Aha, so it's Mahtan I have to grill. Mahtan, come over here! Can you be a bit more specific? I searched Elves of Evermeet for every mention of "Solonor" and "archer" and came up with no connection. Not that I expected to, because Elves of Evermeet is 2e and Arcane Archers didn't even exist back then.

I can't get into the Elven Netbook/Elves Of Faerûn for whatever reason, but the Prestige Class index doesn't even include Arcane Archers. The closest match would be the "Solonoran Bowlord" that I've never seen in any canon source. The Elven Netbook is full of homebrew, anyway.

I doubt that later sources would've added new restrictions on a Prestige Class introduced in the DMG, of all places. It doesn't seem smart design policy. I also disagree with your interpretation of elven abilities and the Drow. Of course elves thank the Seldarine for everything they have, but that's not to say the gods literally handed it all to them. Refrain from divine excuses whenever there's a mundane explanation available, IMO. It's part of elven culture and physiology. Why would the Drow have lost it? The charm of the Drow is not that they lost everything, became primitive and had to create a new culture from scratch. On the contrary, I like the idea that they kept much of what they'd known on the surface (Ilythiir was one of the most advanced kingdoms, after all) but millenia of isolation and evil ways twisted their arts almost beyond recognition. Just like Drow surely have their own unique mockery of Bladesingers, I bet they also have a deformed tradition of Arcane Archery that traces back to Ilythiir, even if it's done very different from modern surface elf Arcane Archery.

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So So. Then my original hypothesis was correct, It 'is' possible to steal the knowledge of Arcane archery! You just need to some some elven connection...!

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Not really. What they're doing is having a debate about it. DM's have final say.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

I don't really know what you mean by "steal" anyhow. The class has prerequisites. If you meet them, you can take it. If you don't, you can't. Amia doesn't have any additional requirements.

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They could in theory, but chances are it would be a Crossbow-based class. When they were banished underground, Drow adapted their way of life to their new surroundings and crossbows became for them what bows are to the surface elves (Drow of the Underdark, Monster Manual). Due to the relatively confined spaces found in the Upper and Middle Dark, and while there is nothing saying that they don't likely take bows as trophies, practical use of them in everyday adventuring/military life would be severely limited at best to large open caverns.

Otherwise, I dare any of you to haul a 6 to 7 foot tall bow into any existing cave today and hit a target with any full ranged accuracy while standing in a tunnel. A 3 to 5 foot long shortbow, while easier to carry, would require you to crouch in order to get the arc needed for a distance shot. Then again, this is a game and reality has little to do with it.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I've heard this argument dozens of times. I don't really buy it, to be honest. I've never read of drow using regular crossbows any more than anyone else does. Tiny hand crossbows are mentioned as a typical drow speciality: small weapons you can easily conceal and use to shoot poisoned bolts at close range. They're not weapons of conventional warfare. I may be wrong here, but I don't think drow have any strong preference for light and heavy crossbows over other ranged weapons. (I need to check those sources you mentioned, though. Got pages memorized, by any chance?)

Concerning size, I don't see why dragging a longbow with you in the Underdark is any more difficult than doing so in the thick underbush of Amia Forest. Nobody seems to have any issue with woodland rangers using longbows, though. The proper longbow is pretty silly as an adventurer weapon in the first place, but the NWN version is pretty small. I'm not sure about the physics of it, but I'm pretty sure you'd also need the same arc for a long distance shot whether you're using a crossbow or a regular bow (especially since we have magically enhanced composite shortbows which pack quite a punch). And imagine the typical PnP scenario where bows are used: the fighter kicks in a dungeon door and steps out of the way while the archers let loose their arrows into the enemies on their surprise round, before the party enters melee. Whether you're in the Underdark or in a typical adventure dungeon seems irrelevant to this use.

Besides, I think people have the wrong idea about the Underdark. It's not some tiny caves and tunnels you have to crawl through. There's that too, but the areas inhabited by drow and other civilized races are generally enormous caverns and hallways so tall and wide you might not see across or up at the ceiling. It's an entire world down there. These are the typical sites of warfare, I bet. When you're defending your stalagmite fortress from attackers on a vast plateau, you're going to appreciate a long-range weapon.

