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What the Moon Brings
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 Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 0:32 AM |
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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Excuse me if this has been asked before...
In the DMG or PHB II (I forgot where) there's a section on Blackguard substituting Paladin levels for Blackguard levels, which grants additional powers.
The neat thing about doing it that way, aside from some epically horrible tale of a Paladin straying so far as to become a Blackguard, is that you become a pure Blackguard; almost like it's a base class instead of a prestige class. 10 levels of Paladin turned into 10 levels of Blackguard.
Is that possible in Amia? To be a pure Blackguard?
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 0:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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That would ... be so ... So ... awesome...
Edit - Correct me if i am wrong, But with excessive RP this could be doable... Im not giving any specifics, but theoretically you could start as a LG paladin, then slowly through different choices and actions, fall, then fall a bit further, then eventually fall sooooo hard, that you become evil.
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What the Moon Brings
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 0:45 AM |
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 0:48 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I believe that's dissalowed on Amia for balance reasons.
When you Fall as a paladin, and decide to go evil, you have to replace your Paladin levels with Figther or some other mundane class before you advance as BG.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 0:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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P-p-p-power Gamer! @ Back on Topic It is no doubt doable on a Mechanical level, But whether you may/may not turn your level into Blackguard levels, is up for debate.
Second thing im thinking of is, Paladin + Blackguard levels on the same character. The big question is, Would be paladin be able to use his/her spells?
Mechanically, yes
Lore wise, ???
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 1:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Dark Immolation wrote: I believe that's dissalowed on Amia for balance reasons.
When you Fall as a paladin, and decide to go evil, you have to replace your Paladin levels with Figther or some other mundane class before you advance as BG. I believe whats disallowed is the Paladin + BG combo. Not what he's suggesting, which is Paladin levels being replaced by BG levels. 20 Paladin becomes 20 BG. It's probably doable with Leto work. Which means it would cost DC's, and likely also require the most shit hot story you have ever written in your life. Edit: To add some light on this. With BG stuff, the things that have mostly been asked in the past is that of using Paladin & BG in a build together, or making BG a normal class at character creation. I don't think anyone has asked before if BG could replace Paladin levels. This being LETO work immediatly makes it a DC cost request, which also places it under DM governence as to who could use it, and why. Which means that if they wish to place extremely strict requirements of someone getting to do this or not, they can. This is much more applicable then simply making BG a Base Class, or allowing it to be mixed with Paladin.
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I keels u with my axe!
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What the Moon Brings
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 1:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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I wouldn't see a problem with it being a DM thing or a DC request. A pure Blackguard would have a leg up on other Blackguards by virtue of having 5 or 6 extra class levels that were original spent on obtaining requirements for the Prestige class. I just thought it would cool to have a pure Blackguard. 30 levels of unadulterated evil.  And the background story would have to be something incredible.
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762
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 1:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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The PnP paladin will lose his paladin abilities when falling to BG. The nifty paladin-BG bonuses are to make up for that.
In NwN that is not possible. An evil paladin (a la Aribeth) still has all their abilities, and that is why it is not allowed.
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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 2:30 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Selvec Darkon wrote: I believe whats disallowed is the Paladin + BG combo. Not what he's suggesting, which is Paladin levels being replaced by BG levels.
20 Paladin becomes 20 BG.
It's probably doable with Leto work. Which means it would cost DC's, and likely also require the most shit hot story you have ever written in your life. It's been stated before that BG =/= Antipaladin(a base class), no matter what fleeting references are made to being "the twisted image of the paladin." I seriously doubt anything like that would get approved. Not for the roleplay issue, as in PnP and in lore it actually makes sense, but because it would open up issues with Leto-ing in general. From what I've seen and heard, we as a server try not to Leto anything onto or into characters that couldn't be gotten from some other way. No letting humans take Arcane Archer, no elven Dwarven Defenders, no getting a prestige class before you actually have the reqs, etc, etc.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 2:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Probably is possible if you Fall and use your rebuild. It'd just take Rp + a request if the DMs are happy enough to allow it.
