AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Crime and Punishment: What is criminal RP on Amia?

Selvec: there's probably a lot of truth to what you said. Those are practical details that can be worked around, though.

I hate bringing up the fact that I've been playing another, more hardcore server lately and compare it to Amia, but it's warranted here: people assume that things like being able to permakill PCs or steal from them will ruin the game and create rampant griefing. That's nonsense. DMs can and should be just as stern about griefing in a more risky environment. Things can be done different, they have been done different, and it works just fine with none of the apocalyptic visions many of you paint. I know, I was one of you: fiercly defending certain assumptions I thought were the core Amia's philosophy, uncompromising in certain things I simply had no idea about. Maybe I still have no idea, but I am confident in saying that neither do most of the DMs or players.

I mostly agree with Vince too. (I don't mind the hunting grounds or the fact that you can powergame; I don't like that you're completely immune to outside influence in this.) Amia tries to be everything at once. Yes, this has secured a large playerbase. A large playerbase on unhappy whiners (myself included) at eachother's throats because their expectations are contrary opposites. This is one way to go about things, but I wonder if there's a better way. I sure think so.

Well, consider this, for the people offended by the "criminals can't take consequences" vibe. You're only a criminal if you get caught.

Burningoutbright wrote:

Well, consider this, for the people offended by the "criminals can't take consequences" vibe. You're only a criminal if you get caught.

Then consider none of my characters criminals yet.

I'm going to explain that by "consequences" I don't mean jail-time or getting caught or any of that. I mean, like I've said, taking the higher road. -That's- the consequence of playing an evil character in any game that is good-centered and deals with players that can be immature and might have different ideas of fun than you. You take on the responsibility (similarly to a DM) of affecting someone's RP in a way that (similarly to a DM) has the possibility of positive or negative, in a way they might not be able to avoid, and a way that can if done right be great for all.

I have made some of the "blanket" statements and I hope people realize I don't actually mean every criminal RPer. But I do mean most of the ones posting in this topic, yes. I don't think you make that good of a criminal unless you make that good of a DM. *shrug*

Estara wrote:

I have made some of the "blanket" statements and I hope people realize I don't actually mean every criminal RPer. But I do mean most of the ones posting in this topic, yes. I don't think you make that good of a criminal unless you make that good of a DM. *shrug*

Sure.. just wanted to make sure this was realized by everyone else.

Last sentence is subjective.

Sort of.

...That last sentence looks like an insult, in my eyes.

To me, it's a giant, vibrate, glaring neon sign that says "You can't be considered a good criminal role player unless you're accepted onto the DM team". I find that so... incredibly ignorant.

While I understand that's probably not what it was meant as, that's what I thought when I first read it.

Also, on the subject of the 'original pickpocket system'... I completely agree that it is rediculously abusable and am glad that you're not able to use it on Amia. On the other hand, I've seen a few other servers where it has been properly restricted without rendering it pointless.

These limit the item size and weight of an item that can be PP'd, as well as a cooldown between when actual items can be taken. Anything bigger than 2x2 and heavier than 5 pounds will immediately be returned to the player it was removed from. When an item is PP'd from a player it then triggers a 5 minute cooldown. If the PP'er PP's someone and happens to snag an item, it is automatically returned and lists the remaining cool down timer. I'm not sure but I believe this system was also increasing, meaning the second item taken would case a 10 minute cooldown etc etc... Unless a certain amount of time past the cool down was given before an item is taken.

While this isn't immensely applicable on Amia, seeing how even 1x1 items can be worth upwards of 200,000 gold, so it would still cause people to be upset.

Aside from all this I'll continue lurking. I'm liking the back and forth in the topic ^^

I agree with Wolfking what you said was an insult.

Though I've only truly dabbled in all out crime syndicate -esqe criminal RP, rest assured it can be done. B.L.A.C.K. was originally planed as a strong arm extortion program of sorts (this is the first and only time I'll ever be admitting to that). All it took was some very specific in game events to make the whole thing change direction. I see very little wrong with the system as it stands, if you want to change it it's malleable. For the most part the only thing limiting what you can do is yourself.
Want to start a crime syndicate? it's possible, content being a petty thief? also possible. I was told once by the player who helped me come up with BLACK that I couldn't simply "yell this thing into existence!" I can, I did. If you want to change the minds of the people who don't like/don't respect criminal RP -you- have to prove them wrong, and it's probably not an easy task, but that's what it takes, you have to make your argument playing the game, not whining on a forum that something isn't fair or needs to change.