As far as canon references go, Valas Hune uses a shortbow in the WotSQ series and another warrior of Menzoberranzan uses what I think is a longbow in the first book, Dissolution. I don't remember anyone using regular crossbows. That's not to say you're wrong about them: I bet many drow use them, too. But it's nothing as extreme as people make it out to be.

Either way, the sum of source material on drow shows that while there may be characteristic preferneces the subrace shares on average, there's no monoculture. Most concepts probably exist in some capacity. I imagine Arcane Archers are such a niche, probably in large cave cities with lots of warfare or in cities close to the surface who often raid there. The art may be preserved and practiced in only specific houses in some cities, and I don't imagine it's anything of a popular sport. But for those who want to play drow AAs, the justification is surely there.

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Before I continue, Merry Christmas everyone!


They prefer hand crossbows to be exact, but with NWN, I can see light crossbow being the substitution. Edonil still boasts the best one in the module to the best of my knowledge. To simplify: Hand Crossbows are their racial weapon of choice. These are elves that don't get a hard-on from 6-7 feet of curved wood and large quivers, but rather from putting a small five inch barbed piece of poison-treated wood into you as deep as they can.


Composite longbows are even more difficult to carry in confined spaces. More so if it is not re-curve and simply relies upon pulleys. Elves are assumed to be in the trees firing down, or in a clearing firing out when using the massive bows. Shortbows are more meant for the running through the underbrush as they are easier to wield, but that comes down to if you want to RP close to physical limitations of a weapon (which sadly most folks simply do not do). I can name 3 areas in the UD in which a Longbow is practical, but again that just boils down to player preference and RP style.

Appreciate, most definitely, but it is rare to find a settlement that isn't better defended by other means. I think you are confused with your geography of the world below. See page 211 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for geography of the Underdark, or better yet, check the FRCS book so aptly named: Underdark (and oddly enough has a page advertising NWN:HOTU).

Most UD warfare, as it is described, takes place either in the severely confined spaces between buildings (assuming this is to mean House warfare) or in the confined tunnels that span the greater portions of the Upper and Middle Darks where ambush/stealth/cunning are what determines victory. Victories are won by deterring all-out assault or heading off attacks in the corridors that lead to major establishments (Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5, pg 42-44). Cities have walls, etc. but the guards are armed with crossbows according to Drow of the Underdark, both ADnD and 3.5.

This is actually false. The sum of source material shows that there is indeed a monoculture in Lolthite City-States. Their society is highly developed and roughly follows the same uniform 'standards' in each city-state, beginning with training in weapons meant for local patrols into the surrounding passages that crisscross the Upper and Middle Darks. It is the racial ranged weapon for Drow and little shows them choosing anything other than it except on rare occasion. Personally I can imagine that the only deviations from this norm are typically found amongst surface raiders or the matrons (mostly as no one is ballsy (read as: dumb) enough to tell a matron: 'Malla ilharess, your bow makes you look like a fumbling pansy down here').

Well said. Drow raiding the surface often or perhaps a military outpost near an entrance to the surface would likely have a stockpile of 'confiscated' trophy weapons. It would also be advantageous for Drow raiding the surface to use bows and cover their skin so as to confuse a human settlement into believing that elves are actually attacking them as opposed to Drow. The niche exists, it is just highly unlikely to be the standard weapon used by guards/house soldiers/defenders in Edonil or L'Obsul let alone drow adventuring in the depths of the world around those locations.



If you want canon, this was written by Ed himself for AD&D. Crossbows are the ranged weapon of choice used by Drow, simple as that. But, as we are 3.5 I'll list the reference pages for you in Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5.

~Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5, pg 4: Introduction depicts extensive use of crossbows by a group of a dozen common soldiers.

~Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5, pg 36: Drow Racial traits have dropped the Elven Proficiencies in favor of Hand Crossbow, Rapier, and Shortsword.

~Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5, pg 68: Cavestalker PRC: A class made specifically for adapting rangers to the Underdark, awarding them with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Hand Crossbow.

~Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5, pg 159: Chart 6-1 outlines fighting/moving in "Cramped Spaces." "Awkward" and "Crawl-navigable" are the two in which it is explicitly stated that the only weapons able to be used are crossbows.

~Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5, pg 160-172: With exception of Psi-blade, Eldritch Blast, and Magic Missile... Crossbows are the standard ranged attack for all listed sample NPCs.

~Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5, pg 184: In the included sample adventure, the 'Arcane Guards' as they are called sling spells and use crossbows.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Can elves dream in reverie or do they need to enter the full sleep mode?

I'd say it's possible, but much more likely to happen in actual sleep. Reverie is mainly reliving past memories and experiences, not exactly creating new ones, I believe.

I don't believe there is a strict canon answer but I see no reason why they couldn't. It sounds like the most meaningful way for priests to recive visions and such from their
respective gods.

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...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"

Of course they can dream. Sehanine Moonbow is the Elven goddess of dreams.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Well yes, my elf venerates Sehahine so I want to incorporate that into his concept somehow. I know they can dream but whether they need to full sleep or can just do that in reverie. Oh, and I made that concept before I watched 'Inception'.

Elves never sleep as we know it, they only reverie so yeah they can dream in reverie too.

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...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"

Indeed, Elves don't sleep. That's why the passage says Sehanine Moonbow watches over the dreams of the elves, keeping them from harm while in reverie. Sehanines Moonbows passage never makes mention of Elves sleeping at all, and for good reason.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Thanks for those quotes. Alright, I accept that Drow in the listed cities seem to use crossbows more than other ranged weapons. It's a drow theme that was heavily emphasized in game supplements. But still, I maintain that you can't compare the NWN light crossbow to the drow hand crossbow. They're different in function: a hand crossbow bolt would probably just sting you a bit if it hit you in the thigh, before the poison did its work. A light crossbow would have more range and power, shooting right through your leg. One works due to poison, the other is a weapon of physical force. Most of your examples concern hand crossbows, and that probably wouldn't be a viable weapon for Arcane Archery even if it was modified.

Either way, I think the "cramped space" argument is pretty contrived. If we're talking about ranged weapons with similar purpose (because hand crossbows are their own niche and comparable to throwing knives rather than bows), I don't see how a shortbow is any better than a large (light or heavy) crossbow. Assuming you have a space of about 2x2 metres, you can shoot a shortbow no problem. The Underdark is probably no more cramped than regular dungeons, and dungeons are the primary site of adventure for surface PCs too, including archers. The patrols you described carried javelins, too. You need more space to use those. Drow have halberds, spears, greatswords and other sorts of large weapons, and they ride huge lizards or spiders. I don't see why bows would pose any greater of a problem than this stuff.

Recent material, in novels especially, shows drow using a large variety of weapons. Of the two warrior characters in the WotSQ series, one uses a greatsword and dwarven plate, the other uses a shortbow. Two house guards hunting the protagonists in the slums of Menzoberranzan use longbows to shoot down at them from rooftops. Even if rapiers, shortswords, light armor and hand crossbows are the norm in drow military, I don't think that should be taken any more strictly than other racial archetypes. For some reason, people treat the drow more strictly than other races, and forget that adventurers (PCs) are not the norm. Waterdhavian Guard and Watch officers certainly have uniform equipment, but that doesn't mean PCs from Waterdeep would conform to that expectation. Hin use slings, but no one would blink at a Lightfoot throwing knives. Elves like longswords and thinblades, but there are hundreds of elven adventurers with maces and axes out there. And so on. I doubt drow adventurers with shortbows and warhammers are any less likely than dwarves with shortswords.

In summary, you're probably correct about a preference for crossbows (even if we keep in mind the difference of a hand crossbow and a regular one), but I wouldn't go so far as to say other choices are unlikely or that the niche drow AA tradition would have adapted to crossbows, if it exists.

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Says the Wiki at least, Elves of Cormanthyr doesn't mention that.

Sting you a bit? Let me fire a steel quarrel into your thigh and you let me know just how little it stung....

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Hehe. The damage on a Tiny hand crossbow is only 1d2, though. If it's of the Diminutive size category, the damage is 1. I've always imagined them as small toys that shoot tiny quarrels which barely sink into flesh and go just deep enough to release their poison. They're not viable weapons without the poison.

That said, I guess even 1 HP damage is a lot to a commoner.

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Checked it. The Wiki is correct, that's what it says on page 322 of Forsaken House.

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For the size argument I suppose it is to each their own. NWN models for them are arguably rather tiny in comparison to their actual sizes.
Otherwise as stated: Drow of the Underdark, ed 3.5, pg 159: Chart 6-1 outlines fighting/moving in "Cramped Spaces." "Awkward" and "Crawl-navigable" are the two in which it is explicitly stated that the only weapons able to be used are crossbows. Space simply would not allow for reloading of a bow or other weapon.