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 3:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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We don't generally use Leto to mess around with classes in such a huge manner.
_________________  "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 3:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Oh shivers, didn't see the 'pure BG' bit. I'd say you've got Buckley's odds on that.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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What the Moon Brings
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 4:51 AM |
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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Shucks. No displacer beast kittens and no pure blackguards. I'm running out of ideas. 
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 8:36 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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What ever did happen to the displacer beasts in the FoD?? they were cool!
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jimbono1
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 9:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England
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Making Blackguard a non-prestige class in general seems like a good idea to me, but.. I know nothing!
_________________ Khaldun Menetnashte KhalfaniVictor WilkinsonSilent2001 wrote: Jimbono1 is my favourite. ^totally not a lie or anything.
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Lutra
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 12:10 PM |
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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well..turning into a blackguard from a paladin and becoming a blackguard from a random fighter is two different thing.
The reason why Blackguard is a prestige class is that you cannot start a low level/low hp blackguard character, it needs some experience to become a blackguard.
Paladins has a different story, because they mostly begin their service between the age 6-10 as pages and they generally come out as lvl 1 paladins when they reach adult age.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 12:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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May be good lore-wise, but it's this game we need to worry about.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 14:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Lore and balance are both moot points since it's not possible by default in NWN, and Leto work or even alignment changes that enable unusual class combinations are simply not done, period. That's because it's a clear line to draw, as opposed to judging every strange build request individually.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 15:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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Correct me if I'm wrong.. but wouldn't the paladin fall widget take care of most of the Paladin bonuses that make that combo overpowered?
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 15:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Probably most of them, yes. The topic isn't bout Paladin/BGs, though, but pure Blackguards who have had all their Paladin levels Leto-changed into BG levels. That's the proper way to handle Falling into an evil faith, and that's what has precedent in D&D rules; Paladin/BG multiclasses couldn't happen because a Fallen Paladin will be rebuilt into Fighter under normal circumstances in PnP.
There are many combinations and specific builds that might be perfectly balanced and lore-sound, but we still don't do them on Amia. That's because we've made the categorical decision to stick to vanilla builds. There are no exceptions for harmless cases, because that would mean the DMs had to review every single case and determine it harmless or harmful. It's a lot of work, and there's bound to be mistakes made when you step outside the established and familiar limits of NWN balance.
You might be approved to play a Lawful Barbarian, for example. This shouldn't be too extraordinary a request. But even if you're approved, you won't get your alignment changed until level 30 and you cannot multiclass into Monk or such, because you should play by the same mechanical rules as everyone else.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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762
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 15:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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There's a paladin fall widget?? What does that do, exactly?
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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 15:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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Lore wise, a paladin Falling right into BG would only be truly applicable to paladins who turned to the monsters they once swore to defeat for power (namely demons/devils). And even then they must be reeducated which would take a fair amount of time.
There are simply too many pacts and deals fluff wise to just overwrite a whole ton of paladin levels to BG level for level. Doesn't matter how hard they try, a fallen paladin would have to learn how to become a BG which takes a goodly amount of time in game years.
Let's be honest. It's not like they could just walk up to a demon/devil and magically convert while claiming all the training to at minimum draw up the proper contracts for summoning a demon/devil. For all the research that would go into that, their god would likely have stopped granting them powers and they would have fallen not too far into the planning stages of their conversion. That or they can pull a rush job all they want and fluff wise turn out to be that succubi's play thing.
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Sven <=={o===========>
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 16:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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762 wrote: There's a paladin fall widget?? What does that do, exactly? Turns your character into a fighter with less feats and no chance.
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Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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762
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 17:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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DustSpray101 wrote: Lore wise, a paladin Falling right into BG would only be truly applicable to paladins who turned to the monsters they once swore to defeat for power (namely demons/devils). And even then they must be reeducated which would take a fair amount of time.
