Then you're just not scary enough.

And totally easy to undo, if its shown to be too much.

The fear of casters isn't gone completely; that would just be ludicrous to assert. But slight horror has certainly turned into mild caution for anyone with a handful of the above listed items, IMO.

After all.. that's what we are looking for.. BALANCE.. not Rock-Scissors-Paper sort of thing.

I. Want. The. Nukes. To. Hurt.

An empowered delayed blast is a level 9 slot. It should be able to decimate an entire spawn with one spell. ..That and probably fry your familiar, and your summon, and possibly yourself in the process, but .. Hey! Learn to aim.

Puff saved Cordor by climbing in a Golem's ass. <.< All fear the ass goblin.

We? We're not balancing it; They are.

Mages with self-destructive streak, maybe.
Or 70 AC and 80 discipline and 44 fort
^.^


Edit:

By all means if you wanna suggest a nerf to normal evasion... by all means! I agree.

After all.. that's what we are looking for.. BALANCE.. not Rock-Scissors-Paper sort of thing.

Huh? Stone-paper-scissors is the most perfectly balanced game possible.

Because there's none to make. Deal w/ it. *smugface*

But everything is not equal to everything else.

Bah.. sometimes I have the feeling I'm the only one who paied attention to that modification and, I'm the only one who plays a Blackguard here.

Divine Favour
Does 1 + 1/damage/ab every 5 levels

Something I was hesitant to suggest before this, but now it may actually be needed is a one-shot, partial-counter to Mords via the Spell Mantle series.

My thought was this: Dispels and Mordenkainen's become susceptible to Spell Mantle with the caveat of having a double spell level value. In other words, Mordenkainen's would be blocked by Spell Mantle, but it would have a Spell Level of "18" for calculation.

In that respect, it would give one "freebie" against Mords in most cases, but after that, you're on your own. It's not like the SOB 29melee/1rogue isn't going to have multiple scrolls to throw at your ass anyway.

*shrug* It's just a thought, I am not certain how it would actually play out yet. Interested to see comments.

Hate to burst everyone's bubble but we are playing paper scissors rock. It is the nature of pvp/pvm in both DnD/NWN. Even with the "balance" tweaks, all that will happen will be spellcasters will become thriftier, fighters will likely take up much larger weapons, and sneaks will need to consider fading for longer periods of time thanks to heal potions.

There's been a lot of discussion regarding the various feats and spells which would require balancing. Some, have been easier to agree on than others, yet I believe, despite our (sometimes exaggerated) differences of opinions, that final conclusions can be made.

As such, I'm going to write together what I would perceive as a good summary of what could very well be good and appropriate final suggestions for changes to actually be made.

I know that I can be an arrogant ass as I share my opinion, and that I often skip steps in the explanation process. Yet hopefully, I'll be able to communicate the intentions and reasons behind the suggestions more thoroughly in this post.


Index
1. Bigby's Forceful
2. Time Stop
3. GS
4. Dev Crit
5. HiPS
6. Heal
7. Raise dead
8. Scrolls & Potions




1. Bigby's Forceful

Change:



Why?

As we all know, Bigby's Forceful is an instant win button from a distance against multiple opponents, regardless of the opponents strength.

The spell currently works just as effectively through the use of a scroll as with a mage casting it.

The change makes strength a proper counter to the spell, where as with a +14 str mod, you'll have a 5% chance of being knocked down.

Dex'ers who prepare for a Bigby, by Str buffs or equipment, are also given an increased chance of resisting the spell.

The spell remains effective against mages, Dex'ers and Cha-based characters.

The duration is intended to increase the difference between the spell being cast from a scroll compared to a mage. The duration has also been shortened to seize the spell from being a guaranteed win against multiple (5+) opponents.

The Evocation focuses were included to hopefully add the option of variety amongst the mage's chosen spell focuses. With the intention to draw away some of the intention from the standard Necro + Conjuration route.



2. Time Stop

Change:



Why?