As for damage dealt, a hand crossbow for a Medium Sized creature can dish out 1d4+modifiers. Its like getting hit by a poisonous magic missile every time one thunks home. Not pleasant I imagine.


I'd venture a guess that those "Arcane Guards" were about as close to it as any would typically get to an AA native to Drow culture without outside influence of either their surface cousins nor tricking the couple 'good' drow AAs into lending them their secrets. Then again, I am unsure when in racial history Arcane Archery developed so it very well could have been before the Drow expulsion.

Build wise, an "Arcane Guard" looks like a 5/2 ratio of 5 Wizard for every 2 levels of Fighter. If they followed this path and did not look for at least one epic spell, at ECL 30 they would be 20 Wizard to 8 Fighter with a love for hand crossbows and spiked chains.

To be honest, that would actually be an interesting challenge to port into Amian format and see how that would play out if they focused in light crossbow and ran entirely with stock Edonil items and local UD drops... I wonder if it can be done.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

The d20 SRD says tiny hand crossbows deal 1d2 damage. If they're larger in size (such as a medium-sized creature might use) they can deal more damage, but I thought the drow hand crossbows were specifically tiny things you could hide in your pocket when you go to town. I'm not sure about this, though.

I guess it's true about really cramped spaces if the rules say so (though realistically reaching for a bolt on your back, doing all the furious winding required for loading a crossbow and aiming it wouldn't be much easier than firing a shortbow a short distance), but that's situational. In cities, in large battles or when hunting large beasts, I can definetely see the merits of using longbows. In normal, walkable tunnels it would be just as useful as on your regular dungeon delve, and every adventure party has an archer. That said, I guess we agree on the big picture: small crossbows seem to be the more likely choice for a drow. I just think it's emphasized too much, considering every race and human regionality have their typical weapon recommendations but adventurers still tend to use unusual stuff.

I'm not sure about arcane archery, because it's a 3e invention. I know that bladesingers existed before the Descent and that's why I think some perverted version of the art exists among the drow still. The idea that old elven traditions are practiced in a twisted and deformed state among the drow is just a cool idea and fits the ultimate drow theme, IMO. Just like their physical form deteriorated in the Underdark, so did their art, magic, warfare and ethics. In my mind, the drow aren't a new alien culture but a ghastly reminder of what they once were and where elven culture might end up again if ever they became as vile as the Ilythiiri. Since there's no definite source on this that I'm aware of, it does boil down to taste.

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I checked all these books and none of them mentioned Elves can sleep:
Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves
Elves of Evermeet
Races of the Wild
Race of Faerun
Monster Manuel I

For what it's worth, I checked these books and none of them mentioned Drow can sleep:
2nd Edition Drow of The Underdark
3.5 Drow of The Underdark
Drizzt Do'Urdens Guide to the Underdark


However, the book "Menzoberranzan" does mention Drow sleeping multiple times:











There are multiple other references to Drow sleeping in this book. However, of note, they don't mention Drow reverie, so it could be some miss-speak, but who knows. It is interesting that those priestess were made to sleep with a poison though. Where did the immunity to sleep spells and effects go? O.o

The only place I saw anything about Elves (and not Drow) sleeping is in the book "The Complete Book of Elves":



However, this book isn't realms specific and it's 2.0. Furthermore, I've noted that these "The Complete _____" books are full of contradictions to realms specific stuff. For example, "The Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings" claims that Gnomes are nomadic and that Hin are homebodies. In the realms, it's pretty clear that it's the other way around usually. That's just one of the major contradictions in that book too. So, personally, I don't trust those books all that much after realizing all these contradictions. I only like them for the stories and other fluff type stuff.

So, while no lore book says Elves sleep, besides The Complete Book of Elves, and while I dislike using novels as sources, I suppose it -is- possible. Unless DM's say otherwise, I suppose you can say they sleep. Although it's said to be a rare thing in "The Complete Book of Elves."

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

You're right, no doubt. It's not supposed to be the norm, and introducing it in a few sources was probably a mistake in the first place. The incident of the sleeping elf in Forsaken House was that she was a beaten and ill prisoner lying in a cell, so I guess she was simply too weak to stay awake. This sort of sleeping seems sensible to me.

