This thread is basically intended to spark a bit of a conversation regarding exactly what people expect from criminal/thief/rogue RP here in a land with no real consequences. For the most part criminal RP that I've seen here involves quite a good deal of back-stabbing, spying and inter-gang/guild fighting; neglecting for the most part the act of being, in a wider social sense, a criminal. Bear in mind that, socially speaking, 'criminal RP' breaks laws and as such MUST occour in a place with laws.

Does this stem from almost any 'criminal' act that doesn't use the job system needing a DM?

Does it stem from an inability to actually attack people in a city?

Is the problem that other PCs cannot be significantly robbed?

Are we just too soft?

Personally I feel that the currently criminal RP in cities is almost impossible to do without either metagaming or ensuring DM oversight. 'Turf wars' just won't happen on any grand scale... they will be limited to either snitching or tracking people outside of cities and ambushing them(bear in mind that 'hunting' monsters as a means to make money now boarders on an OOC requirement for some, and don't say 'nothing is OOC' when paladins and necromancers are happy to trade epic loot without fear of divine consequence).

The inability to steal anything from another PC combined with the utter lack of value vis a vie gold renders 'consensual theft' utterly pointless. Crime should be feared after all... so, what can we do to make things better and worse?

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

Criminal RP freedom has been tried many times by the DM Team, and every time it has merely acted to illustrate why it is a bad idea when left in the hands of the same players who, well, enjoy playing criminals.

Ultimately; deal with it. Criminal PCs can still work as long as you aren't relying on old tricks. Likewise, in cities, you're fine. Just pick a city other than Cordor.

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Mostly Retired

Seriously?

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

That's pretty vague.

I think most inter-city criminal activity would require a DM to oversee. They'll give you the information you're gathering or the loot you're stealing from unoccupied buildings, etc.

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By criminal freedom, I of course mean "No DM Involvement or Overwatch to make sure you're being, well, reasonable". Scarily enough, Criminal RP doesn't work viably without the overwatch. Banditry? Sure. Assassins and mercenary work? Absolutely. City-based crime, though? Always has issues, always ends up with a headache, and always ends up with someone getting in trouble for behaving in a moronic manner.

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Mostly Retired

This may be true... but I ask again are we getting too soft. If someone acts in a moronic manner then one would expect their 'Guildmaster' to turf them out of the city (or into the canals). If this happens and people are respectful of the IC notions of being a criminal then fine... if not the one can assume word will get back to the authorities and then the whole gang is buggered. Either way responsibility is taken.

Also, Cordor isn't a Sims with Swords play pen... the lack of PvP ability in the cities is easily the most stifiling thing on the server in my humble opinion and utterly counter intuitive to an RP server. As is the inability to steal from people...

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

IC Conduct and OOC Conduct are two seperate behaviours. Players don't get in trouble for poor IC conduct. They get in trouble for poor OOC Conduct.

It's for this exact reason that Cordor South was made No PvP some time ago. The DM Team said "Okay, here's your crime area, play nice, behave, and be reasonable". Eventually it became "OK. No more" and now you have your No PvP Cordor South.

When players can learn to not only be reasonable OOC, but also bite down the consequences for their actions (including the consequences of IC actions, such as "You might get punished by the Guard when you get caught for being a moron"), then maybe the Team might change it. I don't see it coming up in the future, though.

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Mostly Retired

I think where billytheid is coming from is that different people are strong with different character types. Some might prefer playing on the side of "light" while others love to play on the side of "dark". I've been told by more than a few who have played this server that if you want to play a bad guy, then be prepared to receive no "love". Personally, I don't see that, as of yet, but then I haven't really gone into rp'ing a criminal or other serious bad guy on this PW.



This quote comes off as though the poster is saying that those who RP criminals cannot be trusted, or are rule breakers themselves.

I've RP'ed a few criminals in my time, and never had any problem other than the victim's players crying about their loss. In RL, if you are robbed, then you complain to the police, who, if they do their job, and find clues, may or may recover your losses, or at least punish the criminals. In RL, you don't have an admin to cry to OOC'ly.