There are simply too many pacts and deals fluff wise to just overwrite a whole ton of paladin levels to BG level for level. Doesn't matter how hard they try, a fallen paladin would have to learn how to become a BG which takes a goodly amount of time in game years.
Let's be honest. It's not like they could just walk up to a demon/devil and magically convert while claiming all the training to at minimum draw up the proper contracts for summoning a demon/devil. For all the research that would go into that, their god would likely have stopped granting them powers and they would have fallen not too far into the planning stages of their conversion. That or they can pull a rush job all they want and fluff wise turn out to be that succubi's play thing. Blackguards are not wizards. Their powers are divinely granted, which means as long as they are fulfilling the goals of their patron, they get the goodies. Depending on the deal worked out, it may indeed be overnight. Evil deities LOVE fallen paladins and generally will snap up the chance to gain one as a divine servant. That's right out of DMG.
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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Kudark
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 18:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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IronAngel wrote: Paladin/BG multiclasses couldn't happen because a Fallen Paladin will be rebuilt into Fighter under normal circumstances in PnP. Huh? This is a new one on me. Or are you just saying they become like a fighter, because their pally shit doesn't work anymore? _________________ 
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HellScourge
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 18:21 PM |
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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Kudark wrote: IronAngel wrote: Paladin/BG multiclasses couldn't happen because a Fallen Paladin will be rebuilt into Fighter under normal circumstances in PnP. Huh? This is a new one on me. Or are you just saying they become like a fighter, because their pally shit doesn't work anymore? They loose all divine bonuses (The saves, the spells, and so) and in the end they are just a fighter with less feats. _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 19:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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No, I'm quite sure the DMG or PHB says you ought to substitute the Paladin levels of fallen characters with Fighter levels. Gotta check. And apparently there's also an option to swap them straight into BG, if we are to believe this topic. I seem to recall something like that myself. It's not really a matter debating of would/could that happen, like some people try to do here. There either is a rule for that in the books or there isn't, and I'll have to check that too.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 19:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Huh, no. Neither the DMG nor the PHB say anything about replacing Paladin levels. I guess that was wrong information. You do indeed have ex-Paladin/Blackguards who get improved BG powers based on their Paladin levels.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Kudark
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 20:32 PM |
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Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Do I get a DC for being correct?  _________________
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Pony
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 20:33 PM |
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Joined: 07 May 2005
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Yes, but for being a smart ass you lose 2 as well. 
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 20:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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762 wrote: Blackguards are not wizards. Their powers are divinely granted, which means as long as they are fulfilling the goals of their patron, they get the goodies.
Depending on the deal worked out, it may indeed be overnight. Evil deities LOVE fallen paladins and generally will snap up the chance to gain one as a divine servant. That's right out of DMG. No one ever claimed them to be a wizard. Read the fluff on fiendish servant. The bond there is not much unlike a familiar or animal companion bond, which -is- a form of pact. Furthermore it is taken as a PRC, not a swap out which means that it does indeed take time to develop/control the unholy powers granted. Also, a paladin will go thru a state of falling. There really is not an argument to be had there so I fail to see the disconnect. Can't receive divine power from Torm & Bane simultaneously after all. Conclusion: Overnight Blackguard level 1? Possibly, if the evil god really wanted you. Overnight blackguard level 10? Highly unlikely.
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 20:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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IronAngel wrote: Huh, no. Neither the DMG nor the PHB say anything about replacing Paladin levels. I guess that was wrong information. You do indeed have ex-Paladin/Blackguards who get improved BG powers based on their Paladin levels. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm wrote: Fallen Paladins
Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have.
A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.
1-2
Smite good 1/day. (This is in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level.
3-4
Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can use this supernatural ability to cure himself or his fiendish servant of damage equal to his Charisma bonus × his level.