I don't know or remember the source right now, but I think it's said that Drow don't reverie because their lives are too shitty and horrible to reminiscence. I'm not sure if it's directly stated or assumed that they sleep, instead. While I am sure about remembering this, I am not at all sure what the original source is. So somebody may have been BSing me.

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I recall that as well, but not sure where it's from. Something about the average drow not being able to find the "inner peace" necessary to enter reverie and relive their memories. Makes sense, though. Why would you, when all of them are paranoid reflections of who you killed and the fear of being killed yourself?

The whole argument about there not being enough space in the underdark to use a bow is rather undermined by the inclusion of the spear thrower as standard equipment.

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Just regurgitating what the books say, Didi. Keep in mind the edition as well. It has since changed to Rapier and Hand Crossbow.


As the UD developed into a location more foolish folks actually -wanted- to go, the spaces and such evolved as well, turning what had been huge open caves reminiscent of a darker version of Jules Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth into something with much less open spaces. Do the research yourself and you should see what I mean.

Caverns still exist, sure, but they are way more cluttered than they had been previously and few and far in between. Pay attention the next time you are traveling in the UD to just how far one area is from another and just how long it took you to get from point A to point B. Sure a number of places on Amia are depicted as open enough to use bows (the cave with all the glowing fungus for instance) but lore wise there really shouldn't be all too many. To this end Amia seems to be an exception, not the FRCS norm.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Somehow I think throwing a javelin takes less room than an 8 foot tall longbow needing to be arced.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

That's from the book "Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide" which is 4th Edition and therefore not true to us. That book is the successor to the 3.5 "Player's Guide To Faerun," which makes no mention of Drow sleeping.

It is curious though, that Drow of the Underdark 2.0 and 3.5, Drizzt Do'Urdens Guide to the Underdark and Menzoberranzan all make no mention of reverie. But then, on the other side of the coin, you have all these race books shoving Drow in along with Elves which would pretty much suggest Drow rest is at the very least similar to that of the Elf, if not identical.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

4th Edition is our Hitler clause. Just because there are shared views doesn't outright make it wrong or incorrect, I'll remind you. Some of the lore(while not a lot, but some) has been kept over from previous editions, and I believe the issue of elves sleeping is one of them. The particular thing I read I recall reading several years ago, so it was not in 4th edition. If not in an FR book, at least in Core, and in that case, if FR makes no contradiction of it, I believe our policy is to say it sticks.

But again, I cannot recall where I read this. But I am ninety-nine and three-tenths that it was not a 4th edition source. Mainly as I own none nor do I read any, except when I read FRwiki to search for contradictions I find from the few 3rd and 3.5 ed sources I own.

Unless a DM says otherwise about specific pieces of lore, 4th edition means absolutely nothing on Amia. That much has been made pretty clear by the way DM's have spoken of it time and again.

If you can find the source, post it up. I'm curious to read it.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Of course, but my point was I read it in a non-4e source, so whether 4e confirms or denies, it truly doesn't matter in relation to Amia. Either way, I'm not making the claim off of the 4e lore, I'm making it off of a yet rediscovered source. If 4e got it from the source I read way back in the day, good for it, it's still crap altogether, if not, who cares, it's still crap altogether. I am currently looking for the article, but the interwebs are a series of tubes and you can't just dump a truck on them.

What DI said. It goes further back, because I haven't read any new lore in the 4e era and I remember this from my drow days years ago. It could be from the RAS novels. I guess both options are viable. I doubt elves and drow are physically unable to sleep, but it just wouldn't make much sense because Reverie is twice as effective. Of course, the suppressed wishes of the subconscious have no way to be fulfilled without sleep, especially with the dominance of the superego typical to elves, so I bet they're a neurotic bunch. Freud disapproves.

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I have yet to see a longbow be roleplayed as an eight foot tall weapon. If this is the case, using one in many of Amia's dungeons should be banned. If you are going to quote and use one part of lore in one place to prove a point, it surely should be used universally. If drow cannot use longbows because they are 8 foot tall, then no one should be able to carry a longbow through any door or passageway.

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NWN does a poor job of depicting the longbow's proper size. It is understandable why, then, most players whip it around like its no body's business. I also cannot entirely fault them for wanting to snag the 1d8 longbow over the 1d6 shortbow base damage, but that comes down to a matter of Role Play/Lore/Mechanics.

