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Next to no Realms-specific information about Solars or Celestials in general. You'd be looking at Monster Manual or something for reliable general info (I wouldn't trust core stuff like Manual of the Planes too much).

Aasimars in Races of Faerûn (also another source for Mulan lore, though probably nothing but a summary of the abovementioned better sources).

I was looking more along lines how the things are organized on celestia and alike. Also more in depth info on all angels, but it seems scarce.

Yeah... I think the only planars who got any attention on how their 'system' works are Devils and Demons. I've looked for others, but nadda.

In the 3e Forgotten Realms cosmology, there is no Celestia so you won't have luck there. Amia uses it to some extent, however. Still, because gods rule their own realms and have their own servants and hierarchies there's no reason to assume the generic core rules apply very often.

There's an old book on core upper planes, I just don't remember what it is. I've generally been pretty uninterested in the planes because 1) they change all the time between editions, 2) core and FR stuff are often (at least seemingly) incompatible and 3) it's not really relevant to know details about mysterious magical stuff. I'd rather leave that to DM improvisation. If you want the information, there's some of it out there as long as you take it all with a grain of salt. But IMHO, that's the kind of information you really shouldn't need to worry about.

It is implied that there is a hierarchy to angels(archons at least), but it is never particularly detailed. All that is known is that Lantern Archon is the lowest and that Solar is the highest(right above Planetar), except for unique angels like the Hebdomad.

Lantern Archons are actually what petitioners in Celestia start off as. I believe there is an option to keep your original body and appearance, but I forget what the criteria is. Again, it's never said what the exact order is, but it is known that Lantern Archons can move on to become more powerful archons, I'm guessing based off of their merit and good works. It would explain why their bio states that they are eager to help good beings in any way that they can. I'm trying to remember where most of this came from, I just know it now after ages spent researching my PC's background.

I'm of the belief that the hierarchy is not as layered as the fiendish one. In that, there are more than a few things above Lantern, and they are on a pretty even field, except for a few. You may ascend into an archon form that suits your deposition. You prove yourself to be a holy warrior, you become a sword archon, or yourself to be good at investigating and finding evil, you become a Hammer archon. The hierarchy may only come into play when you get up to the high things like Planetar and Solar, which are most likely based off of a god's liking or appreciating you, rather than any particular order.

um, celestia is in 3rd ed, i'm looking right at it in the DM's manual.

ed: "supplicants of every stripe ascend the layers, one after the other, to the ultimate height of the heavenly city (the 6th layer) and from there into the illuminated heaven, about which nothing is known (layer 7)"

thats about as least vague as I can find a referance to hierachy in celestia.

I'm thinking the answers to this question lay more in "what would the gods have their followers do" than "what happens to goodly things when they die", *checks the complete divine*

Exalted Deeds has most of the info on the Hebdomad and their particular realms ot Celestia that you're going to find.

Glyph wrote:

um, celestia is in 3rd ed, i'm looking right at it in the DM's manual.

ed: "supplicants of every stripe ascend the layers, one after the other, to the ultimate height of the heavenly city (the 6th layer) and from there into the illuminated heaven, about which nothing is known (layer 7)"

thats about as least vague as I can find a referance to hierachy in celestia.

I'm thinking the answers to this question lay more in "what would the gods have their followers do" than "what happens to goodly things when they die", *checks the complete divine*

I specifically stated Forgotten Realms. There's no Dungeon Master's Guide for the Forgotten Realms, that's a core product. Everything you've just stated applies to core D&D cosmology (Greyhawk, more specifically) but in the Realms people go to the planes of their gods when they die.

This cosmology business is clearly stated in the FRCS. As I said though, we do use both the Great Wheel and the Great Tree cosmologies, and it doesn't really matter because it's mysterious business. We certainly don't need to know the exact evolution of celestial beings and whether there's some silly 7th heaven nobody knows about because that's where the real God lives, or whatever.

That brings up the question of "Do all souls pass by Kelemvor first?"

I know the Hin have their own god of Death and final judgement. Same goes for Dragons and their kin.

Erm... Celestial lore does kind of affect some characters or potentially some characters .

I am curious what the Planar Handbook says on the matter. I may need to check it once I get home from work.

well, according to amia wiki all souls end up on the fague plane, and are picked up by reps from their deity, unless they don't have one or betrayed their deity or haven't been faithful enough to get a rep sent to them, those souls end up in the hands of kelemvor, who in turn judges them and most likely sends them on to cyric or X other deity for eternal tourture or otherwise.

