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eh, I'm of the opinion Kelemvor found his inner Hin and now hides out under Greenfields playing with his hounds and eating all our cake.

I actually really dig the hin deity of death. I forget his name but he has a black dog and he is kinda the party pooper of the pantheon.

The way I see it, it's probably one of two ways:

1. Everyone goes to the fugue when they die (unless their soul is trapped, stolen or anything of that nature, of course) and from their, you get taken to your deity, your god of death to be judged or to the big man, Kelemvor, himself.

2. Faerun Pantheon worshipers, Humans and possibly races without gods of death go to the Fugue. All others go to their respective pantheons plane to be claimed by their god or to be judged by your god of death.

Many races/Pantheons have their gods of death:

Kelemvor (Faerun)
Osiris (Mulhorandi)
Urogalan (Hin)
Sehanine Moonbow (Elves)
Segojan Earthcaller (Gnomes)
Dumathoin (Dwarves)
Chronepsis (Draconic races)
Stalker (Goblinoids)
Yurtrus (Orcish races)

There are exceptions, of course. Like the Fey, Giants, Drow and Duergar. I imagine the Drow simply get thrown into the abyss when they die, if they're faithless or false. Although that's not that big of a difference from their typical faiths in the Dark Seldarine (save for Eilistraee) because they'd end up in the Demon Webb Pitts anyway. The Duergar? I wouldn't know what to guess, because I don't really know the race that well. Giants? Hell if I know. Fey? I also don't know, but perhaps back to the feywilds or to the House of Nature?

But then another question arises. If these other pantheons don't go through the Fugue and Kelemvor, where do their faithless and false go if they're deemed unworthy of staying in the plane? The Lower Planes? Sent to the Fugue? Who knows.

And what of Chultans? Do they go to the Fugue or deal directly with Ubtao? I recon the latter.

Also, what of those who worship spirits or totems? I'm sure they go to the Fugue, but where from their? Perhaps some go to the House of Nature? Who knows.

I imagine Kelemvor has agreements with the various gods of death and they all utilize the Fugue to some degree, but that's my take.

From what I've read, mostly in the novel Crucible and a few others, the souls of the dead first go to the Fugue, where after up to a tenday, spent crying out to their gods, those of the faithful all get collected once by a representative of their god (All of Corellon's get scooped up at once, as do all faithful Tormish). This goes for good as well as bad. I'd also imagine evil, truely fallen fair elves are tossed wholesale into the Demonweb along with the other traitors.

The souls left behind are the Faithless and the False. The Faithless had no deity, and get stuffed in the Wall of the Faithless. No matter what race or pantheon their race serves. The False are likely taken/judged by their own pantheon's god of death, and given whatever punishment/purgation their deeds demand. In the case of Kelemvor, it can be anything from escorting visiting devils around as guides, to horrible tortures that'd probably even make Asmodeus wince. Also, before the time they're judged, the False can sell themselves to the devils, in the hope of avoiding a possibly even worse fate at Kelemvor's hand. Also, according to one part of Crucible, I think, the False cannot speak the name of their god, while the Faithful can. The Faithful can also not be decieved by a fake emissary of their god. They can innately recognize the real ones.

As for beast totems/nature totems, I'd think ones from Chult would be seen as aspects of Ubtao, as he has sole dominion over that particular region, IIRC, save for a minor aspect of Shar. Other beast or nature totems, depending on their region, might be considered aspects of Silvanus (the god of nature as a whole) or Uthgar. I think they'd be treated as other worshippers, since gods are well known to be known by a multitude of names.

All this talk of the afterlife brings to mind that Kobolds uniquely believe that they are reincarnated. This being the case, are they? If so, would that only apply to Kobolds that honor their own Pantheon? ((Races of the Dragon is the place to look concerning that concept.))

Gers wrote:

As for beast totems/nature totems, I'd think ones from Chult would be seen as aspects of Ubtao, as he has sole dominion over that particular region, IIRC, save for a minor aspect of Shar. Other beast or nature totems, depending on their region, might be considered aspects of Silvanus (the god of nature as a whole) or Uthgar. I think they'd be treated as other worshippers, since gods are well known to be known by a multitude of names.

That was what I assumed too, at it's most basic principle. Both in regards to totems and spirits. Let's not forget Ulutiu though, who is also a totem god.

But then you have certain peoples where the connection to Silvanus, Ubtao, Uthgar or Ulutiu are either blurred or eliminated outright.