Ego680 wrote:

Though I've only truly dabbled in all out crime syndicate -esqe criminal RP, rest assured it can be done. B.L.A.C.K. was originally planed as a strong arm extortion program of sorts (this is the first and only time I'll ever be admitting to that). All it took was some very specific in game events to make the whole thing change direction. I see very little wrong with the system as it stands, if you want to change it it's malleable. For the most part the only thing limiting what you can do is yourself.
Want to start a crime syndicate? it's possible, content being a petty thief? also possible. I was told once by the player who helped me come up with BLACK that I couldn't simply "yell this thing into existence!" I can, I did. If you want to change the minds of the people who don't like/don't respect criminal RP -you- have to prove them wrong, and it's probably not an easy task, but that's what it takes, you have to make your argument playing the game, not whining on a forum that something isn't fair or needs to change.

And thats how it should be. Things evolve. BLACK is a perfect example of outside variables effecting it's path of evolution.

I am all for criminal-esque RP.

So are many others.

My suggestion: Instead of arguing why it can't be done, let us implement it, police it, and enjoy it. Ban those who abuse it maliciously.

From what I have seen, there are more mature rp'ers than immature here.

The ones wanting change want to remain here, not to have to go somewhere else, so those suggestions of "go find a hardcore server" really, really suck balls, and, I would think, are counterproductive to this PW. I like this server, and the feel of this server, for the most part. I like playing with the people here. Why do I want to go anywhere else?

Asking for a gameplay improvement on a PW you like isn't whinging. I thank billytheid for caring enough about the RP the player has with others to stay and ask for a change, rather than just leaving and letting that RP die off.

The problem is that they have implemented it in the past. These are the repercussions of that going foul.

What exactly do you mean "implement" it? There's nothing stopping you from playing a criminal now.

The problem with criminal RP stops at the players rather than the DM's, and threads like this just serve to prove that point.

What is criminal RP on Amia?

Its whatever you want it to be as long as you are obeying the rules of the server. It doesn't need to be PvP and I'm certain the DM's would love for some organised chaps to start some properly thought out criminal RP on the server.

Do some shady stuff, build up a reputation, and the small, and personal events roll. This is how I operated my Mulhorandi, and other than the first "recruitment" post, I've never put out the call for other players.

My advice, stop trying to get noticed on the forums in an OOC fashion and start getting noticed in game for the work you do at the IC level. It does happen. Regularly.

The point is drawing attention to yourself is counter-intuitive to being a criminal, drawing attention to yourself out of character is criminal suicide in a roleplaying environment.

MoshingChris wrote:

The point is drawing attention to yourself is counter-intuitive to being a criminal, drawing attention to yourself out of character is criminal suicide in a roleplaying environment.

Not always true. Also the reason I asked about criminal RP is because so many people are getting into it now.

I have to say Yoss has made the most concise point thus far. It's certainly advice I'm going to take on board.

That remark about being a DM before you can RP a criminal was inane. Should all evil PCs be DM? If so don't go multi-player.

Try even taking what I said and attempting to put a positive spin on it, because you can. You just don't want to. Make me out to be a "You can't be a good criminal unless you're on the DM Team" kind of person. That's cool. Or you could take the idea that maybe I'm trying to push you to strive for that, and in that sort of striving you will be the kind of criminal RPer -- and therefore create the kind of criminal RP -- that you and others are looking for. You're the one who asked the questions. Not me. I'm not the one who made the thread criticizing anything. You're the ones who asked for the criticism. And you got good stuff! A lot of people focused on the IC aspects of what criminals could do better, and I thought it might be prudent to focus on the OOC mindset.

The first blanket statement was me just being overdramatic and I obviously don't believe that all criminal RPers are bad. I thought it was obvious noone means literally everyone. I'm not trying to be mean. Just.. a little rough. The second comment isn't an insult or being overdramatic. It just got taken that way. Start thinking like a DM and you can be a good criminal RPer. We can argue that the server can change policies and become less hardcore, or it can learn to define itself better.. but until it does, in my mind it's the job of a criminal RPer to find an audience that wants to participate in their kind of RP. Because they are, inevitably, the instigating party of that sort of RP.

