AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

The Lexicon thread got me to wondering...

This world exists in what is essentially a pre-renaissance magic culture, very different from our own. We had, essentially, one major religion that caused cultural and technological advancement to cease for a time. Amia has a pantheon of deities with different desires and needs, thus making the idea of a technological and cultural lockdown very difficult, if not impossible.

Amia, and even Faerun, being a magic culture, makes me wonder if this culture might not advance in ways different that our society, given that magic is fairly commonplace. Whereas our culture advanced technologically, with magic there doesn't seem to be the need for such. Why invent a machine to do something when you could invent a magic device that does it.

Where and how might Amian society progress, given this?

Thoughts?

I would think that afterwards everyone would become a mage of sorts, at least partially. everything would be added magic in it. Stoves would be heated magically, jetpacks would've been invented ages ago(although ability just cast fly spell would make it pretty pointless) I bet most people would find it a fun hobby of creating things that work -without- magic.
I can imagine that instead of miniguns, we would use magic missile repeaters or something like that...

Once upon a time there was such a place. It came crashing down when the leader tried to become a god.

*Removed as post somehow duped*

I played a PW where magic was recognized as a facilitator. Plumbing, air conditioning, all of the mundane aspects of daily life, were handled magically. This wasn't set down in the rules as "this is how this world is", it just ended up that way. Some players even rp'ed characterts wearing portable magical time-pieces.

It was a world developing through the combination of mundane and magic, and even the "peasants" were starting to live easier lives through the use of magic.

Faerûn is actually past its days of glory when it comes to magic. The elven empires with their city-wide mythals, Netherese mythallars that (IIRC) gave everyone minor magical power and the portal mastery of the Imaskari are all gone. Magic can't be mass produced due to the toll it takes on a highly trained individual. Even wands take time, money and your health to make; you'd have to adventure constantly so as not to delevel, if you were into mass magic crafting.

The same thing might have been said about our glory days when it came to technology. Prior to the dark ages and the burning of the library at Alexandria (several burnings, actually), there were actually practical machines being made, which are occasionally being found in archaeological digs. I am of the thought that this technology was starting to come before our culture was ready for it. I think the same could be said of Faerun's glory days: The culture wasn't mature enough, it lost control of it's power and came toppling down. This does not mean that those scholars who study ancient cultures cannot see the mistakes that were made and promote advancement, with an eye out to keep the culture from treading down the same destructive path.

From this standpoint, I can see more glory days ahead for Faerun.

so you are basically implying that amia is getting so over the top that magic will be everywhere and usable by everyone? Which would be really ridiculous and degrade all magic classes? and you are beginning to worry about this?

There is a distinct difference between Faerun's magical heyday, and the present day. Namely, that Mystra limits the upper-levels of magic, to prevent magic such as Karsus' Avatar and so forth. So, the mystical golden age of the past will likely outshine any renaissance in the current.

That said, Amia has already had something of an evolution in the magical sense. Namely: ley-lines and portal wands. Being available to the masses of adventuring folk and their ilk has already revolutionized society quite a bit, and those pesty mages of the Monolith just may be doing more work to that end. Not saying.

Nivo wrote:

There is a distinct difference between Faerun's magical heyday, and the present day. Namely, that Mystra limits the upper-levels of magic, to prevent magic such as Karsus' Avatar and so forth. So, the mystical golden age of the past will likely outshine any renaissance in the current.

That said, Amia has already had something of an evolution in the magical sense. Namely: ley-lines and portal wands. Being available to the masses of adventuring folk and their ilk has already revolutionized society quite a bit, and those pesty mages of the Monolith just may be doing more work to that end. Not saying.

do you have the spell description of that karsus avatar? I'd like to see.

It was the ritual that Karsus used to wrest control of the Weave from Mystryl. Basically, it allowed the caster to assume a god's powers. Karsus' notes were snatched up by Mystra and were never, ever, seen again.

I approve of this thread.