Otherwise, no one said they are banned anywhere. Only DM's can make that call.
((in reference to the UD that is))
As usual, when deviating from the norm, the challenge falls to us as players to justify the reason why a toon chooses to break away.

Here are some quick, simple examples for folks. Please get more original though:

Easy for Females as no one will say "Malla Ilharess, your choice of weapon makes you look like a pansy." That or they can always claim that it is for use in better understanding their true enemy. Females, check.

"I, a soldier of our great magthere, took this trophy bow from a slain darthirii and intend to use it to spread a web of chaos upon the surface and prey upon the weaknesses of those that cower above." Males, check.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Regarding Spells:

Is it assumed possible to somehow 'Pull' the damage to be non-lethal, or would it require specialist training or practice?

Pulling the actual damage? I'd think not. A 1000 degree fireball on your body is still 1000 degrees of fire. And a Metoer smacking into your chest at 300mph is still a primordial bullet.

But now pulling the actual spell, I could completely see. Maybe you hold back that fireball a little, maybe say you aimed slightly off to the side where the person gets just enough of it to cause them to go into fugue-coma that comes in the wake of extraordinary bodily damage. Maybe you aim the Meteors the same way as well. ...Death spells are a little bit harder to reason... I mean the actual spell's effect is to cause -death-.

In the long run, and to stop my rambling, I'd say pulling damage, no, pulling spell, yes. Either case, the effect is the same.

Mitigating the aftermath by "aiming" wouldn't require any special training, as anyone can aim their spell, which is why I recommend it. But I'd think actually causing the spell to be less hot/cold/damaging would require some sort of skill. After all, metamagic feats are their to show you're manipulating the spell to be hotter/colder/more damaging, why wouldn't it go for the opposite?

There is a Metamagic feat that turns damage into nonlethal.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Ah doi. I will look over my books for the feat then, but if anyone can remember the book in it I'd appreciate any aid in finding it.

Update: I'm apparently a goof, realized where the feat is. *nods*

I have a LG cleric that worships Horus-Re, and I'm wondering what stance he would take on Mummies. They are undead, but I don't know if mummies are part of the Molharundi (sp?) culture or not because it seems it is directly based off the culture of Ancient Egypt.

Somewhat off topic question maybe: When Zolok prays to Horus-Re, he recieves nothing. Some yellow text appears saying that Horus-Re has no presense. I'm having trouble understanding why this is. Perhaps there is a reason behind this that is lore-related.

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If you put "Horus-Re" into your Deity blank, then you won't get anything from it, I'm guessing. The system recognizes the deity as "Horus Re", without the hyphen. Just get a DM to fix it for you in game.

Dealing with your first question, I believe mummies are a sanctioned part of Mulhorandi culture. Royal mummies for that Pantheon are divinely permitted and accepted undead, sort of like how Baelnorn are for the Elven Pantheon: great ancestors to be respected for guarding the sacred resting place of their family.

They'd still want to smack any other sort of undead, I believe, as they'd be seen as illegitimate abominations that came about by evil, not religious tradition.

Meet my mulan in Djedet sometime. Osiris makes use of undead to some degree, but usually undead are a no-go in Mulhorand. I am not sure at the top of my head if there are 'sanctioned' undead in Misthan right now.

You got the 'Old Empires' pdf?

For the AA stuff, I forget exactly where it is, but I read it in one of the Elves of whatever books for FR. I have been given sources of it too and apparently other DMs like Mach have seen the same lore somewhere. Jud mentioned it as well. I do not know the exact source.

But its been put in IC and already has been told to others. And people have pulled things IC saying their Drow are forgiven and what not IC because of Solonor giving them the ability. When asked OOCly what they are talking about they have given the same answer here.

I see it like Bladesingers. Drow can not be Bladesingers. When I researched the class in various class books, I think complete warrior had them listed? I am going off memory as I type this. But those had said that drow lost the ability because elven classes are tied to their bloodlines basically.

Drow in terms of blood are not elves, so they can not take such classes.

Besides, classes have quite a bit of changes from PnP to NWN and even more on our Server. We can do whatever we like with them really, but I am trying to keep things explained best I can for what makes more sense.

We are writing up new classes for those drow AA to RP as so it doesn't conflict and sound so stupid. They will not RP as AA even though they have that class because it will represent something else for them. Special ones for good and evil drow.
Heck if there is ever a time for updating the hak I can even make one for UD drow that use Crossbows.