My point is that we can have criminal-type RP without breaking rules. We just have to remember that bad things happen our toons, and if you are a good RP'er you rp it.

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I hated hipsters before hating them was cool.

Well said.

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I hated hipsters before hating them was cool.

Yes, I recall the great days of Cordor South being a PvP possible area... sadly it suffered the same issues Amia Forrest is now facing... you can only fit so many Dragons in a back ally. This doesn't really address all of the original questions however...

What about stealing from other PCs?

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

The widget is usable in Cordor East. Just try to lure your target away from the massive number of guards.

((Edit for grammar))

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Gold has almost no value on Amia... and the pathetic dividends of pickpocketing do not make sense considering the wealth of items carried by average Joe Adventure on Amia. A thieves guild is not going to consider lifting 30 gold a high value target in the Amian 'economic environment'. It is an unreasonable assesment.

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

Stealing is an issue that has some serious baggage. I think that sometimes people are so invested in their characters, and the work they did to find an item, that, like in real life, it pisses them off when someone comes along and snatches it.

Yeah, I can understand that.

I can also understand how the DM's don't want to be inundated with whinging players crying about how such and such an item that they spent so much gold to build to their specifications and how they ground for weeks to get that perfect mythal to charge the said item, only to have a thief take it.

I've seen it happen where a player threw an OOC fit and did all he could to disrupt an entire PW because someone pickpocketed a rare ring from him.

So, the DM's are charged with either putting up with all the OOC griefing, whinging, rulebreaking, or they just say "nope, don't want to deal with it", and I don't blame them.

If we could come up with an equitable solution that doesn't get the DM's flooded with the OOC crap that comes along with the RP, then perhaps we can have the RP.

That will take mature, responsible people.

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I hated hipsters before hating them was cool.

I wish we could gank people and loot them dry. Anything that makes crime more viable and dangerous for everyone involved is welcome, IMO.

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The only way that would be fair on an RP multiplayer server would be if we had huge storage things like the Bank System for each character. Footlockers in their houses, public storage, etc.

My character ICly doesn't carry around 500+ items on, even with all the bags of holding he has, IMO. He just happens to have what he needs at the time. Most of the priceless heirlooms and the mountains of magic books he has(while he has them in his inventory in a bag) are truly back at his mansion on his wall. I don't know, maybe that's metagammy and I should say he has all the hundreds of items on him all the time. But I like to think of it as the former. And if he doesn't ICly carry his hoard with him everywhere, it would make no sense for someone to be able to steal off of it off him in one go.

Thus, the need for huge storage where people could put the stuff "too valuable to lose" in safe keeping.

removed for being ranty

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

Crime isn't fair. What would be the point?

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

We are playing a game, the end goal being an enjoyable time for all. If I wanna get mugged and robbed, well, that can happen in real-life thankyouverymch.

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Playing:
Marcus Valis

It has nothing to do with "fair", thankyouverymuch. It's perfectly "fair". It may be "unrealistic" if you suppose you keep your stuff stored somewhere. But that's why we have storage already. You could just limit mugging to gold, though.

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The biggest problem is the biggest response to a criminal not executing his activity perfectly would be NPC response. Cordor has guards all over the place. All it takes is the PC shouting "HELP GUARDS, GUARDS!" and DM intervention is now required if an NPC guard (and no PC guard) is within earshot.

Even if their's not, the PC can get free and run to said guard.
Or things could go horrid for said Criminal and the PC target could disable the Criminal... and bring them to said guards... or leave them for a guard/others to find.

If not for all the NPC based contingancies that have to be accounted for, I'd just say OOCly contact your mark and RP it out. You'd be suprised how many people don't really mind bad things happening to their characters.

Edit: Removed a touch of snark... Also, I just noticed my name turning green, this is just -my- views, not an opinion as a developer.

Edit2: Clarification, my touch of snark was re: folks not willing to have bad things to happen to their characters.