The idea is to keep the spell useful. We've tried to find alternative functions of the spell, yet in the end... it's still Time Stop.

The issue with the spell was the complete lack of counters to it. Even with the 9 round duration, a mage can chain the castings and throw in damaging / disabling spells into the mix, resulting in an ultimate win-win.

The save allows people to actually resist and counter the spell. Same with mindblanks and SR.

Keep in mind, that Time Stop effects the entire area. Not a particular radius. As such, it can effect an almost unlimited amount of opponents present.

Why use a different CL?

Will Save is usually the lowest saves on any non-cleric non-mage character. It's not unusual, at all, to see level 30 characters with 9 will. These will obviously be lost casualties, regardless, have they not managed to drink their mindblank. But a will save DC of anything greater than 30 could result in keeping the spell overpowered (in particular with the changes coming to the BG and Paladin saves).

The transmutation focus would also contribute to the hopes of mage variety.

Important: The changes to heal (further down) is essential for this fix to be possible.



3. GS

Change:



Why?

The big one of controversy.

These two changes fix the most obvious "abuses" of the spell, however.

The shortened duration serves to remove the running in GS through 8 areas in a row, ignoring all the monsters. It also cuts down on the very same runs which currently occur between epic bosses.

More importantly, it disables those who cast GS at the start of an RP encounter, should the encounter evolve into PvP, in which case they would already be GS and out of harms way as soon as the hostiles are set.

Lastly, the shortened duration also removes the stalemates which tend to occur between mages and clerics when they fight each other. Where they basically end up waiting each other out in GS.

The shortened duration puts pressure on clerics and mages during their buff sequence.

A level 30 cleric, using an extended GS, gets a total of 1½ minute to cast 20+ buffs.

Without haste, that means the duration will end before they're done buffing. (I foresee a cleric disaster, but we'll see)

Jas- made strong arguments against the use of GS as a form of pseudo-HiPS.

GS has limited castings (thanks to the scroll fixes: further down), and as such, is hard to really be employed as a proper pseudo-HiPS.

Regardless. The cooldown disables mages and clerics from using the spell to jump in and out of GS during combat, in order to get flat-footed attacks and surprise-offensive castings.

Not being able to cast spells on others while in GS disables those who would hide in GS while mass-healing or healing others in PvP. Including those who casts raises or resurrections while in GS.

With both reality potions and mordenkainen scrolls quite readily available in the module, GS is already easily countered (as has now been proven, during the extensive Banite PvP trainings >.<).



4. Dev Crit

Change:



Why?

I basically went with Mosh's suggestion here, with the slight alteration of adding + 2 to the base weapon damage dice, in order to overall increase the damage output slightly, and make the difference between the weapons somewhat less imposing.

This is a good way of incorporating weapon sizes and base damage into the Dev Crit equation.

The damage is significantly greater on two-handers and the big weapons (note: Katana and Bastard Sword might become even more popular), while the smaller weapons would deal less damage.

I also like it, because the Scythe would actually deal, on average, less Dev Crit damage than the great axe.

The removal of the instant death effect on a failed save allows a window of potential survival against the smaller weapons (unless you have Dwarven Defender or Barbarian HP, in which case you could even survive a Dev Crit from a Great Axe).

More so, it removes the Natural 1 on Epic Bosses, which has caused despair amongst sad, witnessing DMs.

Important: The changes to heal (further down) is essential for this fix to be possible.




5. HiPS

Change:



Why?

I don't know if this even possible. Even with the HAK.

But regardless. If it is mechanically possible, it should happen. HiPS is a broken feat, and a HiPS-spammer can be ridiculously difficult to kill, or even impossible, for someone who doesn't know the ins and outs of PvP.

It is an (un?)official that you're not suppose to HiPS within those 6 seconds regardless, as... I presume, the feature isn't a free action in PnP.

But, alas, dunno if it can be done, at all.



6. Heal

Change:



Why?

The change to heal is -essential- due to both the Time Stop, Dev Crit and to some extent Bigby changes.

Why is that?