When you make yourself responsible for something, you inevitably do a better job at trying. And since this is a game, you can't make other people responsible for a feeling of fear they might not want to feel for a reason. They will avoid the responsibility, unless it is a more hardcore server. And even there I think some people avoid it.

My point is that Yossarin is right-- everyone should learn to do what he said. But the criminals needs to learn first. You're the example setters, and you're the ones who want the type of RP the most.

Criminals don't accept IC consequences.....
But neither do victims.

Large criminal RP events get nullified.

PvP is about the only real evil/criminal thing you can do...because everything else somehow seems too unfair to the victim.

We should have a "criminal" DM, who hates the playerbase enough to actually let anything other than PvP and PP fly. It would keep other topics such as "Where has evil gone?" from showing up.

What does hating the playerbase have to do with allowing altenatives other than PvP?

What you are referring to in your post is part of a vicious cycle that propagates itself because everyone wnats to take take take and not give give give. Good guy skill bad guys and the bad guys go "f u i'mnot dying cuz ur a nerd/u like pvp/my time is more important than yours/inster reason here." So they get back up. Then when the good guys die, they go "well, they're not staying dead... why should I stay dea dand lose my character if they're not willing to make it even?" Then the bad guys complain that the good guys dn't stay dead and nothing they do matters.

Criminals are obsessed with the idea of reward and taking and taking and "let me steal this", but aren't willing to accept the fact that if things go wrong, bad stuff ca happen to them, too. That neither side accepts 'consequences' is a problem that must be fixed at a playerbase level. Nothing we do can fix that.

We don't 'nullify large scale criminal events'. What normally happens is we DM them, but the players have missed some critical facet that ends with things not going as planned. Such as going to the wrong part of the sewers and then digging up, and being surprised when yu come up in Arwen's, instead of the Guardhouse.

Point well made Estara.

"Criminals are obsessed with the idea of reward and taking and taking and "let me steal this", but aren't willing to accept the fact that if things go wrong, bad stuff ca happen to them, too. That neither side accepts 'consequences' is a problem that must be fixed at a playerbase level. Nothing we do can fix that"
-Tormak

I don't think it's entirely fair to pidgeon hole criminal RP like this. From what I can see on Amia just about everyone is obsessed with "take take take" in one form or another. There is Bossfarming, the auctions that seem to occupy for forum space then anything else or the persistant desire to kill one enemy utterly(which usually means destroy their 'base').

Some of these goals are more straight forward and easy to attain then others. In the case or criminal and/or evil RP one of the biggest issues is that reaching said goal is not straight forward and easily justified. Choping up Bosses is everyday fare... razing the temples of an evil god is pretty reasonable in a world where good is the norm(in a wider social sense).

Nefarious goals on the otherhand are the kind of thing that the majority of both PCs AND NPCs are likely to opppose. It is worth bearing this in mind before being to dismissive of attempts at criminal/evil RP. It's not as easy as getting a gang of Crusaders and marching up to the Evil stronghold for a good burning.

Quote:

Nefarious goals on the otherhand are the kind of thing that the majority of both PCs AND NPCs are likely to opppose.

Then work harder at what you want?

Yes, alot of the playerbase involves "Take take take", but it's rarely at the expense of others. You want Epic Loot, you farm bosses. You want levels, you farm. You want power, you munchkin build. And so on and so forth, even into RPing. You want a liked character; you play a likable character. Etc.

However.

Theft involves taking from -others-, as opposed to taking from either an infinite supply within the server's mainframe, or from the societal nature of characters (IC respect and power, etc). In all of these it's a simple acquisition without any individual having to foot the bill for your gain.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Yes, alot of the playerbase involves "Take take take", but it's rarely at the expense of others. You want Epic Loot, you farm bosses. You want levels, you farm. You want power, you munchkin build. And so on and so forth, even into RPing. You want a liked character; you play a likable character. Etc.

However.

Theft involves taking from -others-, as opposed to taking from either an infinite supply within the server's mainframe, or from the societal nature of characters (IC respect and power, etc). In all of these it's a simple acquisition without any individual having to foot the bill for your gain.

Which is why people often don't care enough to take action. What Tormak said is true; you just have to work harder being mean and nasty.

If tangiable loss was a factor in the server then people would have to be more careful and work equally hard to avoid being an easy 'mark'.

Which again circles back into my argument.

Until the playerbase becomes the sort that is comfortable with it (Which it very much isn't), it's going to annoy at best - frustrate on average.