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Cordor, along with every other hut or hovel on the island, is packed to the gills with guards. This does not have to remain the case however... Guards do not have to be utterly incorruptable... the list goes on. Amia is not exactly conducive to criminal RP and so I ask again; are we too soft?

I've tried the IC contact thing also... with theft and assassinations. About seven times out of ten you are greeted by a buffed to the nines powerhouse waitng to be 'mugged'. Five times out of ten they will have friends. This is a simple truth. What's better is beating them through guile, cunning or force of arms only to have them drop ten gold and storm off.

Basically it comes back to the fact that people don't like to lose and given the chance will test their mettle in battle. Not a good combination when they then 'reward' you with your theft.

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

Let's also not forget that it's not necessarily correct to pigeonhole "criminals" as "bad guys" or even "guys on the side of darkness" or however you want to put it. Literature is rife with "good" characters who are on the shady side of the law. Gotta say, for the player who is trying to play this type of character, Billy's posting is doubly apt. There's very little to do, outside the job system, that reflects a criminal bent.

I just don't understand why there can't be areas of Cordor that are wilder than others. If a noob tries to solo the sewers as a 2nd level and dies, we don't wring our hands and say, "oh, we've got to make things FAIR for this guy...". We say, "shouldn't go there yet." IMO, if you traipse down the alleys of the bad part of town and you get robbed, you probably shouldn't have gone there. If people start slinging crazy spells and summoning things that would knock buildings down, etc. then the guard steps in and people go to jail, get fined, lose items, get maimed, etc. If the person who brought down such heat was a member of the guild, I could see severe consequences for them. If there's a problem with higher-levels preying on lower levels, just have a system in place like the party system, where you can pickpocket or PvP only people within a certain ECL of yourself. That would actually give lower-level thieves something to do. Finally, you place something truly desirable in the bad part of town: either a cool store, or the only entrance to the cool part of the sewers, etc. and watch how things develop. Wouldn't it be cool if civic-minded folks started a bodyguarding business, escorting people in and out of "Hell's Kitchen"? Wouldn't it be awesome if when you stepped out of the sewers, your adventure wasn't over, because you could get robbed on your way home?

Of course, if you don't like the idea, you COULD just stick to the good parts of town, and you'd never have to deal with it.

Just a thought.

-VK

There is crime and mischief to be had a plenty. Are you so stuck on Cordor that all of you have forgotten the rest of the towns in the mod? Cordor is not likely to change any time soon in accordance with the fact that it is the default starting area for standard races and is meant to, I believe, be a relative "safe zone" to allow a new player to get acclimated to the setting.

Otherwise, don't let the man in the stocks of Wiltun discourage a well planned heist. What good is crime after all if it has no potential to fail? Sounds like boring RP to be king of crime if there is no punishment.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

How easy would it be to fix this? Just script the guards to set themselves to hostile when PvP occurs. They step in, bash some heads, take people to jail, etc. When you are killed by a guard, you wake up in jail with a horrible headache and a world of trouble coming your way.

"Ah, but I'm the victim! Why would the guards arrest me?" Well, when two kids are fighting, mom and dad don't care if he touched you first. Try having a gun battle in downtown LA and when the cops come, say, "but he started it!"

what he said

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

Because it doesn't make any sense at all that the densest concentration of population and wealth has zero crime. Same reason John Dillinger robbed banks: 'cause that's where the money is. If you're the criminal boss of Wharftown, you're really not living very high on the hog.

again, what he said. "they call me the Codfather"...meh...

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

As far as this is concerned; be aware that this is not a whinge about never doing anything thread. I've RPed through plenty of risk, reward and failure in crime RP on Amia; one of the key problems is that it isn't very dynamic.

Heists have been planned and executed before... oddly enough no one seemed to care. The Temple of Waukeen was bombed and raided once... ONE person investigated. They found a few clues but no one chased it up... why? Good question... perhaps it's that they saw no threat to their PC's stuff... 'is this OOC rationalization of IC inaction?' I ask my shoulder mounted paladin. 'Yes,' he smites 'it's lame'.