Because otherwise, anyone with 600+ HP could practically become immortal (with the exception of Implosion natural 1's >.<).

All you'd have to do, is drink those heal pots.

I originally suggested a 10 round cooldown. But then decided it was a bit long, practically making it the equivalent of being able to drink no heal potions at all (PvP rarely lasts longer than 10 rounds).

5 rounds seemed too short. Since 5 rounds is barely enough for a dex'er, usually, to deal out enough damage in order to kill someone.

7 rounds came to be the middle ground.

Mages have often complained that it is close to impossible to use AoE damaging spells in order to kill someone (heal pot drinking), and that Time Stop was the only thing that made it possible.

Since Time Stop gets fixed, this needs to get fixed as well. And mages will be able to actually make use of those Fireballs against low reflex save clerics, fighters and melee PMs.

The heal cooldown also serves to make PMs less untouchable in melee, as well (where as it currently stands, the only way for a meleer to truly defeat a PM with 300+ HP, is to spam KD and hope for the best, or use a Bigby Scroll. Bigby, which is also getting nerfed).



7. Raise Dead (and Resurrection)

Change:



Why?

This is entirely to counter the raise dead trains. Which has to be one of, if the not -the- most, annoying things you can ever encounter in PvP.

Some would argue that using raise dead scrolls in PvP is part of tactics, and that by having huge numbers, you... somehow can win the battle, by having an extra guy that uses 30 raise dead scrolls to try and raise his fallen comrades.

As it usually stands, the notion of a removed head when using a raise dead scroll, is often ignored. Which makes it, virtually impossible to counter or prevent someone who sits in GS or HiPS, and spams raise dead scrolls.

To have the previously dead ones immediately jump up, drink a heal potion, and get right back to the fighting.

The PnP spell has a 1 minute casting period regardless (and Resurrection has a 10 minute period, unless I am mistaken).

This change isn't essential to balance.

But it would improve the PvP scene five hundred times over.



1. Scrolls & Potions

Change:



Why?

Time Stop scrolls

A skilled PvP'er, playing a WM or Barbarian, can do what mages do with Time Stop... yet even better.

Provided they have the scrolls.

With the components removed, this could become an even greater problem.

GS scrolls

GS-scrolls can't be interrupted by taking damage. They can't be counter-spelled, and you can have an infinite amount of them, if you just take the time to get them.

These are completely unnecessary extentions to what is suppose to be a mage and clerics limited spellbook, and it also gives -everyone- infinite access to GS, provided they have UMD.

True Strike potions

Level 1 spell, takes ½ round to drink, effectively gives +15 to any WM, Barbarian, Paladin, Blackguard, Arcane Archer or even HiPS'er.

It's the ultimate overpowered ganking feature in PvP. Drink a potion, go for the surprise IKD with 65+ AB.

Considering that pretty much every single cleric/bard/paladin AB buff is already available as either potions, scrolls or item castings in the game, True Strike potions comes off as even worse.

It's a "must have", for any meleer. Which, by itself, gives an indication of how inappropriate it is.

Remove, remove, remove >.<


Summary


All of these changes co-relate to each other.

It's hard to do one, without doing the others. For it would cause imbalances.

Mages would suddenly become 10% of their former power, if the heals were kept in their current state, while fixing Bigby + Time Stop + GS.

Same goes for Str-meleers and their Dev Crit, should that be changed, and heal kept as it is.

The Dev Crit changes also go hand-by-hand with a (hopefully possible) HiPS fix.

Those who have HiPS, usually have low Fortitude (even though they can raise, like everyone else >.<), and as such, would suddenly be far more likely to suffer the instant death of doom.



Regardless.

I hope this post would serve a purpose, and all of these suggestions have come out of the balance discussions we've had. I also hope that my attitude in writing all of this, wasn't offensive or arrogant, for that was not my intention if so.

If we're lucky, they're good enough to finally have the changes be put into effect (so that we can get rid of the "Nerf GS/Bigby/Dev Crit/HiPS"-threads that show up every third week in Improving Amia).