As for "stealing" elven prestige classes and arts, no you can not. Just like no one but elves can learn Elven High Magic. Drow may have variants of such things. But they are not the same.

And that's the ruling the DMs have collectively set here going over options. We've had multiple changes to classes. If now it just because mostly house rules to make it more clear, we will stick with that.
And there is no tiering with our solution we came to, the classes are just differently taught with new names. The issue comes with those that actually ICly learned AA from surface elves and not just taking the class because its cool, which 99% of them are. So, for them its just sure they thought they learned it that way, but really in their effort tapped into something else. Lame explanation but its the best thing I can come with. And I'd rather this than just say all elven classes can be learned by drow or Amia's Outsider Elves. (Which also due to blood and mechanics can't learn AA) I want it to be "They can not take special Elven race required classes at all". Not, "They can't take any special elven classes, except...."

If I don't respond to this often its because I am probably busy and not reading it or not feeling like debating these things since everything I put here is already been discussed by the team and being worked on.

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Specifically Mulhorandi allow Mummies to protect the tombs of the dead.

By Mulhorandi reasoning humans are made of three parts. The Ba and Ka components of the soul and the corporeal body.

The Ba component and corporeal body remain linked even after death and the priests of Osiris are purposed to calm the Ba component after death. The Ba and physical component are then magically warded to -rise- after death should anyone enter the tomb in which it is buried. These mummies are lawful neutral and possess none of the negative abilities that a standard dnd Mummy would possess. So no ability drain on-hits or the like.

Opposing this Set attempts to corrupt the wards and enrage the Ba

Priests of Osiris can call upon numerous numbers of these Mummies during times of upheaval or desperation in Mulhorand. The difference between these Mummies and your standard evil Mummy is that the Ba component of the soul is cogent and sentient and will return to rest when-so ever it feels its served its purpose.

Faiths and Pantheons
Powers and Pantheons
Lost Empires of Faerun
Forgotten Empires of Faerun

All you need for your Mulhorandi lore.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

The thing to remember though, is that undead mummies are not at all common place. The Mulhorandi dead are usually mummified -- obviously -- and so mummies are plentiful, but undead mummies aren't plentiful. Osiris awakens the mummified bodies of the dead when a graverobber or anyone else tries to desecrate their resting place. So it's not like you'll see a priest of Horus-Re or Osiris or Nephthys or any of the others with a mummy next to them to help them guard or patrol. It's not like that at all. The dead are almost "programmed" by Osiris to defend their own honor, in a way. The only other time the undead are sanctioned by Osiris -- and therefore okay by Mulhorandi law -- is when they're risen to defend the Mulhorandi people when times are truly desperate. And I'm sure that means when things really are very very very desperate, not just kind of desperate.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Desperate as in entire cities are burning yes and even then its very, very limited.

That said.

Priests of Osiris are occasionally sanctioned to control undead. I've used the spell myself on one of the Mummies in the tombs in Khem and RP'ed returning it to a restful peace. I wouldn't use it for combat, although I see no reason why you couldn't use one.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Is this a new rule, or just the private views of DMs?

On Amia, we've struggled not to let private views dictate how everyone should play. That's not to say anything goes, but that within the game mechanics and some parametres of the setting there are alternative interpretations, and the DMs have chosen not to enforce one viable interpretation over another. That's an important part of the transparency, professionalism and democratic nature Amia is renowned for.

As for the lore, I doubt it has basis in FR. I looked up the major sources where you would expect to find such information, and came up with nothing. Heretics can be AAs just as well, never mind Solonor. The only reference that remotely supports your conclusion is that Arcane Archers are typical worshipers of Solonor. If you read mythology, you'll find that most divine gifts to men are not contingent on their continued worship. Rather, the gods teach skills to man (or man steals them from the gods), but once it's known to mortals it becomes theirs. Mortals get divine knowledge and become a bit more godlike, so to speak. In FR, Oghma gave mortals language, Gond gave them fire and smithing, Corellon gave the bladesong to elves, and I guess you might say Solonor gave them Arcane Archery. This doesn't mean they're actually contingent on the continued favor of those gods. Once a gift is given, it can't be taken away. It's good and valid mythology, but you shouldn't translate IC myths directly into OOC mechanics. What you're doing is pretty much the D&D equivalent of calculating the age of Earth from Biblical family trees.