Janna wrote:

Amia, and even Faerun, being a magic culture, makes me wonder if this culture might not advance in ways different that our society, given that magic is fairly commonplace. Whereas our culture advanced technologically, with magic there doesn't seem to be the need for such. Why invent a machine to do something when you could invent a magic device that does it.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

- Arthur C. Clarke

Janna wrote:

This world exists in what is essentially a pre-renaissance magic culture, very different from our own. We had, essentially, one major religion that caused cultural and technological advancement to cease for a time. Amia has a pantheon of deities with different desires and needs, thus making the idea of a technological and cultural lockdown very difficult, if not impossible.

Or, alternatively, the competition itself advances cultural and technological advancement, much like our own national conflicts catapulted us into mechanized warfare before we were really ready.

From what I have been seeing, this post appears to be an attempt at finding where we are comparatively in culture. However, Faerun doesn't really equate well into our real life chronology of Eras and Epochs. It borrows multiple aspects. For example: Dwarven cities could be equated to either modern bunkers or to the ancient city of Petra. Can you be a bit more specific as to what it your post is about or what parts of the setting you are tying to what real life eras?

I also think that the competition between the technological, and the mystical, is something that is rather interesting. Between solid, rational science and technology and the esoteric, mind bending incantations of wizards in their far off towers. As far as society is concerned, both can produce the same results with different techniques. For instance, farming aqueducts vs. Change Weather. Surgery vs. Heal. Siege weaponry vs. most evocation magic. Improvements in roads and bridges vs. teleportaion magic.

Still, magic tends to be less wide-spread, but more dramatic in its effects. Technology less-dramatic, but more wide-spread. Generally.

As for what happens when the two meet? Well, the gnomish testing grounds comes to mind.

DustSpray101 wrote:

From what I have been seeing, this post appears to be an attempt at finding where we are comparatively in culture. However, Faerun doesn't really equate well into our real life chronology of Eras and Epochs. It borrows multiple aspects. For example: Dwarven cities could be equated to either modern bunkers or to the ancient city of Petra. Can you be a bit more specific as to what it your post is about or what parts of the setting you are tying to what real life eras?

The object of this post is to expand thinking into Amian culture, and I think that thought in this direction can inspire server-wide RP, as well as personal and intrapersonal RP. Food for thought, basically.

As far as tying into our culture... eh... not so much. I merely use examples from our culture to make small points in the discussion.

Magic has been in a decline on Faerun ever since two sets of legendary scrolls were created in Oreme.

Everything that has been done with magic since that is tiny in comparison, really.

Nivo wrote:

I also think that the competition between the technological, and the mystical, is something that is rather interesting. Between solid, rational science and technology and the esoteric, mind bending incantations of wizards in their far off towers.

Lantan has an army of airships and is working on mechanical portals, IIRC.

A "modern" Faerun, perhaps thousands of years in its own future would be a very odd sight indeed. And I suspect there would be a huge catastrophic clash between mortals and gods and magic users when technology reliably caught up, or even surpassed, the other two.

Oh! Seems I misunderstood the topic then.

It almost sounds like the OP describes Eberron, machine (technology/science) and magic co-existing.

Kudark wrote:

It almost sounds like the OP describes Eberron, machine (technology/science) and magic co-existing.

I started to think the same.

Well, Eberron is slightly different from what I was thinking. In Eberron magic and technology go hand in hand(ex. Magic Railroads) and the Gods aren't as up in your face as they are in FR. In fact, people who worship Ideals still receive spells as well, so the whole "are there gods" and "how do they exist" thing is a lot blurrier there.

What I'm talking about is the hell that will rise in a place like Faerun if technology ever picks up speed.(Unlikely because of Gond and Oghma having a monopoly on all invenntion). But if it ever did become as powerful as magic and the Gods, it would just be unreal. What happens when the humanoids say "Nah, we don't feel like worshiping the Gods. We've figured out how to live forever and even bring ourselves back from death without Gods or Magic." It would be a battle for the Gods fighting to stay relative in the lives of creatures who are beginning to learn to stand on their own.