Anyhow.... flame away!

Amia 3.12 (The big balance thingy)

Bigby's Forceful Hand
Deals 1d6/CL (Max 10d6) Bludgeoning
Fortitude Save (Evocation) vs Knockdown & Half Damage. Duration = CL/5 Rounds
SR does not apply.

Greater Sanctuary
Apply Temporary HP equal to CL*5. Apply Greater Sanctuary Effect. Apply Spell Failure 100%. All effects are Linked.
Duration - CL/6 Rounds.
Also blocks spells from items when effect is active.

Heal
Change applies only to Potion or Scroll cast Heal.

Add scaled Cooldown-
% Healed = Rounds since last heal * 10. (1 round = 10%. 5 rounds = 50%. 10+ rounds = 100%)

Raise Dead & Ressurection
Add Cooldown based on death type. If killed by PVM - 2 minutes. If killed by PvP - 5 minutes. Use existing checks used by the PvP system.

Divine Favour
Does 1 + 1/damage/ab every 5 levels

Divine Power
Adds AB as normal
Removed the extra Attack

Tenser's Transformation
Cap AB to +10 to represent 1 BAB classes.
Change to 1d4/1d4/1d4 Con/Str/dex.
Add +10 temporary discipline
Removed the +5 Fort Save.
Removed the +4 Natural AC Bonus.
Removed the extra attacks if you remove them from Cleric.
Also blocks spells from items when effect is active.


Devastating Critical Hit

If Devcrit is rolled and failed, it applies knockdown for [X] rounds, and Blind, Silenced and Deafened for [X] turns.

[X] would be:

1 for a onehanded weapon of 18-20 base crit range, ie our friends the rapier, kukri and scimitar.
2 for twohanded weapon of 18-20 base crit, ie a rapier or scimmy used by a hin/gnome/goblin/kolbold
2 for a onehanded weapon of 19-20 base crit.
3 for a onehanded weapon of 20 base crit.
3 for a twohanded weapon of 19-20 base crit.
4 for a twohanded weapon of 20 base crit.


Goes in next reset if it doesnt work as intended I will revert to previous version.

Coming from someone playing both a full wizard and a cleric hybrid, I don't really see the need. It would effectively be a further nerf to pure clerics without UMD since they can't use a mantle scrolls but 95% of the other characters out there (which have wiz, sorc, or umd) will be making use of the scrolls.

I'll answer the question, because I noticed the Divine Favor right off the bat IG.

Currently, Divine Favor has one bug. Instead of what Terra inteded, the spell adds one less ab/damage point then it should.

Currently, it is like so:

(lvl 16 Blackguard (Or any caster level) = +3 ab, +3 dmg.) once it's looked at, it'll be (lvl 16 CL = +4, +4). It /should/ cap at lvl 20 to be (+5,+5). Honestly kind of makes sense, having had the +5,+5 at lvl 15 opened up quick and easy powerbuilds.

It's not a nerf to clerics considering they can, and usually do, dump rogue with the rest of the classes.

I just find it silly that someone with no understanding of spells whatsoever can have a handful of paper than can efficiently reduce a standing mage to a lv 10 fighter in cloth armor with little to no chance to counter except to be just as cheap back.

3. GS

Change:



Why?

The big one of controversy.

These two changes fix the most obvious "abuses" of the spell, however.

The shortened duration serves to remove the running in GS through 8 areas in a row, ignoring all the monsters. It also cuts down on the very same runs which currently occur between epic bosses.

More importantly, it disables those who cast GS at the start of an RP encounter, should the encounter evolve into PvP, in which case they would already be GS and out of harms way as soon as the hostiles are set.

Lastly, the shortened duration also removes the stalemates which tend to occur between mages and clerics when they fight each other. Where they basically end up waiting each other out in GS.

The shortened duration puts pressure on clerics and mages during their buff sequence.

A level 30 cleric, using an extended GS, gets a total of 1½ minute to cast 20+ buffs.