Take Wild Elves -- and sometimes Cha-Tel'Quessir (half-elves of the Yuirwood) -- who often venerate nature itself as a force and animal spirits. In the case of some of the animal spirits, it's actually a written fact that they don't regard Uthgar or Silvanus, but Rillifane Rallathi. The Leaf Lords alias animal spirits are Bear, Eagle, Raven and Wolf. Those spirits -- and all spirits for that matter -- are inspired by Native American spirit worship. You can read some really interesting stuff about the spirits and totems in the book "Legends & Lore." But then what of a spirit of, say, Owl or Lynx? Who knows, but perhaps still an aspect of the Leaf Lord.

Take the Wild Dwarves, who view the whole of the Dwarven Pantheon as little more than spirits associated with different aspects of their lives. They view only Thard Harr as a true god. Surely this is still viewed as, at the very least, lip service to their pantheon of gods. But what if a particular Wild Dwarf prays more to, say, the "spirit of battle" than s/he does to Thard Harr? Would he still go to Clangeddin Silverbeard even though s/he see him as a spirit and not a god and has minimal understanding of the god himself? Maybe, but maybe not.

DustSpray101 wrote:

All this talk of the afterlife brings to mind that Kobolds uniquely believe that they are reincarnated. This being the case, are they? If so, would that only apply to Kobolds that honor their own Pantheon? ((Races of the Dragon is the place to look concerning that concept.))

I'm not certain, but I think the answer is no. Races of the Dragon and Monster Mythology don't say anything about Kurtulmak actually reincarnating Kobolds. Races of the Dragon just says that they believe it true.

I'm sure he has some nice things in store for loyal Kobolds and some pretty rotten things in store for non-loyal Kobolds in death though, knowing the type of god that he is.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that some clans of elves believe in reincarnation and that...(memory's a bit fuzzy)...Sehanine guides them to their next incarnation as well as guiding other elves to Arvandor.

I think we should treat even confirmed OOC information as speculation, to be honest. It's not just that our characters won't know so it's unnecessary information; setting it in stone also ruins the fun for us and is contrary to the nature of myths. 2e books didn't actually state most mysterious things in absolute terms but presented IC theories. Elves Of Evermeet is written from the perspective of a human sailor who reports and reflects on the beliefs, theories and phenomena he's witnessed on the island during his visits, for example. Volo's Guide To All Things Magical is something Volo tried to release uncensored, but Elminster got pissed and edited out all the dangerous and too specific knowledge within. Even if 3e books present themselves as neutral and omniscient, it's probably more fruitful to treat them the same as the speculative 2e accounts.

I see no harm in talking about and knowing things OOC about FR lore. If people take everything they read about FR lore and use it on a know-it-all PC, that's their issue.

That's a strange and surprising post from you, for being such a lore monkey and a stickler about asking people to source their statements on this thread. Not to mention, you've probably contributed to this thread more than anyone. A change of heart, Iron?

Oh, I don't think speculating OOC is bad at all (for us enlightened elite who can supposedly seperate IC and OOC, of course

). I think we should look at what the books say on this and give it a thorough and fair evaluation. But I don't like the fact that some books make such absolute statements on these kind of matters. I'm all for homebrewing and ignoring stuff, as long as the reasoning is clearly explicated and not based on false information. First you need to know the facts, and then you can do whatever you want with them (as long as you don't try to sell it as canon).

Here, we have two options: retcon and go into banal metaphysics about who's who, how and why in the transcendent realm, or we can treat the information as speculation equal to other reports. It's not just that PCs can't know for certain and that DMs may want to brew some mystery around it, but also that the realm of gods is subject to change as beliefs change on an IC level. I mean, if everybody suddenly believed Kelemvor had no power over the Fugue, I'm inclined to think that would also become the truth. At least that's how I view gods, and that's why I think we should always approach them from below, from mythology and religious practice.

A silly question here. Can Umber hulks hear something ? If someone speaks in common to a person that is shifted into a umber hulk, could the shifter hear it ?

I don't know any reasons why umber hulks would be deaf o.o

Shifted or polymorphed? I also lack my monster manual at work. Then again I think I have a PDF copy of Drow of the Underdark 3.5 and that may have a listing... That or Underdark.

TeroSNS wrote:

I don't know any reasons why umber hulks would be deaf o.o

I assume it would be like the moles then ? Since moles have a good audition.

Umberhulks have tremorsense, which lets them feel vibrations through the ground. Pretty much any vibration at all.

I am most certain they have some sort of way to hear and understand language as well. But they aren't like moles at all. I mean yeah, they burrow, but they actually have great senses all around, IIRC. That's why they're used as guards by some UD races. The buggers can pretty much find anything.

Edit: Ah, found a source. Yeah, they speak Terran, apparently, the things certainly can hear just fine.

http://www.umberhulk.com
http://www.umberhulk.com/umberhulk-third-edition.html

Dark Immolation wrote:

Umberhulks have tremorsense, which lets them feel vibrations through the ground. Pretty much any vibration at all.