Tangible loss being a factor does work for some communities. It's for this kind of thing that there are multiple different NWN servers. Come cater to certain types, others cater to other types. And as such these types tend to flock to the server where they're most comfortable. As is quite evident by the playerbase - the types that flock to Amia are the types that are not interested in, well, having their things taken and having to worry about some thief taking their precious items. And thus likely aren't too enthused about having to 'work hard' just to maintain their own earnings.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Which again circles back into my argument.

Until the playerbase becomes the sort that is comfortable with it (Which it very much isn't), it's going to annoy at best - frustrate on average.

Tangible loss being a factor does work for some communities. It's for this kind of thing that there are multiple different NWN servers. Come cater to certain types, others cater to other types. And as such these types tend to flock to the server where they're most comfortable. As is quite evident by the playerbase - the types that flock to Amia are the types that are not interested in, well, having their things taken and having to worry about some thief taking their precious items. And thus likely aren't too enthused about having to 'work hard' just to maintain their own earnings.

While I for the most part agree that most players will not be happy with the idea of loseing their gear, I find the sentiment more then a little worrying. The last line in particular illustrates this.

What if theft was limited to 'infinite' resources; gold and items created by the Job System? Would players be more amendable to a change like this?

You could. But then the IC 'Issue' you had before isn't resolved, and we'll come straight back to this argument again but now with the precident that, hey, you can take things; why not more?

Though that's a slippery slope argument, so I'll leave that one with the one sentence, and instead return to 'what you're taking'.

billytheid wrote:

It also leads to the 'hey! I stole 100 gold from that guy!'... why would a thieves guild bother when it is obvious that half the server are multi-millionairs weighted down with priceless artifacts?

This remains the same. if anything, you're making it worse. 'Hey! I stole a Table from that guy!'. 'You won't believe what I pickpocketed from that guy. An Oak Plank!'

So really you get nowhere, and you'll still end up annoying the precious sorts. This is why, to this day, when it comes to theft on Amia - use tells and ask. The people who wouldn't be phased by being pickpocketed by the system are the same people who would likely have little issue being pickpocketed by, well, RP.

Oh I think you could do quite a bit if you focused on one specific industry. There are great RP opertunities there; interaction with groups of merchants seeking to corner a market, etc...

I'm talking about the wider impact of criminal RP here, not the random actions of an individual PC. So, you may not be able to pickpocket a PC but, with planning and DM support, you could lift their entire stock of apples, paper, iron, etc...

Through working with a DM, you can do that already. Among many other things that you can already do, as long as you go through the right channels (PMs to DMs is a good channel. [Tells] to potentially interested players is also another, good, channel)

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Through working with a DM, you can do that already. Among many other things that you can already do, as long as you go through the right channels (PMs to DMs is a good channel. [Tells] to potentially interested players is also another, good, channel)

NO NO NO NO NO NO.

Hey I LIKE my Dancer following random people and then selling the info the the opposing side. Course that only makes him a "criminal" to those that didn't want that info shared sooooo.... :twisted:

Wyjyn is correct. I agree based on arguments already made in this thread.

Scimiter wrote:

Hey I LIKE my Dancer following random people and then selling the info the the opposing side. Course that only makes him a "criminal" to those that didn't want that info shared sooooo.... :twisted:

Makes him a snitch not a criminal. As far as a criminal is concerned he's the lowest form of scum. Random Spy RP like this has the potential to destroy lot's of RP with little to no good cause aside from the aforementioned "I like". I would strongly encourage you to use this kind of info for blackmail as opposed to running to the other team and sinking a plan that people may have put huge ammounts of work into. The ease with which you can max your hide and m.s. skills just adds to this.

The info you hand over may lead to a gaggle of epic good guys runnng off to smash a comparitivly weak group of hard working bad guys. Blackmail is better and can often get you hired to do real spy work.

So, those who've worked hard at their plans and subsequently having them foiled is 'unfair'; but those whom have worked hard for their earnings and subsequently having them taken is 'fair'.

You do see the disparity, correct? Some people do quite a job when it comes to the Job System and trading, with the potential of having worked up quite 'an entire stock' that you already mentioned could be taken.

billytheid wrote:

I'm talking about the wider impact of criminal RP here, not the random actions of an individual PC. So, you may not be able to pickpocket a PC but, with planning and DM support, you could lift their entire stock of apples, paper, iron, etc...