Without haste, that means the duration will end before they're done buffing. (I foresee a cleric disaster, but we'll see)

Jas- made strong arguments against the use of GS as a form of pseudo-HiPS.

GS has limited castings (thanks to the scroll fixes: further down), and as such, is hard to really be employed as a proper pseudo-HiPS.

Regardless. The cooldown disables mages and clerics from using the spell to jump in and out of GS during combat, in order to get flat-footed attacks and surprise-offensive castings.

Not being able to cast spells on others while in GS disables those who would hide in GS while mass-healing or healing others in PvP. Including those who casts raises or resurrections while in GS.

With both reality potions and mordenkainen scrolls quite readily available in the module, GS is already easily countered (as has now been proven, during the extensive Banite PvP trainings >.<).

Eh... That just sounds like a problem in the long run. Besides, if you play a spell caster and don't focus on making your spells hard to dispell, you deserve to have them stripped silly off your glowing body.

Mages are meant to be tactical... not one-trick ponies. For instance, if someone has a focus in Fort Gear, their reflex and will are usually shot to hell. Same is possible with the other two. Mindblank? Dispel, dominate or whatever you feel like being evil with. Sunburst has /always/ been good as an evocation choice. You get hit by that, and often you do, you're blinded and a target for more spells.

Mages also make better support characters than anything. If you have one at your back, the odds are in your favor. I played a mage for the longest time. She had 20-30 ac at the max, and she did a fairly good job in battle. Evoc and Conjuration focus.

As they should be... But that's just my opinion.

And as I said, they're tactical classes. You can't beat all their spells!

Terra, I love you. Thank you guys for taking some of that stuff into consideration.

17+35=52

8+9=17

But let's ditch the villain example for more variation. Let's say I have a.. Helmite! And I see some villain blatantly going against the laws of the region/municipality/country/whatever.. My Helmite is going to engadge him and it may go to PvP. The problem is, I find myself on my PC's side. I want him to win. Which may the wrong way to see it and maybe being more dettached from the fate of your character may produce better RP (And I'm definately not saying you should throw a fit if you lose like most do. I think if you lose, you should go with it and see where it goes!), but I find being dettached fully like that to limit.. well.. how -attached- I can get to them... If that makes sense.. I want my Helmite to have a pretty tight build so that he doesn't lose every fight. Mind, I don't want or expect him to win every one either. But certainly I want him to win as many as he can. Certainly there's nothing wrong with prefering the RP of your character to go one way rather than the other most of the time and to try to put in place the mechanical foundatioCertaintly I would get more and more dettached from my Hn to steer it towards that direction. elmite if I build him half as well as I could and he loses almost every fight he goes into in the name of Law.

IMHO, not liking the changes is fine. I mean, no one -likes- their characters getting weaker. But raging and complaining over it is neither productive nor effective. If anything it serves to make it worse, simply because of the age-old effect of group mentality, and the fact that one person raging will inevitably make someone else more likely to rage; at least in online communities. The perception of support for a 'cause' often makes that cause more justified, somehow.

Divine favor:
I don't think it necessary. The Divine power nerf is enough if we intend to nerf cleric. The change hurts BGs. It is a slight change, but not necessary. Also there are Divine favor scrolls(CL 5) on sale which used to be +1 att/dmg, now +2.

Tenser's:
As others said, not being able to drink potions makes it a death trap.

Greater sanctuary:
Should have a way to disable the sanctuary state other than attacking with your staff.

Others are good.

The favor change is a complete fix for Paladins, Blackguards and Clerics. I wanted further (6 or 7 CL) you can thank tormak for it not going further. I play all three of those classes predominantly. I know exactly how good they are. Blackguard never needed favor, but it got it, sure you don't get +5 unless you go pure, but you do get one turn of +4 AB once a day to lay the smacketh down with.

And seriously, scrolls of Divine Favor +2 instead of +1 ? I can't see the reason for that at all. That was supposed to be a gift or aid from Gods. Not something you can buy at the corner.