I am most certain they have some sort of way to hear and understand language as well. But they aren't like moles at all. I mean yeah, they burrow, but they actually have great senses all around, IIRC. That's why they're used as guards by some UD races. The buggers can pretty much find anything.

Edit: Ah, found a source. Yeah, they speak Terran, apparently, the things certainly can hear just fine.

http://www.umberhulk.com
http://www.umberhulk.com/umberhulk-third-edition.html

the maker of that website needs to get a life, seriously.

alamut wrote:

TeroSNS wrote:

I don't know any reasons why umber hulks would be deaf o.o

I assume it would be like the moles then ? Since moles have a good audition.

their sight is pretty much perfect in darkness, too.

Thank you all for helping me !

As is consistently pointed out to me, I enjoy playing short folk. As a challenge to that I am considering making a hardcore human *gasp* merchant/wanderer. Looking into this concept further I took note of the Durpari in the subrace section and decided Durpar is a decent enough starting region and could lead to some fun intellectual-based RP (a must from my own experiences standing idly in the merchant hall or Wiltun square waiting for serious buyers) based upon what we have on the forums. As is my usual custom with character concepts, I turned to my books but I can not find much of anything on the region outside of the small bit in the FRCS. Anyone have any more info on them?

Shining South has a huge section on Durpar, Damara, and Halruaa. And by huge section I mean "The entire book."

*smacks forehead* I think I deserve the dunce cap on this one. Will need to pull it off the bookshelf and read through it when I get home. Thanks!

The Adama is cool.

If you like the kind of modern Hinduism Vivekananda championed, anyhow. It's not the rip-off that annoys me, it's that it was done in such a modern, one-sided and inaccurate way.

Its still cool.

TormakSaber wrote:

Shining South has a huge section on Durpar, Damara, and Halruaa. And by huge section I mean "The entire book."

Typical Human, to count out the little folk! The book has a huge and awesome section on Luiren too -- land of the Hin.

I'm getting into the pain/pleasure scene through Loviatar recently.
However I don't seem to be able to find much about her besides the standard faiths & pantheons entry which is copy/pasted to various sources. Does anyone know where I can find more?

I've also seen the Maiden of Pain novel which relates about it. Has anyone read it and could it be usefull?

I have a deep lore question.

Is it possible for an undead, such as a Winterwight, to be sentient, and to follow the summoner willingly?

The Epic Level Handbook suggests Winterwights are sentient.

ELH p. 227 wrote:

Winterwights are the creation of a legendary demilich who sought the limits of necromantic power. Luckily, winterwights are few, and generally trapped in forgotten citadels decaying on the Astral Plane or the Negative Energy Plane. Extremely powerful liches, vampires, and demiliches sometimes gain winterwights as temporary allies. Winterwights speak Common and Infernal.

If a lich, vampire, or demilich has to gain something as an ally, as in not a servant, thrall, slave, but convince to "partner up", that says to me the things are not only sentient, but have a pretty strong sense of self as well.

So a specific answer for you question, yes, it is possible... but I'm thinking it would take a pretty damn powerful person or some extenuating circumstances for them follow anything. Sorta makes me think about Ryuk from Deathnote. He's a goddamn god of death. He follows the human main character around not because he's obligated to, but he finds him more amusing than anything else.

Moral of Dark Immolation's comparison: Find your winterwight an apple and make writing look cool.

Dergaii wrote:

I'm getting into the pain/pleasure scene through Loviatar recently.
However I don't seem to be able to find much about her besides the standard faiths & pantheons entry which is copy/pasted to various sources. Does anyone know where I can find more?

I've also seen the Maiden of Pain novel which relates about it. Has anyone read it and could it be usefull?

The Book of Vile Darkness might provide some inspiration for you. It describes torture devices, execution devices, drugs, other poisons and other such things.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Dergaii wrote:

I'm getting into the pain/pleasure scene through Loviatar recently.
However I don't seem to be able to find much about her besides the standard faiths & pantheons entry which is copy/pasted to various sources. Does anyone know where I can find more?

I've also seen the Maiden of Pain novel which relates about it. Has anyone read it and could it be usefull?

The Book of Vile Darkness might provide some inspiration for you. It describes torture devices, execution devices, drugs, other poisons and other such things.

Ah yes forgot to mention I browsed that already. Liquid pain is niiice.
However core Loviatar info is scarc it seems.

All info in Faiths & Pantheons is scarce. Here's the Faiths & Avatars entry: http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/humangods/Loviatar.htm

My Sovereign wrote:

I have a deep lore question.