EDIT: will continue later...too much to drink now

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Jess Incognito: F.L.A.G. Inc.
Gharl Killith: Hobgoblin Headhunter
Olaf Grudgebringer: Bad tempered Dwarvern Weaponsmith
"But thats mainly because I'm an Aussie and what you guys call flaming and rudeness I call a normal conversation."

Become boss of Winya, Brog, Wiltun, Caraigh, or Uhm and Wharftown... Heck, I'd love to see someone take over outer Khol, nice and snuggled up close to the bastion of law that is Paladin Central.

Get past the idea that Cordor has 0% crime rate. People can burgle the daylights out of it. People can be RP mugged in a back alley via emote and dice rolls just as well as they could have such done to them mechanically via clicking one button. Besides: where is your argument for why Cordor would have so many active guards if crime -wasn't- an issue.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I have to say honestly that the DMs are RIGHT in what they don't allow criminals to do.

The reason being that in every instance they allow criminals to be criminals, some jerkwad comes and ruins the whole thing by being....well....a jerkwad.

In almost every instance that a DM would allow stealing more or something to that end, always expect some player to abuse that system to their own gain.

In essence the DMs give the proverbial inch, and some idiot takes the proverbial mile.

Don't blame the DMs for removing the PvP settings in Cordor, thank the players who ritually abuse it.

I've seen this on another server and it works well, the city guards whip you down bad and you wake up in jail. I think the PC is allowed out of jail after 10 minutes real time.
Also on that server, when a PC is banned from a city, they literally can't get back in until reset, but there was rarely a DM on so that may have been initiated because of that, I don't know.

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I think I have to clarify one of my earlier edits, the bit of snark I removed was re: people who arn't willing to allow anything bad to happen to their characters.

Mostly my stance with prefering DM oversight is all the conditions that can go either way.

Johny gets mugged by Jimmy in a back alley. Johnny yells for the guards.

Here's some of the the things that can happen here..

Guard hears, shows up, apprehends Jimmy, throws him in the stock.
Guard hears, too busy with his coffee, shows up after Jimmy's long gone.
Guard hears, shows up, Johny's been a pain in his side, Tells Jimmy to be gone before he shows back up, drinks his coffee.
Guard's asleep.
Guard hears, shows up. Jimmy's been a good kid otherwise, lets Jimmy go with a warning.
Guard hears, Jimmy's bribed him ahead of time, guard drinks his coffee.
Guard is distracted by Frank who's arguing about having his epic keen dentle floss stolen, ignores Johnny.
Guard shows up, puts both Johnny and Jimmy in the dirt due to an old grudge and skips town.
Guard hears, but Johny's dating the guard's daughter. Guard shows up and hides the body. Tells Susan he's so sorry.
etc.
etc.
etc.


There's just -so- much RP that can be done for the setup, execution, and follow through, that it really, in populated areas, requires oversight.

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Oh, both of you are misunderstanding me. I don't mean "it's unfair that you can steal from me", hell no, that's not my point. I'm saying it's unfair that I don't have anyway where else to keep my items other than on me.

Last I checked, you're only supposed to put up to 20 items in the banking system. So it's not viable for storing the large quantities of items many adventurers acquire.

The "fairness" is if you're going to be able to steal something off my person, something that is ICly justifiable, I should be able to take IC means to go about not having my stuff looted, aka putting it somewhere safe, or in storage somewhere.

It's like saying "don't take anything on a canoe ride that you're not prepared to loose". Fine. Since there's a chance of me loosing something valuable on the ride, I'll leave it at home. I'll take my gold pocket watch out and leave it in my dresser drawer.

The same thing would go for walking through the wilderness or in South Cordor. Oh, there's a chance of me getting mugged in seedy places? Oh, okay, let me leave my trove of uber-weapons at my house then. Oh wait, I can't do that.

See what I was talking about?

I have to agree with Dominik, and admit if I was playing a criminal playing in Cordor.. i'd probably be more prone to a very careful plan before doing anything.