*Thinks up a doomsday setting for PnP*

Nivo wrote:

It was the ritual that Karsus used to wrest control of the Weave from Mystryl. Basically, it allowed the caster to assume a god's powers. Karsus' notes were snatched up by Mystra and were never, ever, seen again.

Don't forget the storytelling element!

As the power was funneling away, at the last moment when she retained a spark of divinity she killed herself, and caused the spell to fail. Reincarnating thereafter. However for the briefest of moments All magic ceased. Constructs. Liches, Floating cities.. Crash. Boom. Dead. Karsus transformed into a giant boulder of blood-red oozing rock. While he with his hubris tried to make Netheril the greatest of human empires, his very folly, his act, is what brought about the collapse and its fall. Quite literally in every way.

To be honest, I would have liked these changes to have had some IG event accompanying them, something like Cordor's fall, or the like.

You would have to take into account whether magic was even weakened at all. Chances are if magic became stronger than you would have a lot less technological advancement, and it be'd replaced with magical faculties.

If magic became severely weakened then technology would simply take it's place by proxy.

In a high magic setting where magic would not weaken and become a prevailing factor, you'd find actually that all the same functions in a technological setting would be present, ie transportation and communication, the two most social aspects of society.

Hence, you would have magical flying ships instead of public busses, Magical mirrors instead of television. Maybe little compact crystal balls instead of cell phones...but these things would exist, because it boils down to communication and transportation in order to connect one spot in the world to another.

Sadly enough, Tuomas is a character who .. well, I'm curious to see if by the time he's said and done he'll have contributed anything to the overall Amian culture. (outside of a resurgance of plushdolls)

Last edited by Glyph on Wed, Oct 27 2010, 18:37 PM, edited 1 time in total.

atlantis comes to mind. the one major difference being gods and such.

faerun is like what would happen if the crusades never occured, and if all the storys you ever heard about vampires and witches we're true. weather they we're or not is up for debate but theres some strange stuff in our world too if you got the eyes for it, and patience to sift through the bs money grabs, for example probably every bigfoot sighting ever.

so that said, faerun is a polytheistic setting, meaning there are more than one god, there isn't nessicarrily a main god, AO is looked at like one but, primordials, and things prior to them, confuse the matter. as for culture, gnomes seam to be on the brink of firearms even in amia's specific setting, and while explosives don't exist per se there are some magic varients equivilent to dynamite, nearly.

there is however the inherent mass change problem, the time of troubles sort of explains that one better. at a gods whim toril can be turned upside down, new planes could come into existance, old ones could fade. garyx could arrive tomorrow and kill um...talos, or someone, for their portfolio, and rain hell down from the sky.

if you want a literal 'what do you think would happen' though, imho it would carry on for some hundereds of years if not thousands, and eventually you'd have something that looks like ebberon, OR a steampunk sort of world, something like final fantasy 9's setting, which screams FR but with airships. FF was based on dnd and they admit that, going back to the first one =)

ed: yus those are kool =) needs visual ones for the win!

Grymia wrote:

(outside of a resurgance of plushdolls)

Best. Invention. Ever.

Red Wizards, priests and their ilk would totally wipe out any nascent technology. I'm thinking of petrol companies squishing electric cars.

Dwagin wrote:

Nivo wrote:

It was the ritual that Karsus used to wrest control of the Weave from Mystryl. Basically, it allowed the caster to assume a god's powers. Karsus' notes were snatched up by Mystra and were never, ever, seen again.

Don't forget the storytelling element!

As the power was funneling away, at the last moment when she retained a spark of divinity she killed herself, and caused the spell to fail. Reincarnating thereafter. However for the briefest of moments All magic ceased. Constructs. Liches, Floating cities.. Crash. Boom. Dead. Karsus transformed into a giant boulder of blood-red oozing rock. While he with his hubris tried to make Netheril the greatest of human empires, his very folly, his act, is what brought about the collapse and its fall. Quite literally in every way.

To be honest, I would have liked these changes to have had some IG event accompanying them, something like Cordor's fall, or the like.

