AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I have been offended.

I will lessen this outrage by myself offending others by showing my disrespect to the generic american high fantasy knight and preaching the superiority of portraying stiff conservative warriors as strict conservative warriors rather than modernized self inserts barely disquised to blend in a primitive setting.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

And no...you can't RP a paladin however you want and still be called a paladin...and there simply aren't enough DMs to watch the Bloodthirsty, rapist, paladins do their dirty deeds.

Well fuck you too!

It's easy to say that everyone who doesn't play a "violent evil pally" hates the way most Paladins are played. To prove it, however, is another thing. Because, frankly, you're wrong. Most people don't have an issue with how most Paladins are player. And what you said is indeed offensive and I don't even play a Paladin. Never have.

Paladins of both varieties being argued are plenty valid. Paladin's might be confined to a small space to work with, but that doesn't mean they're all robots who act and think alike. I can see a more forgiving Paladin that ponders a bit more before acting and tries to see a bit more good in the world just as well as I can see a Paladin who is more conservative, strict and quick to act, seeing the world with a more cynical eye. Gray Guards don't happen over night. There are different style Paladins and they're valid.

Ugh... Sorry I just have to ask: What's with all this anti-American hate posts in a thread that deals with a DnD setting and specifically one class as it reads? There is no place for that.

I am unsure if WoTC's translation for the PHB, Players Guide to Faerun, or Forgotten Realms: Faiths and Pantheons translate well at all in Finland/ non-primarily English speaking countries. That being the case please forgive me if I am ignorant of what it may read as where you are from, but according to the books Paladins are defenders and warriors of light meant to, paraphrasing now to use the term, uphold the My Little Pony portions of the Faerunian setting within the dogma of their faith. There really is not much wiggle room around shirking that duty or saying "well that's wrong and not for me!" within the English version of the Text which is where I believe a number of the misunderstandings in what is being said are arising.

"Grim-Dark" is a Warhammer catch phrase, that ports best to DnD and more specifically this FR setting when applied to fallen paladins and black guards, again, when taken in context of the English WoTC texts relevant to this conversation. Dark fantasy paladins simply are not default Faerunian from the way the text reads in English. This does not mean they can't or shouldn't exist, but that they simply are not the defacto norm for the setting.

Also, as a reminder, let us please not use offensive language. I have yet to see a time when a Rape accusation, even if (I hope) meant as a joke, translates well on the internet. So, to that end, Everyone please calm down.

An interesting example of a very different but appropriate paladin:

Quote:

-You can't threaten me, I know what you are, your order, your God won't allow you to lay your hands on me, otherwise you'll fall, and you won't be able to help a soul

-You seem to be under misconception about what I am, what I do. I am a Paladin, that is true, but as a Paladin you don't fear falling... I look forward to it.

As a Paladin, I walk on a razors edge. Not between good and evil, I could never be something like you, but between "law" and "Justice". The Law I fall doesn't permit me to harm you, but I could be justified in anything I did to you in order to save innocent lives, ANYTHING!

You don't know what it is like to be me, you don't know the pain of having to store all your anger, all your fury, your sense of justice, and hold it inside you, all day every day for the rest of your life. Doing the right thing doesn't mean I get to stop all evil, I just get to trim it when it becomes over grown. The path I walk is not about vengeance, or what's right, its about moderation in the face of power, restraint and compassion for scum like you.

This is why Paladins don't fear falling. We don't spend all day looking for ways to prevent ourselves from doing evil and giving in to the darkness. We actively seek it out. Every time we face evil, we have to ask ourselves, "Is this the threat i'm going to give it all for, is this what I am going to give up my ability to help others in the future, in order to bring down now, is this the evil that I am willing to forsake my God and my Power to stop!".

What you should be asking yourself now, what you really need to be thinking about, is; "Is what I'm doing something thats goes make this guy want to fall", because you should know, that once I fall, all those rules which protect you from me are gone. No longer will I be able to be stopped by you, or by my order, or by my God. If I give everything, and I mean give everything, I will never stop. If you escape me today, I will hunt you down and grab you into the pits of hell myself. Even if that means that I have to invoke the wrath of every demon in creation, just so they throw open a pit and drag me down where I stand, because when they do dragged me down, I will make sure that my fists are wrapped firmly around your ankles and you go down with me. I want you to listen to me now, and I mean really listen, because hell truly hath no fury like a Paladin scored.

So I ask you, one last time, tell me where the other rituals are being held, or I swear to all on high that I will fall, and fall hard, just do I can show you what it is that Paladin truly keeps his code to hold back...

And the referrence to typical american high fantasy was just that, a referrence to typical high-fantasy literature, games, comics or cartoons associated with culture produced in America. I am fairly certain it works excellently as a reference to a certain kind of an archeotypical knight rather than anti-american hate speech.

I really do prefer a deeper setting than that, and see no reason why such a preferrence would not be appropriate on Amia. The same expressed rudely in pictures:

Do you see what I am desperately trying to say here?

Haha, can't believe I missed this fallacy fest.

IronAngel wrote:

Haha, can't believe I missed this fallacy fest.

You are still free to contribute.