Cordor, a 0% crime rate?

Crimes, blue collar and white collar, victimless or not, happen there every day under my watch, but not one is paying close enough attention to notice. And I don't always advertise them. I only advertise what will be relevant.

Crime RP sans a DM cannot flourish on Amia until two things happen simultaneously:

- Everyone becomes willing to be victimized.
- Everyone becomes willing to be OOC'ly compassionate when they victimize someone else, instead of going into mean extremes such as griefing and all of the other "bad things".

This can actually be broken down into one major change that needs to happen:

- Everyone needs to be like me.

Heh.. I was thinking (at least in part) of the same kinda point. White collar crime is something that in Cordor could quite readily flourish..

As for the white/blue collar crime happening.. sadly, I imagine one needs to know where to look. *or where to THINK to look*

*points at the pretty peacock* that.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Alrighty. Speaking as a veteran Guard and current leader of that faction, I will tell you that "Criminal RP" often boils down to ignoring a lot of factors and having no creativity whatsoever. I've seen PvP South, and No PvP South. In all crime RP I see happen down there (and reasonably all around Cordor), and I end up going, "Do they want to get caught? Seriously?" Eventually, it just becomes tedious and only fun for one person, or a few persons, who generally whine when they get caught, because it didn't go their way.

Consider this as Guards who deal with your Crime RP. Gold has no value. Right, so fines are pretty much a no-go, since Amia has a fixation with "I need to be level 30 before I can RP" so most people are sitting on piles of gold. The next thing is jail time. Super. Except we either get bitched at OoC for asking someone to sit in a cell and take the consequence of getting caught, whether it's being interrogated or just being ridiculed by whatever Guards caught you. More often than not, if we're not getting bitched at, it's because the person went afk to do something, since we're kind enough to go, "((Okay, your jail time is 30 mins.))" They go watch TV. Do I feel insulted? No, I'm used to it.

So, the last option is to just remove someone from the city, which at most, in most cases, just until the reset. And then we lose the possibility to RP with you, you lose the possibility to RP with us, and then occasionally, I'll get mean tells saying, "Thanks for ruining my criminal RP. Where am I supposed to RP now?" or "Thanks, I only get so much time to play this game and now I don't get to RP in Cordor for X amount of time. Seriously, thanks."and then cue a frustrated log off.

Criminal RP... I don't know what happens somewhere along the line, but there is almost no effort in not getting caught. No one checks for witnesses, or is actually "subtle" (and when my PC calls them on it, I'm a metagamer for being logical). And then when I get there, I usually have an argument to sort out OoC because someone will go, "That's them, officer!" and then the suspect goes, "((I changed clothes))" or "((You didn't see me!")). Etc.

If you want to talk about soft, consider that when the Guards are searching you, we're not even allowed to take your weapons, lockpicks, contraband, and other stuff for evidence or just because we go "Oh, hell no. This person is a psycho murderer. I'm not letting him leave with a WF longsword and +5 fort cloak." And so I pose this. You always talk about Guards being corrupt. Could you actually handle it if an NPC or PC Guard was processing a criminal and decided to go, "Hey, I always wanted -exactly what you have-!" and then take it, kill you, and toss you out on your ass? Or, does the "corrupt guard" excuse only work when it's an enabler for Criminal RP to work without effort in planning, or goodness forbid, just leaving Cordor?

On attacking the city: Yes, we get attacked often and you have no idea how frustrating it can be sometimes to have every level 30 group or heck, even solo, go "I want to attack Cordor and kill all the Guards." With no more reason to do it than they can. And the fact that there are also PCs there to PvP, potentially. No one wants to raze, say, Uhm because there is no one there. No sense of accomplishment, maybe? I don't know. Further, no DM would probably approve it, because there isn't much reason beyond, "My character is evil and likes to break things" and there is no real RP generated from it. It just gets chalked up to bragging rights, and eventually gets repaired for an equally vague reason, which is characters with piles of gold deciding to be altruistic with their recent plunders from the Fire Giant Spire.