All of these happened centuries before Amia's timeline even started so there was no in game event needed.

Amian Timeline!: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5737

Didi wrote:

Red Wizards, priests and their ilk would totally wipe out any nascent technology. I'm thinking of petrol companies squishing electric cars.

This is probably true.

I hate to be a naysayer but I must repeat my earlier point about magic becoming commonplace: it's not just a matter of cultural evolution. It's a physical limitation: crafting even a minor magic item drains XP. Learning to craft anything takes years of training. Magic can never be mass produced anymore, unless new mythals and mythallars are invented. And I don't think that's the direction magic will take, because there are gods and their mortal servants who direct the course of things.

Technology will not replace magic, however, for a variety of reasons: most gods probably don't want that. Most magic-users probably don't want that. And most importantly, it's a fantasy setting and will remain one. This reason is half OOC, but you can't deny it's relevance IC: the Realms has had a much longer history than us to develop technology and move on, yet it's been stuck in roughly the same stage of technological developement for as long as I can tell. There has been some innovation, especially social and political advancement, but people still use swords similar to those they used 10.000 years ago under dragon rule. We know OOC this is because FR is supposed to be a high fantasy setting. But clearly it's an IC fact, so there's no reason to assume from an IC perspective that it's about to change anytime soon.

You also assume there wouldn't be plenty of dark ages in the Realms. That's pretty unbelievable. There have been several setbacks and the entire history of the Realms is one stagnant story. (I also seriously question your interpretation of the Middle Ages, its supposed stagnation and the role the church had in it, and most modern historians agree. But it's not very relevant here.)

Cool topic, though. I just completely disagree with a lot of the speculation here.

TormakSaber wrote:

Dwagin wrote:

To be honest, I would have liked these changes to have had some IG event accompanying them, something like Cordor's fall, or the like.

All of these happened centuries before Amia's timeline even started so there was no in game event needed.

I meant for the rebalancing that went in very recently, not Karsus's folly, just to clarify, ^^

Karsus's Avatar*:

Netheril - Empire of Magic wrote:

(Invocation/Evocation‚ Enchantment/Charm‚ Alteration)
Level: 12
Range: Unlimited
Duration: Unlimited
Area of Effect: One god
Field: Mentalism
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 6 hours
Saving Throw: Special

Karsus spent well over a decade researching this spell.
It was so complex that he had to use a stone-filled gizzard
of a gold dragon and part of the epidermis of the pituitary
gland of the tarrasque just to enchant one of the material
components of the spell.

This spell allowed the caster to become a god of his
choosing, replacing a current god with himself the
moment the spell was completed. Whether the gods
received a saving throw, were aware of its casting, and
other factors were unknown.

The notes regarding the spell’s essence were nowhere
to be found. It’s believed Mystra, the reincarnated form of
Mystryl, snatched the spell information from the ruins of
Karsus’s enclave and sent it on an eternal journey to the
ends of the universe.

*Their spelling, not mine

Boombolt, Amia's pre-gun protoype, I think so!

However, if thats the case then I must say Gunpowder will do bitch hell all in the future.

Nope. The boombolt is just a extremely modified crossbow(with a scope). No barrel, no nothin like a gun but a trigger(which all crossbows have anyway). I've already asked if it was a pre-gun, and that was the answer I got.

And Gond's never gonna let Gunpowder get that advanced, as I see it. The only reason he revealed it to the gnomes was because they took him in in his mortal form when he was cast down during ToT. And rumor has it he still throws a monkey wrench in their experiments when he feels they're getting a little too "ahead of the game" so to speak.

Solution: Kill Gond. And Oghma while we're at it.

Gond would love to let technology go wild, I imagine. It's Oghma that keeps tight reins on him.

Don't they say that necessity is the mother of invention? Insofar as Amia specifically is concerned there is no need for technological advancement. The only drain imposed for creating very powerful wands, scrolls and other magic items is gold and mythals. Not exactly rare commodities on Amia.