5-6
Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6. Smite good 2/day.
7-8
Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard’s class level.
9-10
Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a Medium-size skeleton or zombie as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels. Smite good 3/day.
11 or more
A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.
The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin.
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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762
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 21:13 PM |
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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DustSpray101 wrote: 762 wrote: Blackguards are not wizards. Their powers are divinely granted, which means as long as they are fulfilling the goals of their patron, they get the goodies.
Depending on the deal worked out, it may indeed be overnight. Evil deities LOVE fallen paladins and generally will snap up the chance to gain one as a divine servant. That's right out of DMG. No one ever claimed them to be a wizard. Read the fluff on fiendish servant. The bond there is not much unlike a familiar or animal companion bond, which -is- a form of pact. Furthermore it is taken as a PRC, not a swap out which means that it does indeed take time to develop/control the unholy powers granted. Also, a paladin will go thru a state of falling. There really is not an argument to be had there so I fail to see the disconnect. Can't receive divine power from Torm & Bane simultaneously after all. Conclusion: Overnight Blackguard level 1? Possibly, if the evil god really wanted you. Overnight blackguard level 10? Highly unlikely. You are claiming he has to learn like a wizard does. That's an assumption on your part, one I don't agree with. The paladin will at some point cross a line where his patron no longer finds him acceptable, and he will fall. An evil patron can pick him up just as quickly (if he falls far enough), and if the ex-paladin is an experienced wielder of divine power, there's no reason to believe he can't handle similar powers from a darker source. Your assumption that there is a learning curve in that is unfounded. He has an empathic bond with his fiendish servant yes, but given the rest of his abilities are divinely based it is reasonable to assume that bond is as well.
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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 21:14 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Oh, haha. That's in DMG, too. I didn't read all the way through, because the first paragraphs clearly indicate the presence of both Paladin and Blackguard levels. "Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class." But it seems you can either keep your Paladin levels and get BG powers from them, or trade them in for BG levels.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 22:03 PM |
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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762 wrote: You are claiming he has to learn like a wizard does. That's an assumption on your part, one I don't agree with. The paladin will at some point cross a line where his patron no longer finds him acceptable, and he will fall. An evil patron can pick him up just as quickly (if he falls far enough), and if the ex-paladin is an experienced wielder of divine power, there's no reason to believe he can't handle similar powers from a darker source.
Your assumption that there is a learning curve in that is unfounded. He has an empathic bond with his fiendish servant yes, but given the rest of his abilities are divinely based it is reasonable to assume that bond is as well. I'm sorry, I missed the point where paladins and anti-paladin/blackguards are both not required to train themselves. At what level did you say the magical XP fairy appears and grants them new powers? There is no assumption that they must learn as they must earn levels in the PRC in order to gain new abilities. It is the truth of the mechanic. There need not be desk work, but the magic behind the ability obviously takes time to figure out and or earn. Otherwise you'd get fiendish servant at level 1 BG. Like it or not, that is a forced learning curve. It has nothing to do with opinion but rather class level and the mechanics behind XP progression. Why can't the level 1 rogue have 13d6 sneak attack? He hasn't figured it out how to use his weapon like a scalpel yet. Same goes for a divine caster. Why can't a level one paladin smite the mighty Bane? Because they haven't figured out how to channel the divine energy required to do so. They could be born a Chosen of Torm and still not have the ability to do so. PRCs demand the characters be semi-competent in related skills and talents, but if they do not learn how to use their new abilities by gaining XP for levels in the PRC, they simply won't gain any new abilities past level 1 of said PRC. A warrior suddenly doesnt get the full benefit of Weapon Master without having to take the time to get the Experience that is required to do so. Same with a Rogue that has taught himself to use the shadows to his fullest advantage. He still needs to spend time figuring out how to then apply that knowledge to summon aid or cross vast, open distances. In the case of fallen paladin Blackguards, sure, they know how to channel the divine, but their new god likely is going to force them to prove thenself worthy before doing them any favors let alone impart the knowledge of how to make a faithful servant out of a being from the lower planes. It doesn't all come for free otherwise Earning Experience has no meaning behind it. Beauty of DnD is that every mechanical number represents something.