Is it really so OoC to go, "Nah, man. Cordor is a bad investment. Guards everywhere. Lets go with smaller scores elsewhere until we can think of a plan. I don't want to get strung up or lose everything."? There is not a whole lot of risk in PC crime, because we can't touch you without grieving coming up.

Now that I've ranted a bit about criminal RP, I want to say that I have met some good criminals and had great RP by them. In my time on the server, I've met three and I miss them. Two of them left the server, and one of them just skipped Cordor and got wise. The criminal life didn't suit him, and he had a bad wrap in Cordor. Not good for business, y'see?

So, basically, my take on criminal RP, and the challenge for criminal RPers is: Be creative. Make it interesting. Try not to get caught at all, and play the cards straight to eliminate all suspicion.

Also, what Yoss said times a million. <3

Edit: Also, sorry for the length. This will likely be the only post i make actually stating my opinion and providing a counter-point so nothing I say will get twisted or otherwise. I prefer cohesion with my opinions.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

I would love to see criminal roleplay to be able to work better through scripts, even if I do not play a thief or bandit. Items are a bit hard to make, but with gold I think there is a possible solution. This would require,

1. A banking system which allows you to store your gold for a 5% fee, which also provides a gold sink for amia's economy.
2. A way to get the gold back from the thief if detected, which could be done by ensuring that when you die you drop all your gold you carry on your person at that time.
3. A script which allows you to gain actual gold from your pickpocket victim.

Most characters would carry smaller sums on them as if they die or a pickpocket they can lose a large percentage of what they have on. This also means that pvp would get a slight pep, as you can loot your corpses, but without them having to lose all they ever gathered because there is the bank making it far from extreme. If you know who stole your gold ic, you can tell them to give it back and inform the authorities, or if he attempts to run or refuses smack the thief and pick it from his corpse, pvp rules of course still applying.

Of course this does not take care of problems such as ^ just mentioned.

Has Amia ever considered conducting trials on the forums? Of course, it would mean the crminals would have to be okay with being locked up for a while, maybe few days.

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Being a former Cordorian Guardsman, and Clerk I have to agree with Nev.

Criminal RP CAN be done well and CAN be quite interesting if cards're played right and if you think outside of the typical "I'm going to mug you." RP or similar.

*Now, that said I have seen some Mugging RP that really was quite cleverly done and even if it was Mugging RP that's been seen, the personality involved in it was worth the time*

I wouldn't do a trial on the forum, no. It sounds like it'd be a trial for the sake of a trial, and just mean I have to read a wall of text. And then, goodness forbid, a sense of entitlement for a trial. Nevaeh does paperwork. I don't.

We've had a couple trials IG, which were fun, because it depended on selecting a good jury, getting your lawyer there and prepped, getting your witnesses to testify, and then seeing how the cross-examination goes. Court rooms are also sometimes closed. You get the people you want to be spectators, and then close it up. Then, the Guards or bailiffs weed out who is a problem and who shouldn't be there.

Just doing it on the forum cheapens the experience, says I, and cuts out some possibilities.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

We struggle to keep things in the game as much as possible, actually. However, I will say this...

...if there is a player or a group of players out there that TRULY and GENUINELY impress me, OOC'ly as a DM, and truly impress the Ministry of LAW IC'ly, and then that also purchase a rental housing place and build it to be a courtroom, I may allow you to be pseudo-officially recognized as a courthouse in Cordor where trials of criminals can occur, right down to PC litigants, prosecusion, defense, jury, and possibly judiciary.

But you'd really have to sell me on it. That's not an exaggeration.

Ahhh, I wasn't sure if Amia actually had trials at all. It's one of the major reasons I didn't bother making a criminal or turning Gorthod towards petty crime. Getting caught with your hands bloody and in some poor dead persons pockets and then getting told to leave the city seemed a bit silly to me.

EDIT: That is tempting, Yos, but alas I know next to nothing about the workings of law let alone anyone else who'd be willing to give that a shot.