It seems to me there's more than a touch of hypocrisy here.

billytheid wrote:

Scimiter wrote:

Hey I LIKE my Dancer following random people and then selling the info the the opposing side. Course that only makes him a "criminal" to those that didn't want that info shared sooooo.... :twisted:

Makes him a snitch not a criminal. As far as a criminal is concerned he's the lowest form of scum. Random Spy RP like this has the potential to destroy lot's of RP with little to no good cause aside from the aforementioned "I like". I would strongly encourage you to use this kind of info for blackmail as opposed to running to the other team and sinking a plan that people may have put huge ammounts of work into. The ease with which you can max your hide and m.s. skills just adds to this.

The info you hand over may lead to a gaggle of epic good guys runnng off to smash a comparitivly weak group of hard working bad guys. Blackmail is better and can often get you hired to do real spy work.

That's... pretty subjective. Espionage is a criminal activity depending on who you're spying on, so it would still fall into the purview of criminal RP some of the time. "A" criminal could have any number of opinions of spies other than "lowest form of scum"--they may very well value the information that they bring, or respect the danger of an enemy spy.

As for it destroying RP--sorry what? Traitors and spies are a fact of life. You were after realism of a sort, weren't you? Realistic fear of being robbed and all that, instead of the magical protection of PC's hard-earned gear? Well, what about realistic paranoia towards your fellows? Just because a plot doesn't go according to plan doesn't mean the RP is "destroyed". Epic Good raid is just the beginning of the end--you scatter, regroup, hold a good witch hunt, and then try again. Or maybe you're receiving this information--you plan, assemble, launch an attack, and maybe follow up. Voila, you have conflict! Is this not ideal?

Blackmail doesn't always work--it doesn't suit all characters, or may be too dangerous/not profitable enough to attempt.

BrainSplitter wrote:

So, those who've worked hard at their plans and subsequently having them foiled is 'unfair'; but those whom have worked hard for their earnings and subsequently having them taken is 'fair'.

You do see the disparity, correct? Some people do quite a job when it comes to the Job System and trading, with the potential of having worked up quite 'an entire stock' that you already mentioned could be taken.

billytheid wrote:

I'm talking about the wider impact of criminal RP here, not the random actions of an individual PC. So, you may not be able to pickpocket a PC but, with planning and DM support, you could lift their entire stock of apples, paper, iron, etc...

It seems to me there's more than a touch of hypocrisy here.

Having your plans foiled is not unfair (unless there is metagaming or something of course). I don't know that I've ever said having plans foiled legitimately is unfair.

As too the 'entire stock' comment... that is when disgression becomes the better part of valour. If someone has a truely massive stock of items then the DM watching could easily say 'you make off with what you can carry'. This may be a large amount, it may not. The key element is that what is taken is not unique or randomly obtained. It is a renewable resource if you like.

billytheid wrote:

Makes him a snitch not a criminal. As far as a criminal is concerned he's the lowest form of scum. Random Spy RP like this has the potential to destroy lot's of RP with little to no good cause aside from the aforementioned "I like". I would strongly encourage you to use this kind of info for blackmail as opposed to running to the other team and sinking a plan that people may have put huge ammounts of work into. The ease with which you can max your hide and m.s. skills just adds to this.

The info you hand over may lead to a gaggle of epic good guys runnng off to smash a comparitivly weak group of hard working bad guys. Blackmail is better and can often get you hired to do real spy work.

Certainly looks, at least to me, as though this course of action is unfair to the opposite player from your perspective; given how it's being sold in the statement.

serbiris wrote:

billytheid wrote:

Scimiter wrote:

Hey I LIKE my Dancer following random people and then selling the info the the opposing side. Course that only makes him a "criminal" to those that didn't want that info shared sooooo.... :twisted:

Makes him a snitch not a criminal. As far as a criminal is concerned he's the lowest form of scum. Random Spy RP like this has the potential to destroy lot's of RP with little to no good cause aside from the aforementioned "I like". I would strongly encourage you to use this kind of info for blackmail as opposed to running to the other team and sinking a plan that people may have put huge ammounts of work into. The ease with which you can max your hide and m.s. skills just adds to this.

The info you hand over may lead to a gaggle of epic good guys runnng off to smash a comparitivly weak group of hard working bad guys. Blackmail is better and can often get you hired to do real spy work.