Is it possible for an undead, such as a Winterwight, to be sentient, and to follow the summoner willingly?

basicly only skeletons and zombies are non-sentient, which are made with "animate dead" PnP spell, which also makes them into your control.

create undead and create greater undead make ghouls, wights, mummies, wraiths etc. which are not in the casters control, unless you cast control undead on them (PnP duration is 1 hour/lvl)

This is more for the staff to answer, but opinions can count as well.

Is it possible for a Sorcerer to be born as a result of the actions of an Infernal Cult? No mating with fiends, but just as a result of someone being pregnant while messing with the infernal essence of their patron? Or perhaps as a 'gift' for their faith?

I'll give more info if it's needed. Also wondering if this would have to be approved as a special character.

Dergaii wrote:

Ah yes forgot to mention I browsed that already. Liquid pain is niiice.
However core Loviatar info is scarc it seems.

*Cough Ink jackals Cough*

ShadowSoul89 wrote:

This is more for the staff to answer, but opinions can count as well.

Is it possible for a Sorcerer to be born as a result of the actions of an Infernal Cult? No mating with fiends, but just as a result of someone being pregnant while messing with the infernal essence of their patron? Or perhaps as a 'gift' for their faith?

I'll give more info if it's needed. Also wondering if this would have to be approved as a special character.

In theory, yes.

TormakSaber wrote:

ShadowSoul89 wrote:

This is more for the staff to answer, but opinions can count as well.

Is it possible for a Sorcerer to be born as a result of the actions of an Infernal Cult? No mating with fiends, but just as a result of someone being pregnant while messing with the infernal essence of their patron? Or perhaps as a 'gift' for their faith?

I'll give more info if it's needed. Also wondering if this would have to be approved as a special character.

In theory, yes.

Some magical nations have very basic magical eugenics experiments going on in our current time, I believe(Thay, IIRC). While that would be based upon genetics, I don't see why there couldn't be the possibility of trying non-snookie ways of getting them too.

The closest verified thing I know of what you're talking about would be the phenomenon of Wildfire that happens to some people that are born or live in Raven's Bluff. It's not exactly sorcerous, but some residents do randomly, and spontaneously, manifest magical ability. This is believed to come from an ancient mythal under the city, that has seeped its magic into the surroundings. It's actually one of the bases for my char's theory of "knots in the Weave." http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wildfire Yeah, it's FRwiki, but it cites the book The City of Ravens which came out in 2000, so it's not definitely not 4e.

In any case, I'm sure some players/PC's would be thrilled help you further or explore this idea. *cough, cough, hack, gnudge, spasm*

Thanks for the replies. And I'll keep that in mind, Dark.

In any of the books or what have you, is the Celestial Alphabet or runes tied to it described in any sort of detail?

Thank you in advance. ^-^

I want to say that the Planar Handbook has some examples in it... Can someone double check me on that?

Failing that, Book of exalted Deeds.

I'll doublecheck the Book of Exalted deeds but nothing stuck out in there.

(Ironically though, it's material from there which inspried this)

what is the lore on those who passed away?
can they in some manner interact with the living?
to be more precise, can the dead visit the living in their dreams or haunt them some other way?

Grymia wrote:

In any of the books or what have you, is the Celestial Alphabet or runes tied to it described in any sort of detail?

Thank you in advance. ^-^

The "Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting" book has a decent section on runes in regards to magic.

Dead wrote:

what is the lore on those who passed away?
can they in some manner interact with the living?
to be more precise, can the dead visit the living in their dreams or haunt them some other way?

The living dead mostly haunt locations, not specific people. Pretty much all undead can haunt a location.

Ghosts, and their many more specific varieties, are probably the best known for being the "haunters."

As for undead that can haunt dreams, see "Dream Vestige."

But not undead. More like a soul of a dead person communicating with the one who is still living?
Souls travel to the realm of the deity right? But the question is weather they can communicate with the living ones?

Dead wrote:

But not undead. More like a soul of a dead person communicating with the one who is still living?
Souls travel to the realm of the deity right? But the question is weather they can communicate with the living ones?

There are spells that would allow communication, yes. But generally speaking, when the dead come back to the prime without the use of raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection or reincarnate, they're undead. There are some exceptions, of course.

Speaking of the dead, I would like my morbid curiosity sated.

When children die, how are they judged? I wouldn't think that children pay much allegiance to any particular god as an adult would. Rather, I think that they wouldn't be qualified to pray to them in such a meaningful manner as to know they belong to a certain god. They would not have their personalities developed yet to form the person that they would be. After all, isn't that a big part of why people are chosen by or choose certain gods?

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