I lose track at the part where kelemvor passes the souls on because i'm pretty sure myrkul is dead and I remember seeing cyric and myrkul mentioned.

DustSpray101 wrote:

That brings up the question of "Do all souls pass by Kelemvor first?"

I know the Hin have their own god of Death and final judgement. Same goes for Dragons and their kin.

This question again... sigh... it got argued for two pages and the end result was "no one agreed and 2 people argued endlessly over nothing."

I remember.

Glyph wrote:

well, according to amia wiki all souls end up on the fague plane, and are picked up by reps from their deity, unless they don't have one or betrayed their deity or haven't been faithful enough to get a rep sent to them, those souls end up in the hands of kelemvor, who in turn judges them and most likely sends them on to cyric or X other deity for eternal tourture or otherwise.

I lose track at the part where kelemvor passes the souls on because i'm pretty sure myrkul is dead and I remember seeing cyric and myrkul mentioned.

Pft. If a soul isn't favored by his/her god, they either go to the upper planes or the lower planes. Baator's gotta get the terrifying amounts of damned souls from somewhere!

There would be a lot less spam and a lot more reliable information in this topic if people actually checked the books or whatever credible sources they have before posting. It's generally a bad idea to post from memory. You know, just saying...

For those interested in the Kelemvor business, the above-mentioned discussion starts with this post by Maias. Tormak didn't paraphrase the gist of it very well, but see for yourself.

Adamantium golems! Where can I get info on how to build them?

Thankye in advance for responses!

Dunno how to build them but aren't they like mini-tarrasques who just don't know to die? -.-

Standard golem type for drow to use.

Also, keep in mind that golems on this server are toned down somewhat. For one thing, they aren't immune to nearly all spells save epic ones.

which subrace is applied to people from the Shining Plains, or more specifically, Ormath? (The only city with a kelemvorite state religion)

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ormath
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Vilhon_Reach

There is also a sourcebook on the Vilhon reach area, nothing in FR wiki points me to anything other than default however...though I cannot be sure just yet

ed: lots of druids, lots of nobles, no mention of subraces...

No No No No! Don't use the forgotten realms wiki, It's 4e!

*sigh*

You can use FR wiki sparingly as long as you check which books are cited, and when it was last edited.

Their are a few articles that haven't been touched with the onset of 4th edition. It's not like the whole entirety of the wiki got bathed in the damn thing. Also, you can check previous versions of the page. Of course, the info written before 4th ed came out is pre-4th ed.

Still, as when using any external source, it is always fine to check here, if our own lore hasn't overwritten it, which is the case for a few totpics.

Also, lots of the 4e pages have 3e information. You just have to watch the history portion for Spellplague stuff and only go up to that and no further.

It's like Limbo in there, nigh impossible to know what's 4e and what's not. I Just avoid the source entirely.

Human no subrace.

Well they're sure going to be part of one ethnicity or another. But yeah, subrace is not a very good term.

I assume the population will be close to the average demographic of the Vilhon Reach, which means you'll have Chondathans, Turami and Shaarans.

MoshingChris wrote:

Human no subrace.

Very_Svensk wrote:

It's like Limbo in there, nigh impossible to know what's 4e and what's not.

Clicking "page history" and a date is impossible?

4th edition came out in like summer of 2008. Look for the versions of pages before that time.

thus the reason I mentioned the sourcebook, I know how damn confusing it is to tell 4th ed and 3rd ed on that site -_- need to find a link on archive.com or something to see what it said prior to 4th ed existing...

ed: by the look of the cover its 2nd ed though I can't be sure.

A bump regarding making adamantium golems.

Re: Crinti. As I understood it, they were merely a regional group or tribe of half-drow. Genetically, there's nothing special about them, except that their human ancestors were barbarians as I understand. Their info should be in The Shining South, IIRC.

Re: Water Genasi. Can't really help you with any direct information, but my initial guess is that they're in the same boat as all the other plane-touched. That they have no real culture to speak of. Planetouched arise out of regular human(oid) populations seemingly at random. They aren't really a race in that you must breed two of them to get one of them. Most genasi arise out of a normal human pairing, for example. For all the genasi knows, until they get out into the larger world or exposed to information that tells them what they are, they may be the only of their kind. They may not even know that they're a "kind". They just know that they're different from everyone else and it has always been that way.