That's... pretty subjective. Espionage is a criminal activity depending on who you're spying on, so it would still fall into the purview of criminal RP some of the time. "A" criminal could have any number of opinions of spies other than "lowest form of scum"--they may very well value the information that they bring, or respect the danger of an enemy spy.

As for it destroying RP--sorry what? Traitors and spies are a fact of life. You were after realism of a sort, weren't you? Realistic fear of being robbed and all that, instead of the magical protection of PC's hard-earned gear? Well, what about realistic paranoia towards your fellows? Just because a plot doesn't go according to plan doesn't mean the RP is "destroyed". Epic Good raid is just the beginning of the end--you scatter, regroup, hold a good witch hunt, and then try again. Or maybe you're receiving this information--you plan, assemble, launch an attack, and maybe follow up. Voila, you have conflict! Is this not ideal?

Blackmail doesn't always work--it doesn't suit all characters, or may be too dangerous/not profitable enough to attempt.

Another criminal would consider them a snitch if the info was about them. My issue was with RANDOM spying... I'm always ICly wary of spies, even those that work for me ICly. I also really enjoy RPing with people who play a spy PC because of all the 'fenceing' in conversation with them. You know they sell info for a living so you have to be really careful about what you say, and ever suspicious of their motives.

However, the random standing in rooms then running off and telling a whole lot of info to anyone at all without focus just feels a little inconsistent. Why take the risk of being caught spying when for all you know you're following someone having an affair or something else quite mundane?

I'm just voicing an opinion there but I did that to a few people ages ago when I had a SD spy and in hindsight it wasn't really a constructive or realistic RP move.

BrainSplitter wrote:

billytheid wrote:

Makes him a snitch not a criminal. As far as a criminal is concerned he's the lowest form of scum. Random Spy RP like this has the potential to destroy lot's of RP with little to no good cause aside from the aforementioned "I like". I would strongly encourage you to use this kind of info for blackmail as opposed to running to the other team and sinking a plan that people may have put huge ammounts of work into. The ease with which you can max your hide and m.s. skills just adds to this.

The info you hand over may lead to a gaggle of epic good guys runnng off to smash a comparitivly weak group of hard working bad guys. Blackmail is better and can often get you hired to do real spy work.

Certainly looks, at least to me, as though this course of action is unfair to the opposite player from your perspective; given how it's being sold in the statement.

You're taking this out of context and using it as a general brush to tar a topic that is not really related. Spying and the proposed idea of making Job System items and gold possible targets for theft are not the same thing.

EDIT: Having said that I must ask if anyone has anything new to add to the topic? This is turning into semantic bickering and shifting away from the intended topic.

If I were using it as a general brush to tar a topic, I would have actually broken the context thoroughly by only quoting those lines, instead of the entire post, and without subsequently addressing the fact that my statement is based upon how it looks to me, in that manner, as opposed to claiming that it is exactly what you meant.

BrainSplitter wrote:

If I were using it as a general brush to tar a topic, I would have actually broken the context thoroughly by only quoting those lines, instead of the entire post, and without subsequently addressing the fact that my statement is based upon how it looks to me, in that manner, as opposed to claiming that it is exactly what you meant.

By out of context I mean that the fairness of an action is not the topic of debate. I'll happily agree that being robbed isn't fair. I'm asking would it be better to have things that are unfair happen to everyone.

...and the question is, Do you feel that criminal RP would be possible in South Cordor, without having PvP activated, but with anything but PC guards removed to avoid that sticky situation of "metagaming NPC guards" that is a constant irritant?

Because as some of you know, South Cordor was handed over exclusively to the Adventuring Division of the Guard to handle (that being PCs, not NPCs), with the exception of the South District Prison, and right now those City Guards are only hanging around to aid in the transition as the area experiences a minor boom.

This is an open question to anyone, and honestly, unlike some of my questions, it actually isn't a loaded one!

Sorry to intrude on your back and forth, Jess and Ron, but in a way I'm kinda not sorry. :wink:

'Scool.

IMHO, it could work with the PvP Turned Off, and only PC Guards, quite effectively. Though a couple of the Guard Tools would need to be fixed for it to work effectively in some situations. In the NPC Guard Areas, you have the fallback of "Don't Metagame The Guards", however in an unguarded, but no PvP area there is nothing to stop a player outright ignoring a character's actions. Such as a character grabbing someone or shackling them, and said person wandering off casually.

