrolls a bit. (Cap out at the current str bonus check at 30 caster levels, scale back from there appropriately.) All in all, the changes are what they are, and most of us are dealing with them. Hell, this is the first server I've played on where GS was even allowed at all and we as hybrid clerics and pure wizards did smashingly well in pvp on there. _________________
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 13:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Rosencrantz wrote: MoshingChris wrote: You know what the hilarious thing is, the person who advocated the power, favour and tensers changes, plays mostly clerics and mages. . .but I'm not going to start a fight with myself over it. *Gasp!* MasochisticChris. Yarp.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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oshizo2
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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opinion/question: i like the changes mostly. i think gs is a tad to short. my biggest thing though is whats the deal with clerics not being able to ressurect someone for 2-5 minuites i mean that is thier job is i not? i have seen drahgon ask this multiple times could someone speak on this. i mean if you can't do the scroll w/o also doing the spells then i understand but seems like a cleric should be able to do the ressurecting thing much better than a scroll, ie no duration penalty.
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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Roppi
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2010
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Nice changes, HiPS and Timestop will be coming soon?
Only one thing however, the fixing of bigby's forceful is terrible.
You(balancers/DMs) just bumped Dexers up the ladder and removed yet another reason to go STR.
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Glyph
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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only thing wrong with time stop is that it can be stacked. 9 seconds, with the not the entire server fix is pleanty. the only viable alternate fix that comes to mind for me would be a 'stop' spell, like slow but better. and thats what petrify is for. ed: or prevent stacked time stop casting via a short gap, like with taunt I guess, to prevent instant re-casting. but not entirely ruling out a second cast if you live that long.
I totally agree that clerics should not have the cooldowns for rez. heal is debatable because of spamming heal pots.
ed: not to mention it already costs spell components that MUST be in your inventory, non optional, other spells have components too but not so strictly mechanically.
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ShadowSoul89
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Location: Somewhere...
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oshizo2 wrote: opinion/question: i like the changes mostly. i think gs is a tad to short. my biggest thing though is whats the deal with clerics not being able to ressurect someone for 2-5 minuites i mean that is thier job is i not? i have seen drahgon ask this multiple times could someone speak on this. i mean if you can't do the scroll w/o also doing the spells then i understand but seems like a cleric should be able to do the ressurecting thing much better than a scroll, ie no duration penalty. I'm no expert, but I shall respond with the PnP version of Resurrection and Raise Dead. Quote: Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7
[u]Casting Time: 10 minutes[/u]
Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute As you can see, it should take one minute to successfully cast a Raise Dead. In a pvp or pvm situation, if someone dies, you probably won't have that one minute to concentrate on raising said person while the battle continues. If the battle takes a long time before it finishes? Congratulations, the timer is most likely almost done ticking and you have time to tend to the wounded and raise the dead. As for Resurrection, since it heals much more damage, it takes more time. Be thankful that the timer isn't /longer/ or that Resurrection itself has a enforced casting timer to where you have to stand there defenceless for several minutes while concentrating on the spell. (Although this would be kinda cool) Anyways, the extra time allows for rp on the casting of the spells while focusing on the 'after battle' scene. Anything can happen then. I actually kind of like this, because now it kinda forces me to put a little rp flavor into some clerical duties.
_________________
Retired
Last edited by ShadowSoul89 on Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:33 PM, edited 3 times in total.
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hendrack
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Re: Cleric/GS outrage. My caster clerics need two buffs to unleash hell in PvP: max WIS and TS. Not a prob if he gets hit by a Mord either. For PvM they can buff calmly in a safe place. Pick your fights or pre-buff. Too bad if you have low cleric CLs and your buffs go away too fast, though.
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Valve
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
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erroch wrote: The change just means I'm going to spend a lot more time casting timestop when I get jumped while not fully buffed.
That's my plan. Yup..
_________________
Plays: Mina Ashby, Meche, and Winter Addams
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Rosencrantz
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Roppi wrote: Nice changes, HiPS and Timestop will be coming soon?
Sure if you want to server to have very few mages. After Bigby and GS are made practically useless (okay, they have use.. 1. for escaping 2. Not really useful.. Everyone and their mother has fort gear) the TS/IGMS spam is the only real, viable option for mages in PvP now. Other than 'Support'.. Meaning buffing meleers, ect. Weaken TS and... Well. I certainly would never play a mage again.
_________________
Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
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hendrack
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Its funny so many players voice their outrage over being able to win in PvP so much. Do you play your clerics, wiz and sorcs for role playing's sake or for being able to stomp everything? Power is not about how much you can kill alone but how many follow you, especially for clerics and their supposed followers.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Conflict is an enormous part in amias RP.
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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hendrack
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Then you have to rethink how you play out your conflicts.
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Rosencrantz
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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As to that Hen, read above.. Or for your convienence below. That's my opinion on the matter. RP and PvP are very interwined in Amia. Rosencrantz wrote:
You can still be a Big Bad Blackguard with a 'Big Bad' build and be an excellent RPer. (See: Darthion)
In fact, taking Darthion. Do you think his impact on Amia would have ended up the same if he only cared minorly for his character's build -as well- as his RP?
But let's ditch the villain example for more variation. Let's say I have a.. Helmite! And I see some villain blatantly going against the laws of the region/municipality/country/whatever.. My Helmite is going to engadge him and it may go to PvP. The problem is, I find myself on my PC's side. I want him to win. Which may the wrong way to see it and maybe being more dettached from the fate of your character may produce better RP (And I'm definately not saying you should throw a fit if you lose like most do. I think if you lose, you should go with it and see where it goes!), but I find being dettached fully like that to limit.. well.. how -attached- I can get to them... If that makes sense.. I want my Helmite to have a pretty tight build so that he doesn't lose every fight. Mind, I don't want or expect him to win every one either. But certainly I want him to win as many as he can. Certainly there's nothing wrong with prefering the RP of your character to go one way rather than the other most of the time and to try to put in place the mechanical foundation to steer it towards that direction. Certaintly I would get more and more dettached from my Helmite if I build him half as well as I could and he loses almost every fight he goes into in the name of Law.
_________________
Main: Riz'rae Faerfyn
Others: Aelron Rilynrae, Aeronor Tel'vyr
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762
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 14:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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hendrack wrote: Its funny so many players voice their outrage over being able to win in PvP so much. Do you play your clerics, wiz and sorcs for role playing's sake or for being able to stomp everything? Power is not about how much you can kill alone but how many follow you, especially for clerics and their supposed followers. *facepalm*
_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Glyph
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 15:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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darthion could solo justice, the fact that he could rp while in combat just made it ever so much more epic xD
also I would define winning as surviving on amia, for example pvp in the forest, you sure as heck better be on your toes even if -you- arn't in pvp, look out for that hellball >_> you can't win em all.
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hendrack
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Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 15:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Pretty irrelevant to the balance changes Rosencrantz. Removing win-buttons you can't use anymore now doesn't mean your build is any better or worse. Those changes even the field.
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