If the island was not overrun with what is, in a wider sense, a plauge of exceptionally powerful mages then perhaps the inventive gnomes and their gadgets wouldn't be banished to a tiny island and left to go nuts.

There is alot more that could be said on cultural trends and the like but the simple fact is that magic is not unusual on Amia and is also hardly dynamic. Research can be done and relativly minor changes made but it is hardly likely that a pantheon of gods is going to be happy with any significant change to a system and culture that affords them a vast well of power.

I thought that there were smoothbore cannons in a DM event.

<_<
>_>

*cough* Shush you.

Anywhom, we all know this thread has just been born of the wish to have a decent steampunk multiplayer world. :wink:

Seeing as we're talking about Amian culture, and not necessarily Ferun as a whole, I'd assume that the cultural roots of the island rest with Cordor, that being by far the largest and most influential settlement in the area. Considering Cordor's history as a fishing village that became a port of call for the adventuring population that flooded the island. I think the current plot line in Cordor with the creation of the commonwealth to be an excellent example of cultural development. We see a monarchy, complete with a sort of "above the law" over-class in the form of not only the nobles but the overly entitled adventuring class as well. The better off castes had access to far more magical and technological power than the lower ones, leaving the commoners without such luxuries. In many real world instances, the imperial powers conquering Africa for example, the things that granted power were often feared and demonized by the oppressed. The Machine gun was thought to be the product of sinister magics, things of that nature.
I would think that the lower castes of Amian society would fear things like advanced magic, or at the very least be in awe of them. In the end, fear and resentment gets the better of the people who have been disenfranchised for so long, and voila, we see the Commonwealth, created by what amounts to a serf uprising. Obviously the other major cities would have their own cultural ques, but in Cordor at least, I think you'd find the culture to be very politically minded, respectful of the benefits of a hard day's labor, basically a state that on the surface at least exposes the "working class hero".

Also worth noting that the above cultural phenomenon lead to most of the worlds revolutions.

Ego680 wrote:

I would think that the lower castes of Amian society would fear things like advanced magic, or at the very least be in awe of them.

This is probably one of the factors why, where the Tower once stood, there is now a portal to a remote island where the new Monolith / Mystra's Tower now rests.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

<_<
>_>

*cough* Shush you.

Anywhom, we all know this thread has just been born of the wish to have a decent steampunk multiplayer world. :wink:

Well, originally it was just born of some inspiration I have for my next RL writing project, but, yeah...

I really loved Arcanum. Well, I did up until I got to the part in the plot where they seemed to be running out of time and money and just threw the rest of it together, leaving some threads just blowing in the wind.

Mostly, however, it's just some fanciful conjecture.

billytheid wrote:

Also worth noting that the above cultural phenomenon lead to most of the worlds revolutions.

Actually I've been able to draw a great many parallels between the revolution in Cordor and the real world Russian revolution. I'm not sure if Yoss in his infinite wisdom planed it that way or not.

>.>

This topic made me think of the Zork series of games and the Frobozz. (If anyone has a clue what I'm on about

)

Selvec Darkon wrote:

<_<
Anywhom, we all know this thread has just been born of the wish to have a decent steampunk multiplayer world. :wink:

Quoted for the Truth.. (QFT)

Lascivar wrote:

>.>

This topic made me think of the Zork series of games and the Frobozz. (If anyone has a clue what I'm on about

)

Yes, I remember those, and even played them. Zork was my first adventure in electronic rpg... my second being Questron.

I dont know if someone has answered with this yet but I think its a pretty good explanation. Followers of Gond. He is like the god of invention and stuff. If anyone wants progress its him. Another thing is allot of the technology's we have today are here because it was invented for use in war. Like on Torril mages are nice but decent mages are rare. If you want true firepower you cant rely on a mage to be there. With the inventions of the cannon you get a small team of men doing the job of a mage. If you have read many books with ship battles in forgotten realms you will most likely see a cannon in use, and as long as there is war there will be progress. The followers of Gond will always be needed. (although many look at them in a negative light not liking progress)

The Evolution of Amian Culture

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