So while it's certainly possible for you to homebrew something completely new, I don't see why you would want to if it means stepping on a lot of toes, giving up a part of what defines Amia and not really coming up with any more sensible an explanation. Drow are elves mechanically, as things like Favored Enemy show. Drows can take the AA PrC. Planetouched elves aren't and can't. You're not making things simpler by saying otherwise. When in doubt, go with the mechanics.

There's no contradiction here, no matter what you've role-played IC. Of course PCs might believe it's a blessing from Solonor. Of course they will say drow don't understand it; Kalliniel insists that only an honorable and goodly elf can ever do the Bladesong, even if I know that's wrong. (Neither Races Of Faerûn nor Complete Warrior say anything about Drow not being able to take the PrC, and I've seen nothing like that in the sources I listed on the previous page. And even if it were true, the Bladesong technique isn't reduced to that one PrC.) It's wonderful that our PCs don't know game mechanics. And as you said, you're invalidating a lot of RP if you suddenly say no drow has ever been an AA. These things are better left ambigious, because a PC really couldn't know for sure.

When you say you're working on a Drow variant for Arcane Archers, do you mean you're actually planning special powers and are already in the process of writing an article? I hope you'll submit your ideas to players for feedback before making them normative, because I'm sure there's a lot of knowledge and good ideas in the collective imagination of the playerbase. If you don't actually have anything planned yet, I bet I'm not the only one who'd like to share ideas on what the remnants of a drow AA tradition might look like. I don't mean to step on your toes or anything, I'm just really interested in this stuff.

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Again, mechanically they still can take it. The lore is sketchy as most things in FR. I don't care if you go and bring me a signed paper from Ed Greenwood saying otherwise. Bladesingers can not ever be Drow. Once upon a time there were Dark Elven Blade singers that were from Illythiir, but they lost all that power when they became Drow. Can they ever get that power back? Nothing says they can, yet we are actually still trying to get classes that may mechanically be similar so they can. Since the old ways are lost to them. Sure they can fuse magic with bladework, but that is not the Bladesong. There is a wall between what Drow can pick and what Elves can. I don't like these holes in the wall where Drow can play elven classes if they pick this one and Elves can pick Drow Classes because of this one. (Hypothetical since NWN has no Drow only classes) Drow are not classed as elves in terms of classes they can take. Favored enemy sure because its more about physical structure and location of vital organs.

Mechanically you can be a Drow Cleric or Corellon. Which is not right at all. Mechanically Shadowdancers can go through walls and is backed up by its PnP counterpart. Try to SJ through things here and you die and lose the ability. So please do not throw in if mechanics allow it is fine.

I've already talked to just about all the Drow AA that did RP their way to learning and even they were happy to hear that work was being done to clear this lore issue up. If it was just Arcane shooting arrows, anything capable of level one spells could learn it. But they can't, its Elves only.

And Iron, I am not going into debates over this with you because I seen how you handle such. So please, let it end because the team has made up their minds. I am just the only one posting on the subject. I do not care what other lore you bring to me unless its something saying yes they can.

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Oh, such an intellectual post. Do you have any sources or arguments to back it up, though? This debate is a series of posts referring to somebody else who said something. But now it seems that you're just pulling it out of thin air, and you don't care if it's based on any lore or not. That's your right as a DM, but it's not very good DMing.

If there's a collective DM decision, though, it's something you need to announce elsewhere. Especially since you're trying to smuggle in something that's against everything Amia has stood for, and you're not even being very thorough with it. I thought you were supposed to refrain from making normative flavor calls that affect how everyone gets to play their game based on individual DM taste. That's the Amia I thought I was playing, at least.

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Things will be posted when things are done. This just keeps being brought up constantly. And no, right at hand I have no direct sources that I can remember because I never have had countless source books and remember where each bit of info is from in each book.

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If you don't remember, you might want to be more careful when pushing major changes that affect other players, when the chances are you're wrong. A bit of skepticism towards your own ideas is probably healthy.

I'm sorry if I'm rude, I'm just very shocked and besides pissed for other reasons, too. Either way, this is something that you shouldn't be doing in secret but rather getting feedback from the vast collective knowledge of the playerbase, as has been the case with new lore in the past.

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