Though that shouldn't be too hard, and would permit criminal RP of a sort quite viably, without letting it go insane again due to PvP settings.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yossarin wrote:

...and the question is, Do you feel that criminal RP would be possible in South Cordor, without having PvP activated, but with anything but PC guards removed to avoid that sticky situation of "metagaming NPC guards" that is a constant irritant?

I would say no, solely because of the no pvp activated. Not my roleplay really, though, but I would say no. Kind of hard to be a standover man when you cannot actually hit anyone.

Quote:

Though that shouldn't be too hard, and would permit criminal RP of a sort quite viably, without letting it go insane again due to PvP settings.

Yeah, insane in character which is one of the things people liked about Cordor South and one of the things those that didnt can avoid by not going there.

Well, some of you have read the writing on the wall and seen what I've been working on here for a long time, and that's trying to recreate or reestablish an IC situation where we can try to get away from the OOC things that cause problems, move into the things some people want, but others want with some kind of minimal regulation.

Hell or high water, it'll all be a leap of faith, anyway, but this is probably going to be my only sounding board to help me determine what options and changes I need to tinker with, since with the "South Cordor Reconstruction Project" (is anyone reading outside the fourth wall yet after a year?) complete, the time has come.

Fair warning: I wouldn't make any assumptions about what's to come, because it isn't exactly set in stone for a variety of reasons.

Given I'm aware of the end point, I'd personally suggest keep it No PvP, but otherwise largely release the reigns in regards to what you're doing Guard wise. Give the PC Guard an active thing to do, but also the means to deal with it - meanwhile giving the PC Criminals their base to work from (no longer havnig to worry about NPC Guards or Metagaming them) and work with what they want.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yossarin wrote:

Well, some of you have read the writing on the wall and seen what I've been working on here for a long time, and that's trying to recreate or reestablish an IC situation where we can try to get away from the OOC things that cause problems, move into the things some people want, but others want with some kind of minimal regulation.

Hell or high water, it'll all be a leap of faith, anyway, but this is probably going to be my only sounding board to help me determine what options and changes I need to tinker with.

I just don't get why the DMs couldnt do what parents do when their kids play a rough game and come inside crying. Cordor South was the bronx, the ghetto, harlem, the rough side of town. It blows my mind that people had OOC issues with pvp happening there and that those problems were actually listened to.

It is, maybe, a step int he right direction of crime roleplay is still desired there. However, those criminals are going to end up wanting to fight and that will be some lame dice roll pvp.

Having 'don't metagame the guards' removed as a factor would be awesome.

Personally I think most people would rise to the opertunity and go along happily with being grabbed by said standover man. If they don't then you can either screenshot it or you can ignore them.

It'll give the guards something real to do as well. They'll have to guard things.

PvP Cordor was and would still be hell. That is all.

I still remember when the area in front of Cordor was PvP open... that was hell. Random hellballs, and a lot pvp in front of guards happened there.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

TormakSaber wrote:

PvP Cordor was and would still be hell. That is all.

yes, but can you give an even remotely valid reason why the DM team seem to keep interfering whenever a style of roleplay seems to contradict what their characters want? Yeah, I am accusing you all of bias.

Why can't Cordor South be PvP? Its not the whole of cordor and people that don't like it dont have to go there in the same way that people that don't like RnB dont have to go to an RnB nightclub. What is the reason for shutting down the roleplay? Because people that never had to go to the area to begin with complain becasue they didnt get things their way? What I am reading into it is that people arent winning against the crime there, for whatever reason. Its one area, its not Cordor entire.

If you thought that a non-PvP Cordor had a lot of complaints, I'd seriously wager that PvP Cordor would and had generated ten times the complaints.

I played briefly during the time of PvP Cordor, I'm sorry.. it's ridiculous to let random magi unleash things like hellballs or other large scale magical spells.

And you complain about Southie and why was it stopped there. I am not sure of the OOC reason but the IC reason's are pretty clear if you keep an eye to the news, depending on point of view. Cordor's people had enough, and their Commonwealth gave to them a patrolled and protected South Cordor.

I imagine, if you really want to try something in Cordor and are willing to put in the time and effort, the DM's would give a fair shot. Mind, a fair shot not a guaranteed success.

Crime and Punishment: What is criminal RP on Amia?

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