Now nothing's stopping you from homebrewing perhaps a town or place where misfit water genasi live, like you suggest. But from the lore, it is suggested that planetouched don't have a "culture" like other races, because they just pop up at random, in random places. A notable exception being Calimshan and Mulhorand.

In Calimshan, there is a history of djinn breeding with humans way back in its history, thus a relatively higher chance of Air or Fire genasi being produced. In Mulhorand, the incarnations of gods ruled, and took mortal lovers, leading to aasimar being more prevalent among the noble class. My guess is that these races, in these settings, probably blend into their respective cultures better than another planetouched race in another setting. But even then, they have no culture of their own, but are instead bolstered by the history of their own culture.

Edit: Actually after a little research on AmiaWiki, it seems Water Genasi tend to have a more adaptive nature, rather than a society all their own, and the chance of them forming a settlement rather unlikely.

Quote:

Water genasi have no society of their own, but often subconsciously adopt traits of the people who raised them, so a water genasi raised by aquatic elves is likely to believe in personal freedoms and good behavior, while one raised by sahuagin will be bloodthirsty and militaristic. Water genasi from different cultures can be as radically different as a quiet spring and a raging waterfall.

Water genasi do not prefer the company of other water genasi. If anything, it makes them feel less special and unique in the context of the other beings they live near. Accordingly, they rarely live in the same communities and none have been known to marry. This keeps the population of repeat-generation water genasi low, with new genasi coming from new bloodlines or from lines that skipped a generation.

Their self-contained nature makes water genasi unlikely leaders. A water genasi is more likely to guard or support a person he respects and admires than to be a person who attracts or welcomes subordinates.

Also, they may be more prevalent near and arround the Chessentan region. http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Water_Genasi

Question:

What is the relationship between Mask and Kelemvor? It isn't clearly stated despite the following facts..

He prevented Kelemvors soul from being totally destroyed by Cyric, thus helping him out in a way.

Wouldn't Kelemvor be, I dunno, somewhat kind or warm toward Mask?

Verdict?

It's not something your PC would know in any case, as an FYI...

Kelemvor is a mostly emotionless, but fair, god. I doubt that that holds much, if any, sway in his feelings for Mask. I'd imagine he views Mask a bit neutrally, but maybe with a healthy dose of suspicion as well, due to his track record as a god. But yes, also what Tormak said.

It's just like the relationship between Kelemvor and Mystra. There likely is one, but there is little to suggest such matter would ever come to light for even the highest of mortals. Even other gods aren't privy to stuff like that.

Though I do wish I could know for sure if Torm was courting Red Knight. *grumble*

So if you're a neutral evil blackguard summoning Durgholoths, where does this power come from? Demons, devils, random outsiders, or is it optional between a few specific choices?

Dergholoths are yugoloths. One of the grunt varieties, IIRC. Yugos are the mercenaries of the Blood War, and will sell their services to literally anyone. As a BG summoning one, you'd likely have either purchased it's services, or signed yourself over to some critter that's provided it for your use. As for the critter itself, it could be a demon, a devil (yugoloths serve both), or an evil or neutral deity.

Cool, thanks.

I was wondering if anyone knew the details of half-dragon birth cycle? Does it go either way, choose which way it goes? Like laying eggs or the mammal way? If both parents are half-dragon, will the children be wyrmlings or will some be either half-dragons or the other half from which both parents came from?

I looked in Draconomicon and Monster Manual (2, I believe). Barely no reference to half-dragons. Merely how they could come into being.

(P.S. I do use FRwiki, I look below to see references, most of the time you can see it coming from the 4th editions. It's not true with all of them though, but therefor you have google. I think

)

I imagine it's dependent upon which partner is the female. If the dragon has it, well an egg of course(unless they're in a human form for the gestation) and if the human has it, well there's no point in being prego for 9+ months if you're just going to lay an eggs that hatches later. So I'd guess just a longer pregnancy and mammalian birth.

As for the half-dragon + half-dragon thing: They certainly would not have a wyrmling. Genetics doesn't work like that in FR or RL really. The only way you get back up to a higher percentage of X is to breed with an X. Two half-dragons don't suddenly have a dragon baby, but if a half-dragon were to breed with a full dragon or something, maybe. Just like if two mixed-heritage people were to have a child, their child does not come out all caucasian or all black, or whatever their respective mix was.