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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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762
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 22:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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Quote: Fallen Paladins
Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have.
*snip*
11 or more
A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.
The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin. DMG disagrees with you.
_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 22:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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762 wrote:
DMG disagrees with you.
Disagrees with d20srd. I just quoted it. Also do note that it says that only applies if the paladin has 11 or more paladin levels. I figure since he doesn't gain additional blackguard bonuses after that.. a level 15 paladin could become a 10 paladin/5 blackguard because of it, keep the fallen paladin bonuses he gets.. and the 5 bonus blackguard levels. Though I don't have the DMG infront of me right now so I can't say which is which... just going by what's written on d20srd.org. And from my experience that site's about as accurate as it can get without diving into a sourcebook. So if it's wrong, it's wrong. But couldn't you just instead CORRECT the part that's wrong by writing what the DMG says about it, add it to the rest of the list if it's accurate.. and we have a nice neat list over what the Books say about Fallen Paladins. Easier to follow for everyone that way.
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 22:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Maybe I'm missing something, but that's exactly what is in your quote too, Grave.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 22:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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The DMG doesn't disagree with my argument at all. If you are swapping your PC's levels out, having reached a deal with your new god, then what you are doing is sacrificing of your PC's former life experiences and giving said experience up to your new god in return for implanted experiences and knowledge. It means that you are proving your worth to your new god by giving up your accumulated training as their enemy utterly and wholly. This experience was still earned and not pulled from some mythical source. 762, I fail to see how you are supporting your "something from nothing" stance.
*Edit: for grammar. Comment stands.*
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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
Last edited by DustSpray101 on Thu, Dec 02 2010, 23:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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762
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 23:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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...
You're arguing it is not immediate, and DMG uses that word. And yes, it is there, on page 183.
If you want to disagree with the rulebook that's your prerogative, but it is what it is.
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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 23:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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didn't read topic, will answer OP first: Yes it is "possible" with Leto ,to leto a character into a pure level 30 blackguard. Will we do it? no, because that involves letoing class abilities and feats and we are strictly against that on all counts. Sorry. Reading topic: Re: Paladin/BG multiclassing. Yes, it works. Yes, when you turn in levels of Paladin you IMMEDIATELY convert them to Blackguard levels. This allows you to advance further in Blackguard right away and become an immediately fallen plot dramatic scion of evil power. BUT: You also get bonus blackguard abilities based on how many Paladin levels you KEPT. So very often it's a balance between having the extra abilities from maintaining Fallen Paladin levels vs having immediate gratification and instantly levelling up to however high in Blackguard. This is how it works, end of story. But it's all moot, since we won't do it in game to a PC via Leto. 
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Thu, Dec 02 2010, 23:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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I'm taking the counterpoint to your "There is no learning curve. This is automatic always and forever." (Paraphrasing here.) It is not a 'something from nothing' transaction, 762. It is either learning new things or forgetting old things in favor of being implanted with the knowledge of new things. Your toon won't shoot up in HD by becoming a BG from Paladin which is what you seemed to be getting at when you said: 762 wrote: Depending on the deal worked out, it may indeed be overnight. There is no overnight: "And now suddenly your auto HD 10+ whatever you had been!" for taking BG PRC as a fallen paladin.
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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Dec 03 2010, 0:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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He didn't say you gained free hitdice, just that the "Transaction" is immediate, 1 level for 1 level basis.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Fri, Dec 03 2010, 0:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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Ah, then I misunderstood completely. 
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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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762
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Posted: Fri, Dec 03 2010, 0:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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lolz. Yes, it's one for one, not a gain in HD.
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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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