What I have been trying to convey here is portraying my preferred kind of atmosphere and why it is not something that should be forbidden or considered particularry wrong, even though it is far from the only atmospehere I can understand being enjoyable to people.

After thinking of all this topic talking of different paladin types and rp I had a quick gander to the forgotten realms wiki paladin page. I understand this is going to be up to 4th edition but the reference I'm getting from it is not regarding mechanics, it may help to explain different attitudes to rping a paladin:-

Paladin variants
Though all paladins share a number of abilities, much of their philosophy towards battle and abilities gained from their god depend on how they choose to carry out their divine duty. Most paladins belong to one of the following practices.

Ardent paladin
Avenging paladin
Protecting paladin
Virtuous paladin

I do Silv.

Quote:

Dark fantasy paladins simply are not default Faerunian from the way the text reads in English. This does not mean they can't or shouldn't exist, but that they simply are not the defacto norm for the setting.

I do not disagree that they have potential here, nor do I disagree that a touch of a darker feel to the world would not be enjoyable. All I am asking is that we do not assume they are the norm when the lore of the setting dictates otherwise. Amia is based in FR and unless the DM team does something drastic, Dark Fantasy, in the general sense, simply is not what the server is built around. It seems to stay in line with dogmatic 3.0/3.5 FR.

CelestialDante, that is some good information, but in 4.0, a paladin is allowed to be of any alignment and can no longer fall in the traditional 2.0/3.5 sense, which makes that a very tricky/ sticky set of terms to apply to paladins as they are in previous editions of the FRC.

DustSpray101 wrote:

CelestialDante, that is some good information, but in 4.0, a paladin is allowed to be of any alignment and can no longer fall in the traditional 2.0/3.5 sense, which makes that a very tricky/ sticky set of terms to apply to paladins as they are in previous editions of the FRC.

I agree completely with this and hereby smite 4th edn. Thought it was an interesting reading on the 4 paladin philosophy arch-types.

I think you have it pretty well covered between you, Dust and some others, Silvarus.

Almost any universal statement about paladins (or any other class or anything) is bound to be false, or at a best lucky guess, because universal claims require the kind of certainty a priori we don't have. That's why it's best to maintain an attitude of "anything is possible, we'll just have to wait and see." That applies to life in general too, of course.

I don't think it's interesting to establish "the norm" very narrowly, either. Frankly we don't have enough source material to say one way or another, considering novels and gamebooks don't quite meet the academic standards of a sociological study. It's more fruitful to offer a diversity of alternatives to consider. It's simply more useful to share positive ideas about paladins rather than negative, if the aim is to improve and diversify RP. By that I mean I'd rather say what's possible than what shouldn't be done.

Paladins need codes.

As in like, actually take the time to write them out, make sure they make sense for the deity, and follow them.

If anyone actually bothers to do this, then kudos.

I suppose all the relevant information has been transferred then.

Me and Gabe wrote down something on different interests in RP for the current draft of the "What the *beep* is the Eternal Order?"-text but it turned out to be a bit too "My preferences are more refined than your preferences" so I might omit it from the final product. All it really says is that Amia has a subgroup of players who prefer low fantasy over high fantasy and try to make their ends meet in a dominantly high fantasy setting. I'll throw it at you anyways:

Quote:

There are players who enjoy to have an atmosphere and an enviroment that is appropriate for medieval history, or rather the level of technology of the era, as historical accurancy implies a bit too much. It is a place where the fairytales, myths and supersititions of the era just happen to be true, rather than false, but the society and enviroment is otherwise the same. For these kind of players the preferrable roleplay envoirment is a world that would make sense even if the myths and magic were just superstition. The fantastical elements are the spice on the setting, but the main point is a non-modern level of technological development. A good example for this would be the Parcival Legend or Dante's Inferno. Players like this often consider museum pieces to be far more beautiful than any generic fantasy art's weapons or equipment, and have similar preferences in the aspects of their roleplaying enviroment. This is what we are aiming for in this faction.

For the majority of players the main focus of the role-playing enviroment and atmosphere are the fantastical elements and they do not mind the clishes of generic high fantasy or modern mind-sets. Forgotten Realms and thus Amia is a prime example of a high fantasy setting so this latter type is obviously the norm. When players from these two groups interact, there can be great confusion unless they realize each others preferences. The point is not to say one group is better than the other, but that things like this are good to remember when the aims of the other players confuse you. If you know who you are playing with, different aims in RP are not a problem as they can easily be taken into account, but if you expect all others to belong to the same group as you do, you might end up in unnecessary confusion or conflict.

EDIT: At least the EO has a written paladin code, as do many non-EO paladins I have played with. Our internal documents (there are quite a few of them) just are kept for the members of the faction behind lock and key.

Okay rapist is rather a strong term and highly exaggerated...my apologies...but there are some paladins that are not far from that perspective.

Most Paladins have different interpretations of their dogma's and such, but most agree on some things such as preservation of life, treating others with respect(even enemies), and pure consideration.

And yes just as you are entitled to play your paladin however you feel like, you shouldn't be so offended if players who you play with do not like it.

So don't go playing however you feel like and expect no insults when it isn't inspiring nor good.