Most likely, they'd just be half-dragon looking things. Genetically speaking, they are still half humanoid and half dragon. Even then, that's assuming half-dragons can even reproduce with each other, which may or may not be possible. It's just like how different species of dragon can mate with pretty much anything, but cannot cross-breed with other dragon species. Half-dragons might be like mules. Genetically they're half-horse, half-donkey, and theoretically any offspring they have would be such too, but genetically they are sterile when trying to mate with each other.

Dark Immolation wrote:

I imagine it's dependent upon which partner is the female. If the dragon has it, well an egg of course(unless they're in a human form for the gestation) and if the human has it, well there's no point in being prego for 9+ months if you're just going to lay an eggs that hatches later. So I'd guess just a longer pregnancy and mammalian birth.

As for the half-dragon + half-dragon thing: They certainly would not have a wyrmling. Genetics doesn't work like that in FR or RL really. The only way you get back up to a higher percentage of X is to breed with an X. Two half-dragons don't suddenly have a dragon baby, but if a half-dragon were to breed with a full dragon or something, maybe. Just like if two mixed-heritage people were to have a child, their child does not come out all caucasian or all black, or whatever their respective mix was.

Most likely, they'd just be half-dragon looking things. Genetically speaking, they are still half humanoid and half dragon. Even then, that's assuming half-dragons can even reproduce with each other, which may or may not be possible. It's just like how different species of dragon can mate with pretty much anything, but cannot cross-breed with other dragon species. Half-dragons might be like mules. Genetically they're half-horse, half-donkey, and theoretically any offspring they have would be such too, but genetically they are sterile when trying to mate with each other.

Thanks for your take on it. I however did not actually mean wrymling as an dragon. More in a sense of being born from out an egg. Sure two halves don't make a whole in this case.

Hmm - so it might not even be possible. Where, there goes the instinct to further pass down your heritage, even to one of equal messure genetically. Better would've been a stronger blooded to pass it on, but yeah - a bit lack of dragons around here. Heh.

I wish there was a more detailed version of Draconomicon. Granted it has practically anything about dragons - but a bit of more information about half-dragons would've been nice. It get's even weirder when a dragon polymorphs and then lays with a humanoid, for example; an elf. What if the opposite were correct, a half-dragon polymorphed and remain in such a state to become fertile, then form back once eggs are layed.

Yeah - too far fetched? Heh.

I recently heard Male dragons can produce offspring, But Female dragons cannot produce offspring.
Reason - Female dragons have to lay eggs! And you can't conceive a half-dragon from an egg. Males just got speerrrmmm...

True or false?

Very_Svensk wrote:

I recently heard Male dragons can produce offspring, But Female dragons cannot produce offspring.
Reason - Female dragons have to lay eggs! And you can't conceive a half-dragon from an egg. Males just got speerrrmmm...

True or false?

F.Dragon + M.Dragon = F/M.Wyrmling Dragons (Egg offspring)
M.Dragon (Poly) + Humanoid Race = Half-Dragon (Non-egg offspring)
Half-Dragon + Half-Dragon = None/Mammalian embryogenesis?
Half-Dragon M/F + Humanoid = Half-Dragon/Humanoid with Half-Dragon features (Theoretical 1/4 Dragon?)

So I think a female dragon can't polymorph, breed with a humanoid and then become pregnant giving birth to a half-dragon. Is that about right?

rolto wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

I recently heard Male dragons can produce offspring, But Female dragons cannot produce offspring.
Reason - Female dragons have to lay eggs! And you can't conceive a half-dragon from an egg. Males just got speerrrmmm...

True or false?

F.Dragon + M.Dragon = F/M.Wyrmling Dragons (Egg offspring)
M.Dragon (Poly) + Humanoid Race = Half-Dragon (Non-egg offspring)
Half-Dragon + Half-Dragon = None/Mammalian embryogenesis?
Half-Dragon M/F + Humanoid = Half-Dragon/Humanoid with Half-Dragon features (Theoretical 1/4 Dragon?)

So I think a female dragon can't polymorph, breed with a humanoid and then become pregnant giving birth to a half-dragon. Is that about right?

...On a related note, is there anything to suggest a female can't polymorph into a male and impregnate a female humanoid? At the very least, the alternate form ability of gold/silver/bronze (and only them it seems, the others need to use the spell) doesn't seem to restrict draconic gender-bending. Biologically, that is.

