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*Goes to DL Monster manual Version 2.e*

Edit - There's nothing to DL. >< It doesn't exist.

Halecta wrote:

You can find basic information in the 3rd edition Monstrous Manual 2, but the best information is in 2nd edition, which is still used in 3rd edition.

This. The gem dragon info in 3.5 Ed is basically lifted from the 2nd Ed materials, but lifted incompletely. As is typical for FR, the info from the 2nd Ed source is more comprehensive; the 3.5 Ed sources don't expand on, update, or contradict any of the previous material, they only rework the raw creature mechanics to the newer edition.

Without spoilers, is there an actual reason Wand and Scroll creation don't burn XP specific to Amia? (IE is there actual Lore or is this just presumed to be how it'd be across Faerun)

IT's just how it is across Faerun. Mechanically it's done because we don't want people de levelling themselves from crafting, and because at 30 you'd delevel practically every time you crafted so it was done away with.

Ah okee. *nodnods* .. Sorry for asking but I just wanted to make sure there was no setting specific reason is all.

Calendar question. I'm unsure where to find the answer, so I'll just post it here.

Is it a direct translation:
Hammer-January
Alturiak-February
Ches-March
Tarsakh-April
Mirtul-May
Kythorn-June
Flamerule-July
Elisias-August
Eleint-September
Marpenoth-October
Uktar-November
Nightal-December

Following that, today on Amia would be the 13th of Hammer? Chronology has come up with one of my characters and I'd like to be sure. Also, I lost that thread with the timeline. What year is it on Amia, again?

Having piss problems finding a proper DL of the 2nd edition monster manual. Anybody got a good site to link?

Can someone give me some lore regarding the hate between the Dwarves and the Duergar. As far as I can tell Clan Duergar felt that the other Dwarves abandoned them out of cowardice when they were cut off from the rest of the Dwarves in the Mindstalker wars.

How do Duergar feel about the Dwarven pantheon abandoning them to their fate as well? Would it be logical to assume that some have lost faith in the Moradinsaman and the other gods altogether? I also read that the Duergar don't much care for life or their new form of existence and that they're simply waiting for their life to end. Not that they're suicidal but that they will put themselves under great risk and life threatening danger with little concern because they ultimately do wish for their pathetic life to be over. If this is true, then I must ask why?

Why would they feel that way since they have become hardier than their surface relatives? They kept their superior craftsmanship skills that some even say surpasses that of the Dwarves and they have developed an immunity to some of the torture methods used on them.

Basically, anything you can tell me about the Duergar is appreciated.

Well, they are frigging ugly, nobody likes anyone in underdark, and seems they've taken it quite personally? Dwarven races do tend to have long memories, and the basic depression of not having any leftover culture or such thing after broken from under the mindflayers control, can be quite depressing. This is all just a speculation though.
sadness leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate to suffering, to quote Yoda.

Well, dwarves are an incredibly pessimistic and mistrustful race, wherein the Duergar take it to an even higher level. They bear serious grudges towards most of the races in Faerûn and don't even promote themselves the way dwarves do. From what I know, they've abandoned the rest of the Mordinsamman, only paying homage to their designated pantheon.

This is speculation as I'm not specialised in the duergar, but I'd imagine they are very invidious in their grudge, and envy the surface dwarves and many races in general. http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/dwarve ... enGods.htm Check here for information and feel free to search for more.

Deep Duerra and Laduguer are the Duergar gods, Laduguer being the superior(if I remember correctly)

Speaking of dwarves, is there any lore in existence regarding dwarven marriages and ceremonies?

dimension_w wrote:

Speaking of dwarves, is there any lore in existence regarding dwarven marriages and ceremonies?

they drink beer until everyone passes out.
the bride beats up her husband at wedding night.

Great link Opustus, thanks.

I didn't find any mention of them thinking their lives are worthless and pathetic though. On the contrary it says they consider themselves the true Dwarves. They think the surface Dwarves are lazy and weak, as well as cowards for abandoning them to the Ilithids. They also consider the Moradinsamman to be weak or without enough influence to help them.

But now I wonder how they came to the conclusion that Laduguer is any better? How exactly did he help them during their enslavement? I can see how they would venerate Deep Duerra as one from their own ranks who helped free them but I can't find any mention of how Laduguer helped them.

I am also a bit confused as to how a Duergar would react upon seeing or interacting with a Dwarf. So far I've roleplayed those encounters with extreme hostility with my reason being 'My pathetic existence is your fault. The gods have abandoned us because of your cowardice...'. But if they don't consider themselves to be less than the Dwarves and in fact superior to them, then that argument doesn't hold any water I think.

I want to avoid situations like this.

Duergar: I hate you!
Dwarf: Why?
Duergar: ...
Duergar: ...
Duergar: I HATE you!!!

What are the Duergar's reasons for hating the Dwarves then? Do they feel that they are a disgrace to the Dwarven race, and as such a disgrace to themselves? Would an encounter between a Dwarf and a Duergar be very hostile or would it be more plausible that they just ignore each other, treat each other with neglect?

I always thought it was a mutual hate between duergar and the rest of the dwarves. You hate them because they hate you. The reasons can range from anything. Hate doesn't always follow logic. Yes, sometimes it stems from personal experience, but for the dwarves, I imagine its more of a history thing. You hate them because they've always been hated, and you were raised to believe such.

But I imagine that the Duergar side of it may stem from their actual "creation." They were enslaved and subsequently experimented on by Mindflayers. Perhaps their resentment towards the other stunties is because none of them came to their aid or tried to free them. That, or the few that tried never succeeded.

Ok, that's pretty much how I roleplayed it so far. I'll just throw out the part where my Duergar thinks his life is pathetic or worthless.

Why? That's a perfectly fine reason to have. Your character's reasons for hatred don't have to match up perfectly with lore, not at all.

Cause I don't wanna play an emo Duergar

Polris wrote:

Cause I don't wanna play an emo Duergar

then play an emo vampire, with sparkly skin.

Polris wrote:

Cause I don't wanna play an emo Duergar

Well, from what I've understood they're not emo, per se. Just extremely dour.

I'd tell you to play your characters however you like it, but of course it's good to have your facts right, so that you won't think that the Duergar are the underground faeries or something. And the only dwarf I can see not reacting with extreme hostility (battering each other dead) upon meeting a duergar is a follower of Abbathor, though even they would have much negativity. The hatred is very mutual, yus, but it stems from the early days when the Duergar first felt abandoned by the other dwarves, and swore to avenge their slavedom.

Prismatic dragons. They're homebrew, and aren't part of the Gem dragon family?

They're not homebrew.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm

In reply to Polris:

Races of Faerun wrote:

Gray Dwarves are consumed with bitterness; feeling their race has forever been denied what was rightfully theirs. The Duergar expect an live lives of never-ending drudgery. While their work rivals that of Shield and Gold Dwarves, they are relentless perfectionists who take no pleasure in their craftsmanship. Only cruel jokes and petty torments bring a moment's smile to most Gray Dwarves, and they delight in tormenting the weak and the helpless.

Races of Faerun wrote:

Gray Dwarves view the world with bitterness, convinced family, clan, other Dwarves and the rest of the world have cheated them of their birthright and their due. They see life as nothing more than endless backbreaking labor, a torment from birth through death. The Duergar evince little mercy for the helpless or the weak and enjoy tormenting those they can prey upon. From a young age, Gray Dwarves are quickly schooled in the harshness of the world, taught that their lot in life is nothing more than never-ending labor accompanied by betrayal and then death.

Gray Dwarves rarely adventure out of choice. Those who are exiled or flee imminent banishment often gravitate to the life of an adventure simply in hopes of surviving. Adventuresome Duergar are usually focused on the acquisition of material wealth, caring little for the plight of others.

Races of Faerun wrote:

Gray Dwarves trace their history back to the establishment of Barakuir, one of the eight kingdoms of Shanatar. The Iron Kingdom was dominated by Shield Dwarves of Clan Duergar, who venerated Laduguer as their kingdom's patron. Although they swore allegiance to the Wyrmskull Throne, the rulers of Clan Duergar thought their king should have been selected to rule Shanatar at the conclusion of the Second Spider War. Consumed with bitterness, the Dwarves of Barakuir largely turned away from the rest of the empire. The foolishness of this action was quickly proved when war broke out with the Illithids of Oryndoll, a city that lies deep beneath the Shining Plains, around -8100 DR. Although Shanatar battled the Illithids to a stalemate, the enemy's armies managed to cut off Barakuir from outside reinforcement. By the time the Mindstalker Wars had ended, Barakuir had fallen to the Illithids, and most of its inhabitants had been enslaved as thralls.

After millennia of enslavement and countless Illithid breeding experiments, the descendants of Clan Duergar were transformed into a new Dwarven subrace: the Gray Dwarves. Roughly four thousand years before the start of Dalereckoning, the Duergar rebelled against their Illithid masters and eventually freed themselves of Mind Flayers' dominion. These newly liberated Gray Dwarves carved out their own holdings in the Northern Underdark beneath the Orsraun Mountains and in isolated caverns deep beneath the Great Glacier.

Races of Faerun wrote:

Dour and suspicious of outsiders, Gray Dwarves have uniformly bad relations with all other races, including other Dwarven suraces. The Duergar regard their Shield Dwarf cousins with particular bitterness, dating back to the Shield Dwarves' failure to succor Clan Duergar during the Mindstalker Wars. The Kin Clashes forever cemented the mutual animosity between the two Dwarven subraces, a hatred that continues today, Gray Dwarves regard their Gold Dwarf cousins as arrogant rivals and potential threats, but trade is possible between the two groups.

Races of Faerun wrote:

Laduguer, the Gray Protector, is the harsh taskmaster of the Duergar and the patron of their subrace. Although the Duergar nominally venerate all the Dwarven deities of the Morndinsamman, in truth they venerate only Laduguer and his daughter, Deep Duerra. Before the rise of Shanatar, each of the Shield Dwarven subkingdoms had its own patron deity. The kingdom of Barakuir, dominated by the Dwarves of Clan Duergar, honored Laduguer and never accepted the ascension of Dumathoin as the patron deity of Shield Dwarves. The ancestors of the Gray Dwarves continued to honor Ladaguer during their long enslavement by the Illithids of Oryndoll. Unlike their Shield Dwarven brethren, the Duergar did not evolve their religious practice toward the veneration of the pantheon as a whole.

Deep Duerra, the Daughter of Laduguer, is said to have been a great warrior queen who stole many secrets of the Invisible Art (psionics) from Ilsensine, god of Mind Flayers. Deep Duerra is venerated primarily by Duergar who study the Invisible Art and by those militant Gray Dwarves who would rather crush their subterranean neighbors than trade with them. Her faith is particularly strong beneath the Osraun Mountains of Turmish, where her followers rule Dunspeirrin, the City of Sunken Spires.

Also, TeroSNS, can you, like... not spam this thread? kthanx.

Very_Svensk,

The book that Prismatics appear in is the Epic Level Handbook. Nab a copy of that if you are looking for more info on the Dragons themselves.

Sincerely,
Dust

dimension_w wrote:

Speaking of dwarves, is there any lore in existence regarding dwarven marriages and ceremonies?

Races of Stone wrote:

Love is considered one of the great virtures of Dwarven life. Love for family, love for honor, love for clan and country -- these are considered the finest motivations a Dwarf can have. While few Dwarven legends allude to love except as a prelude to battle or loss, it is still considered a necessary and important part of life.

Dwarves are considered marriageable when they reach the age of majority, roughly age forty. With parental consent, some marriages might be made sooner, but tradition frowns on this practice. Most Dwarves form a lasting romantic relationship for the first time in their forties, although many do not marry until their sixties or later.

Dwarves believe in marrying for life. Monogamy is strongly encouraged, and romantic relationship outside the marital contract are believed to be a leading cause of social instability and disharmony. Because of this, courtship is a lengthy process, often taking three or more years. Both the parents of the prospective mates and the clan chieftain must approve every match before courtship can begin. If approval is not gained, then the courtship cannot commence. Those unhappy sould caught dallying without approval can endure forced separation, fines and even exile. The families of both the male and the female provide dowries to the pair, and the clan chieftain bestows a gift of money or some other valuable item upon each new wedded couple.

Arranged marriages are common among Dwarf families, especially where interclan marriages are concerned. While marrying for love is not unknown, among very wealthy or prestigious families, it is often secondary to finding a suitable match that will further the well-being of the clan as a whole. Regardless of whether a match is made for love or more worldly concerns, a wedding is always considered a time of joy.

Also read through the dogma of Sharindlar, the goddess of romantic love, fertility and courtship:
http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/dwarvengods/Sharindlar.htm

Also found in the Draconimicon.

Kudark wrote:

Also found in the Draconimicon.

Didn't see them in there. Have a page number or is my search feature in adobe mucking up again?

Was more interested to see if it belonged to the Gem dragon family. I'm still having loads of trouble to find any reliable sources on gem dragons

They're not in the Draconomicon. It only covers the True Dragons.

Prismatic are light-based dragons, not gem.

The Draconomicon covers neither. I think i brought that up on the previous page. Only reliable info was from Alxeigh, When she suggested i should WIkipedia search it. I found ... some ... But not nearly enough.

Very_Svensk wrote:

The http://www.wikipedia.com? Seriously? You found info on Gem dragons there?

edit - Well look at that...
edit 2 - The Amia wiki have Zero info about dragons, Save for Silver dragons. That's the only info it have about any dragon.

Thanks for all the info. Some I've already read somewhere on the internet and some things were completely new and very informative. I've got enough to develop my character further. Thanks again for all the help.

Prismatic Dragons are classified as Epic Dragons if that helps. As I said, Epic Level Handbook is the place to find info on them.

Also, the last couple of pages in the book: Dragons of Faerun contain a fun roster of dragons of all races and where they make their lairs as well as what class levels they have outside of Dragon. Even though Amia has taken some liberties with it's own Dragons and the list in the book is nowhere near comprehensive, I think it would benefit anyone looking for genuine dragon names and/or a tie-in to Faerun's Draconic side.

hey svensk! Catch!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(Du ... 26_Dragons)#Prismatic_dragon

>< Gem Dragons, i said. Thanks for the help, but 'GEM dragons'.

Reason i brought up prismatic, was that i was curious if they belonged to the Gem dragon family.

These are the gem dragons:

Amethyst
Sapphire
Emerald
Crystal
Topaz
Obsidian (added with 3.5)

I also have both the second edition Monstrous Manual 2 and the Council of Wyrms campaign setting, so if you needa nything specific i should be able to find the information.

Halecta wrote:

These are the gem dragons:

Amethyst
Sapphire
Emerald
Crystal
Topaz
Obsidian (added with 3.5)

I also have both the second edition Monstrous Manual 2 and the Council of Wyrms campaign setting, so if you needa nything specific i should be able to find the information.

Council of Wyrms? How detailed in the description of the Gem dragons in that one?

It has alot of detail as the Council of Wyrms campaign setting was designed to have Dragon PCs

As its own campaign setting, it is likely not applicable to FR much at all.

True, but it is the only comprehensive source on gem dragons

Of which totem are the Uthgardt Barbarians in the Crags?

If I remember correctly, it's meant to be a bit of a catch-all place. Have a look there with your PC to be sure though. There should be clues there as to what totem they worship, if it's any one in specific.

Edit: Yep, the people have multiple totem symbols on their persons, so it's a catch all. One thing though, the priestess near the idol itself says "May the courage of the wolf fill your heart," which gives some indication that at least she herself might be of the Gray Wolf Tribe.

Anyone know of a Far Realm "Druid" variant? Got the talking with Guns about why Druids hate aberrations and the consensus that we both had was "because they're unnatural to Toril." But then I was like "Well, aberrations are just the 'natural' creatures of alien lands. They're displaced extra-terrestrials."

With all the source books out there, I figured there should at least be one out there. And I don't mean like Blighter which is more like anti-druid, but like an alien class for terraforming new worlds to look like their homeland. Possibly shifting into its natural fauna as well.

It's not a druid-like class, but there's the alienist in Complete Arcane, which deals with summoning Far Realm aliens and, in the end, becoming alien-like along with its familiar.

They're not just unnatural like fiends, celestials and other outsiders, but they're from the Far Realms which makes them even more foreign. At least outsiders, fiends and celestials are from the local cosmology. Aberrations are from super far off lands and have extremely different and alien mindsets that usually consist of wanting to destroy things. This makes them a huge problem to Toril and therefore are the enemy of Druids and probably a lot of others who would consider themselves people who fight for the balance of nature.

I really don't see anything remotely Druid-like working for an Aberration. It's just not something I see them being into. You talk about a class to spread the nature of their natural world in foreign worlds, but how is that in any way Druid-like? Druid's don't do that. In fact, I dare say that's very anti-Druid. That's an expansionist to the extreme that you describe. Which is totally against what the Druid stands for as one of his most basic principles.

A person I spoke via tells and I had a discussion and it would be great to get some clarification on the matter as it is an interesting subject. The stance of the person I talked to is that a cormyte noble would not wed a half-elven woman because of her mixed lineage. As a mistress, but not as a wife. Now I looked over Volo's Guide to Cormyr and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, but I could not find any information on this claim. I have to admit I do not know much of half-elves though except they do not fit in either the human society or elven society too well, not feeling truly a part of either. But there are 10% of half-elves in Cormyr and various npc's with power or close links to nobility are of the mixed bloodline. So my question is are there half-elven nobles of the Forest Kingdom and would it be frowned upon taking one as a wife?

The whole concept of aristocracy is that you keep your family's blood as intact as possible from all the low-lifers and such. I've always thought all half-bloods are extremely frowned upon by some specific race, and thus would be inadequate even for the human nobility. But then again, what do I know? I rely on logic, and my logic is wrong more than often. Let's just wait for some of the geeks to bring in the heavy stuff.

Perhaps the problem is I never considered elven blood low life, even in the eyes of humans.

half-elves look too human to the elves, and too elvish to the humans.

That's way too general a question to answer. Some nobles would, others wouldn't. It also depends on who the half-elf is. Being half-elf is probably not a problem in itself, but nobility will generally want to arrange profitable and reputable marriages with other nobility. If the half-elf was born to a noble family, there would surely be gossip but probably no problems getting him/her married. If the half-elf was a commoner, I don't see why he'd be any different from other commoners; except maybe having slightly better chances of catching a noble's eye, thanks to exotic allure and long youth. In either case, I can imagine the bored ladies of the court gossiping about it and being all scandalized, but they do that no matter the cause (as you can see in Cormyr-related novels).

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