There are a lot of good paladins...but also horribly played ones that seem willing to backstab and will even go as far as to say they will stab you in the back.

Can you honestly expect me to take this kind of bull RP seriously? I can't...and I won't.

And for those who wish to throw insults that is perfectly fine....if you can't even take criticism well what makes you think you can even play a paladin at all? You can't even show manners IRL and you expect me to believe you can even pretend to show manners in game?

apoligy not bloody accepted, that is about the weakest attempt at an apoligy by someone who has just accused a playergroup of breaking server rules...and to even hint that they might be close to that?...your highly insulting and it pisses me off.

Im tempted to bring back my old paladins just to poke you in the side of the rips with a paladin that has no room for redemption, other than redemption in death.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Im tempted to bring back my old paladins just to poke you in the side of the rips with a paladin that has no room for redemption, other than redemption in death.

That would so mess up Azeriel lol

If I had to judge purely from your response I'd say you speak the words of all badly played paladins perfectly...and incidently explain why the paladins that are badly played exist at all.

BTW my apologies were not directed towards you, it was directed towards players who can play good paladins and are respected.

Please you two, calm down. We were starting to head in a good direction. Have some love for your fellow player and accept that there will always be differences and no absolutes when dealing with people. One person's RP is no better than someone else's so long as it makes them happy. (Within reason of course, but those reasons are DM enforced so why worry about them?)

Lets get back on topic, eh?

Also, I love that folks have written codes for their paladin groups! Great initiative you guys!

Could you two please drop it? There are people that don't want this thread locked, and I doubt either of you want a to have a ban for forum behaviour.

I'm perfectly calm actually...I insulted no one but those who decided to take it as an insult and then threaten me with an old paladin.

But let's face facts....I see bad paladins as actually OOC feelings dribbling down into the game. It's not the first tim I've seen it on the server and it's not the last.

A person/player chooses what their character does in game, and even though you say Dust that everyone plays differently, you should also note that on the same token not everyone will like how a person plays. I honestly don't even know why this other player is getting so defensive, since I directed nothing towards them...but I can take a wild guess.

I notice many people turn some insult that only in their own eyes they see directed towards them and turn it into an insult against the whole playerbase. Let me dispel any delusions by saying I am not insulting the whole player base....just the badly played paladins(I'm not saying ALL paladins are badly played, I mean the *badly* played ones). To me that simply means anyone who responded to the insult in fact must see themselves as the target...though I wonder why.

*edited* Also note that a paladin can be grumpy and sour and still be a paladin. Not all paladins need be nice and happy.....some can in fact still be sour about the world but keep to their edicts. But it's a mixture of both actions and thoughts that make a paladin a paladin or fallen. A sour, grumpy paladin can still respect life, and have consideration, eve though he is generally sour and grumpy.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

If I had to judge purely from your response I'd say you speak the words of all badly played paladins perfectly...and incidently explain why the paladins that are badly played exist at all.

<snip>

Let me dispel any delusions by saying I am not insulting the whole player base....just the badly played paladins(I'm not saying ALL paladins are badly played, I mean the *badly* played ones). To me that simply means anyone who responded to the insult in fact must see themselves as the target...though I wonder why.

The people you're accusing of "badly playing" their paladins are more numerous than you think, and we're perfectly justified in calling you out when you insult us.

At the risk of redundancy... What you're describing as a "badly played" paladin is in fact a well-played paladin, a paladin who is being played the way paladins are intended to be played. What you're describing as a well-played paladin is in fact a well-played cleric.

Most Paladins I encounter in game are the bossy, egotistical, and dogmatic types that see themselves as the ultimate authority. Not saying this is a *bad* way of playing, but they all seem the same to me. A little more character can be put into them in my opinion.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

There are a lot of good paladins...but also horribly played ones that seem willing to backstab and will even go as far as to say they will stab you in the back.

Can you honestly expect me to take this kind of bull RP seriously? I can't...and I won't.

Then don't take it. Kill the paladin, run from the paladin, talk shit about the paladin. But keep it all IC because your opinion on my or others' paladin and how evil or good he/she/it is OOCly frankly doesn't matter. Just so you know. The DMs and the (one) player of the character's opinions matter when it comes to Falling or what is Evil and what is Good when compared to each individual. Yours... does not.

...but I do love a good argument about whether Sam is good or not ICly. Had two just yesterday and they were fantastic! Yum. I'm beginning to love PVP.

Booboo, if you really think a Paladin is behaving poorly/acting outside their code and the DM's aren't aware, PM screenies to a DM.

Other then that, Estara's advice is honestly sound.

Grymia wrote:

Booboo, if you really think a Paladin is behaving poorly/acting outside their code and the DM's aren't aware, PM screenies to a DM.

"Bored. Let's go find some necromancer to pvp." Said in party chat.
I think it's more about the pvp happy attitude some players have.
While I do not encourage such an attitude, there's nothing I can do about it.
DMs can't do anything either, since the pvp-happy paladin follows the RP rules.

Yeah, okay, this topic has thoroughly reached its best by date.... I am dissapointed in more than a few of you and you know who you are.

Summoning a wraith and you

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