I think the reason there's so little data on this is because the less we know about it the better.

rolto wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

I recently heard Male dragons can produce offspring, But Female dragons cannot produce offspring.
Reason - Female dragons have to lay eggs! And you can't conceive a half-dragon from an egg. Males just got speerrrmmm...

True or false?

F.Dragon + M.Dragon = F/M.Wyrmling Dragons (Egg offspring)
M.Dragon (Poly) + Humanoid Race = Half-Dragon (Non-egg offspring)
Half-Dragon + Half-Dragon = None/Mammalian embryogenesis?
Half-Dragon M/F + Humanoid = Half-Dragon/Humanoid with Half-Dragon features (Theoretical 1/4 Dragon?)

So I think a female dragon can't polymorph, breed with a humanoid and then become pregnant giving birth to a half-dragon. Is that about right?

Pregnancy, magic, and shapeshifting do not mix.

The only thing I will say for certain is there is no guarantee of the offspring being another half dragon mechanically. There certainly will -not- be one without having to request it and get approval on Amia. It'll never be a dragon. At best it will be half or whatever the alternative mix of the parents non-draconic halves would spit out. So half-elf, or elf, or human etc. No such thing as 1/4th dragons to my knowledge.

Not all half-dragons are fertile. There can be serious complications for crossbreeding between them, even moreso than dragons and demihumans...but don't get too depraved thinking about that.

No such thing as 1/4th dragon.

Female dragon would likely be in humanoid/non dragon form in order to attempt to concieve a half-dragon. I do not see a Chromatic one ever allowing anything shy of a fullblood access to her treasure.. as it were, much less letting it come to fruition.

There's a plethora of non-demihuman half dragon possibilities out there though. Like half-dragon half hydras! Talk about attitude.

Realistically this comes down to a DM ruling. And is getting in the messier side of things... less worries about hump-unfing I say.. you pervs!

Besides, unless the female half-dragon has a cloaca, eggs are out.

And you really don't want a cloaca.

Realistically, there has to be a way for Half-Dragons to breed, at least with regular humanoids. I was just suggesting they cannot breed with each other.

The reason I say there has to be, well, how else would you have dragon bloodlines for things like sorcery and Dragon Disciples if the one half-dragon centuries removed in your bloodline was sterile?

I would however go with Dwagie's suggestion that it's likely mostly the males doing the fornicating. Which makes the most sense, in terms of pregnancies. A Male half-dragon impregnates a female human, and a regular human is born in the regular human way. They still have dragon blood within them, but it doesn't genetically manifest to anything, and thus like she and I have always said, no "quarter dragon" stuff going on. Same way a half-elf and an elf mating begets just a regular elf that has some human blood, not a "quarter elf."

But the shapeshifting part is kind of confusing to another point, that I don't think will ever be clarified. Shapeshifting while pregnant, or giving birth while in another shape. Just in general I think it would be avoided, because transmutation and shapeshifting rearranges your body and your innards. Something that likely wouldn't go very well with a bun in the oven.

I know quarters don't exist. Just the humanoid form with ancestrial bloodlines. Where which with devotion, one could become quite close to that of a half-dragon in physical terms.

That aside - a female half-dragon is pretty much screwed then? No pun intended. In terms of mating with another half-dragon, that is. Wait 'till Tiamat hears about that. "What, you can't even produce a batch of strongbloods, instead you die with no successors or you end up with saturated drivel?" Not much option there.

Unless it's magical or something? I'd recon if shapeshifted, one would have to have great will to remain in the form of which one becomes pregnant. Female (half-)dragons don't have it easy with (cross)breeding, hmm?

Edit: Accidently didn't read serbiris' post. Female dragons polymorphing into the male counterpart of the humanoid. Interesting.

I agree - thinking this through makes your head spin. But if you have a female half-dragon, I'm sure that you'd want to know if she could can produce anything when mating with another half-dragon. It boils down to other humanoids are most likely the only option then?

Yeah, my guess is that female dragon kin would be the sterile type, for physical reasons.

But it may just be the Mermaid dilemma. You know...downstairs, which is the human part and which is the dragon part. I mean, all of my stuff is speculation. It's never detailed if half-dragons are more dragony with a human filling, or just a human-shaped dragon, or if it varies, or what.

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