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Well, there are a couple options which are safeguarded. We could have a trial for say, murder, and have their PC locked up for a bit for the duration. Which is actually unpopular, really, because in my experience the player feels jilted and that their time is wasted. (Note: This is from my experience in dealing with criminals PCs and talking to some of them.) By and large, they don't want to sit in jail and wait for trials. They want to go RP something else and cheapen the RP'd consequence.

I'm also at a loss of what to do when I get a murderer PC. I can put them in the jail, but you know, I don't want to babysit them there until two RL days, or a week, pass and we can RP a trial. I don't know what to do, and it's awkward for me to ask you to log so Nevaeh can go and continue watching for more inevitable crimes. It becomes difficult and frustrating for players, who's PC is incarcerated, and in other words, unplayable. I don't come on to make people's characters unplayable and ruin their playing experience, or make them not like me OoC because I committed their PC to a trial that the player has no interest in participating in.

The other option is just hanging the bastard. Execution. Also unpopular, and ineffective. Sure, we kill you and put the effort in to having you hanged, but you'll be back. We know it. No perma death, so death for crimes is ineffective. Sometimes, I feel ineffective as a Guard because there is no real consequence for high crimes. Maybe it's burn out that will make me go, "Just leave. Oh, and forever too. You're a murderer, and we don't need you coming back to murder more people." And you can imagine the OoC whining I get for that...

Edit: And then, for the people who want trials, well. I don't know how to explain it. One person gets one and the other doesn't? I get enough cries of Nevaeh being corrupt without her having that hanging over her head. What I've come to doing is having her say, "No trials for non-citizens, dirtbag. You have no right." and then the caveat of sometimes, for particularly high crimes, we'll have a trial of "Criminal vs the Commonwealth of Cordor" so the DMs still have flexibility to do what they want.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

Nev's post hit it on the head, most of the rest of the topic isn't worth reading.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I see what you're talking about, but it has nothing to do with fair. You're misusing the word. It wouldn't be fair if you couldn't store your items somewhere but someone else could. It wouldn't be fair if you were suspectible to losing all your stuff in a mugging but others were not. But if everyone operates under the same rules and expectations, whether it's fun or realistic, there's nothing unfair about it.

Frankly, I'm inclined to say "deal with it." I'd love to see more actual chances for muggings and other crime. You're an adventurer: you can store a certain amount of valuables somewhere safe, and that amount is theoretically the same for everyone (though faction bases might of course offer more storage space). Everything else you want to own, you'll have to carry on you. And when you do, you risk losing it all. But the same goes for those muggers: unless they spend all their previous haul before trying to rob you, they run the risk of failing, losing their property and maybe even getting hanged for it.

All this also requires the possibility of actual death penalty and other kinds of enforced punishment. I honestly don't think you can start anything serious and controversial on Amia, apart from a few done-to-death concepts, until we accept the risk permadeath and other consequences that you might not "like" OOC. As long as there's no consequence, there's no meaningful crime on Amia. It remains a sandbox.

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There's this great game called Darkfall that lets you loot bodies and gank them and steal everything.

Oh wait, it's not great, it failed, because of that exact mechanic, and like no one plays it anymore.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

What I want to prevent is this "Capture the flag" feeling with Criminal RP and potential resulting PvP. Sure, you steal it, then you get away. Muwahahaha. Then the person hears you laughing evil-y in the alleyway, since they were raised after five minutes with the PvP system. Then it's "O shit." Pwned. Stuff taken back. And then someone tries to steal it again. Let's face it. It'd be persistent, because there is no reason it shouldn't be. Look at PvP as it is already. There are people who enact good and IC PvP revenge on people who killed them before, and then that turns back around on them, for the intangible win. Now, give them an actual tangible reward that can be taken without consent. Say a Cloak of Fortification +5. Capture the Cloak.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

If 1 person could take items off someone else without asking for OOC permission first, everyone would want the same ability within 2 days of it being put in place.

Plus even more people would cry foul over it(which would be MORE than everyone, a physical impossability.. so it can't be done. Laws of physics said so.)

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer