Below is an exact copy of a request I submitted on the... well... requests board. I'd like to get some input on this, so either reply or PM me. Whichever.


I, SydsBlueSky, and my main character, Cali Lethala, have been working for various points of improvement within the city of Edonil. I am working with Ainjyll mostly on this, and I'm doing my best to provide logs/screenies and other things to facilitate the process. So, as instructed, I'm posting a list of some thing I'd like to see done. Feedback is very much welcomed!

1. The equipment for the city guards is already being discussed, but I'll put it here anyway.

2. Cali is working with several other players within the Magthere on guard selection and training for a gate, and will be getting further input from characters on construction of said gate. Ainjyll will be sent logs regarding this as it unfolds. It's already underway.

3. The "Trainer Store" is currently outside the Magthere building in Edonil. It would be very nice if he could be placed inside. I think it would just make more sense,and it's a very minor change.

4. Other slight modifications to the Magthere hall, such as the benches being removed from the middle of the floor and the torch light being switched over to sourceless lighting, since we live in darkness and... well, the sourceless lighting is just a mechanical way to help the players function in the environment. These are things that Cali has the ability to do himself, and are very minor. Perhaps even the removal of the animal mounts in the front room to grant access to the training dummies placed on the walls.

I don't know if it's reasonable to do this, but I have some experience with the toolset and I notice that the Magthere is in an area by itself, so if I could be sent the actual building I would be very happy to make these few minor changes myself once it's approved. I would absolutely love to be able to get ahold of that and rework it a bit. Building in the toolset was once a hobby of mine, though I never learned the scripting side of it. This would obviously need to be worked out with construction crews and such in game, but there are still duergar "construction worker" types posted all around L'Obsul and Edonil, so grabbing a few of them and paying them to do the work should be fine. Cali is willing to pony up the money for this to get done either from "dues" or out of his own pocket, if necessary.

5. A lock on the door to the Ul'Saruk Office would be excellent. Even slight expansion of the building to have a locked room that would be for member use only. This would require someone to construct the addition and a locksmith of some kind. If there is a job class appropriate to this, then I would prefer to find a character in game with this ability. Perhaps the same who we find to help make the gate to the city. Is there a "locksmith" or something similar in game?

6. Cali still has his old Melee Magthere Insignia from his days in Ultrinnan on his last page. Is there any chance of these being brought back into use? I'm thinking that only those possessing either that or a Yath insignia can ask the guards who has passed by recently. Currently, any drow, kobold, or priest of Corellon can do this. This is something that seems simple enough to RP along with the training of the guards.

7. The addition of the shops that Ultrinnan once had would be excellent. I'm speaking of the Sorcere, Magthere and temple shops. Perhaps even house shop, but I don't know a great deal about those. The "Merchant House" is active now, so I'll put the pressure on them to see to this. It will be supported with logs/screenies just the same as the guard training.

That's it for now, but I'll be asking around for character and player opinions to see what else comes up. I understand this is a pretty major undertaking, and both I and the rest of the drow playerbase look forward to working with the DM/dev team on this to provide everything we need to get this ball rolling.

Syd

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

I'll take a moment to reply. I'll do my best to add some constructive notes to your suggestions, though, be aware that this is my personal opinion.



I'm not sure what you're asking for when asking for better geared NPCs. There are two interpretations to it: you're requesting stronger guard NPCs, hence the need for better gear. Or you're asking for a custom gear set for the existing guards, with the intention of marking the existing guards as guards of Edonil, aligned to the Melee Academy.

I've not much to say of the former. I'm not in favour of powerful guards. I do not see the need of it. If PCs can't do it, it's not necessarily a role to be fulfilled by NPCs. Yes, they could look more like drow. But in regards to their power they should be the least powerful of all guards throughout Amia.

The latter is something I support. I think it's about proper time someone clad the guards properly. Of course, this is to be payed and worked to in character. I do not know what exactly you've done already in game, but you'll understand when I say this is a subject you can roleplay thoroughly. The job system is here for a reason.

The vanguard wore black and golden armours, you could send in a module with a few designs. If the DMs approve this, they can import it.



As said in my first statement, I do not like a NPC dominated area. Eventhough you do not make the guards epic, if you swarm the area with them you end up at the same point we started from. It doesn't encourage roleplay and only adds a sense of invulnerability that is known to corrupt characters. A few more NPCs I don't mind, but I'd rather see more commoners, spiders and alike than armed guards.

Yes, the settlement could be a tad more secure than it is. The fence gate may keep low intelligent goblins out of Edonil, but it's not really protective against underdark raids. Compared to the fence they have at Ceyren Mill, it's huge, though.

I'm weary to ask for the Ultrinnan gate.The last we want is to chase away potential roleplayers when they arrive at Edonil and stare up that immensive fortress of a gate. does it suit Edonil? I can't say. But I hope you're not requesting anything racially limited. Yes, we could need more of a compound-like settlement, but realise you're in a compound when you're at war. That said, gates and walls are expensive. Very, I'd think.



Makes sense



There are some people waiting a hell lot longer on changes to their faction areas. I do not see the melee academy of edonil as a faction, it's a gathering of warriors hailing from other factions. (Who thus have proper faction areas, if not available apartments). This hall is even bigger than the one we had in Ultrinnan and better looking at that. We managed fine in Ultrinnan with what we had. What matters the light, i'm not so keen of having the lights dimmed. It's enough as it is in my opinion, the melee hall is perhaps one of the more used roleplay areas of Edonil. I'd not like to roleplay in there for a couple of hours, to leave with a headache.




After all those months I spent in the Melee Magthere in Ultrinnan I do not recall that office being used by anyone other than the Ul'saruk. (Or perhaps a high status jabress at some point). It's common knowledge that the office belongs to the leader of the Melee Academy and thus common knowledge not to intrude.

Internal affairs can be handled in the meeting room, what's the member-only area going to add to it, in all honesty?




They were given by Sut'rinos Tharith (I think I got that name more or less right?), the NPC gave insignias to all warrior classes of level 5 and above. The criticism on the guard report is given before. I'd rather see it removed. Yes, it makes sense they'd give you a report. But "I just saw shadowdancer Malag'yaz passing 2 minutes ago" is metagaming. Or leads to it.



Those items were old. Given that some were neat, though, the purpose of most didn't really extend the flavour they added to the melee academy, in terms of usefulness. I'd like to see the shop back in some time, updated perhaps, but this too is something that requires thorough roleplay. We, after all, lost that shop ourselves.

_________________

For the sake of it not becoming cluttered, I'll just look up and not quote! A few good points here!

1. Cali carried around 14 sets of full gear made through the job system here by characters in game for WEEKS, and it's now in the hands of a DM. I only want them to look like actual guards instead of grandmothers baking molasses cookies!

2. I would go for something that lets in all UD races, but I realize that there are many exceptions withing the kobolds/goblins... and it gets confusing! We are fortunate enough to have L'Obsul as a place for the UD races to gather, so that seems like a good place for, you know... that to happen. I don't want it to get cluttered with drow tokens and blah, blah, blah... This one could go any of many directions.

4. If they've been waiting longer, then they need to show the RP! We're showing it. That others are first in line matters little to me. I don't want our case to be first in line. I want it to be best in line. And I didn't mean dimmed. I only meant to make them unrepresented lights that simply ARE, instead of coming from torches.... because... would drow REALLY have torches? As I understand it, very few other than wizards have more than candles. But yeah, I see your point. I Love light. Love it... but drow don't. Those lights should be to facilitate our RP not to give the drow who live there migraines because of the torches. It's a small thing.

5. And yeah, you'd think so. People love to craft armor in Cali's office for some reason. Maybe that'll change when it become more well known that it's in use lol.

6. Also true, and I dunno what they can "spot," But I know that they can be avoided by stealthing. And as far as people in disguise who don't belong there at all, then they should be escorted by a DM at all times according to the rules in place, so I don't see that as an issue. I got my Insignia from Zanticore way back when... Dunno about how they've been used since then, honestly.

7. Yeah, I agree 100%.

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

Since Ultrinnan fell, no insignias have been produced by the Melee Magthere. I guess not a single player ever thought of bringing the old Sut'rinos Tharith along to Amia B. He was simply forgotten or deemed bothersome and thus purposely ignored. His faith is decided by a DMs dice, I guess, with a higher chance to have been eradicated by the Plague. Though, it has little meaning.

All old MM-members carry those around.

_________________

I find it odd that you specifically exclude yourself fron that list of players that were ignorant and couldn't be bothered. What exactly have any of your drow PC's contributed to since before the plague IC'ly in Edonil or even L'Obsul? An opinion is one thing, but since all seven items are either in process IC and happening in game or the players involved are willing to put in the IC effort, where is your own IC input? Lead and players starved for RP will follow.

For Syds:
1. Equipment should be changable if players put in time and effort to make the changes in accordance with the DM/Dev staffs availability. Since there are more and more players comming forward to RP in Edonil as a result, it's only right that there be some effect shown for that effort.

2. Again, another thing happening in game and as such is the DM/Dev teams responsibility on whether it happens or not depending on the IC actions taken by the players involved. That certain people disagree OOC'ly is irrelevant to IC happenings. Don't like it, hop in and change it, it's called RP.

3. The trainer stor is actully placed in the right position as most trainer stores are near an arena. This one is no different, as the arena is just to the north of the Melee Magethere building. Which is also where much of the training for the Magethere was intended to take place anyway. As well, there is a large open area the same distance from the Magethere that can be used for training too.

4. These I would call minor tweeks to the enviroment. As such would depend on the availability of the Dev team and willingness to make the changes. I would however wait, on most of them until it's obvious that there is actually more RP going on and a regular population is on hand in game consistantly.

5. Sounds reasonable to me. It obviously wouldn't be key only, and wouldn't keep out determined people who need to practice their breaking and entering skills, but wheres the harm in having a private office for someone who's willing to stick around and make use of it on a regular basis.

6. I like the idea of having the guards who can identify anyone not invisilbe or stealthed by name only able to give that information to authorized individuals. Again since this is likely to be a scripting issue it's up to the Dev team to decide. That being said, a little direction from the Dev team on what would be needed to make doing so more attractive would be nice too.

7. Shops. Fortunately most of the shops made the jump to B, but it's not complete and a few items redily available on the surface are missing in the UD, thus requiring residents to 'raid' surface stores.

Al in all Syds is on the right track by taking action. He's not asking for anything handed to him and is willing to work for what he gets. Kudos.

_________________
Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

Here’s my input:

I say kudo’s to Syds for taking this on to make Edonil a better place.

Next, instead of tearing down these ideas, how about getting your character in game to discuss it with the Ul’Saruk.

After that how about putting down where your character can help out.

Gondor if you want commoners and spider NPC’s:
* Commoners: Go see Oloth’chu Tinnerai as Tinnerai has/had an encampment of Ultrinnan survivors around House Tinnerai.
* Spiders: Go see Nizzre’tyne or another Yath about this (I can tell you that Nizzre will say no spiders from the Temple are going outside until there are trained guards in place to ensure their safety as we have rivvil running about.)

1. Equipment for guards.
The armor, shields, swords, helms are made and ready for distribution, thanks to the players and DM’s who worked ICly to get this done. Thank goodness.

The “guards” are being trained, you know - for guarding, not baking. Also, I am tired of hearing how the Drow shouldn’t have trained capable guards around Edonil. Yes Ultrinnan guards were powerful, so are Wiltum, so are Cordor, I’ll bet Kohlingen are too. I’m wondering if there is a faction with guards that has weak ones? There is no reason why Drow would suddenly decide trained guards were a waste of time. I’m not expecting that the guards suddenly are uber powerful but to keep getting told that Drow shouldn’t have powerful guards (as if suddenly Drow DON’T keep the best, strongest and brightest and kill the rest) is really getting on my nerves.

And “If PCs can't do it, it's not necessarily a role to be fulfilled by NPCs.” So if that’s the case then what’s with the guards just standing around in L’Obsul? There are no PC’s to guard there. Or Underport. Or the mercenary camp. Need I go on? And thanks to all the drow players who brought back their warrior characters to help Syds out.

And “But in regards to their power they should be the least powerful of all guards throughout Amia.” Did I mention the part about Drow only letting the strongest survive? Players are taking the time to ICly train the guards (thanks Syds!, watching Cali in an empty room training the NPC’s was great). Yet due to the very nature of Drow even a Drow in a bakers apron would do a fair job of fighting compared to a regular Cordor citizen. Not that Drow are better, simply that that apron wearing jaluk had to fight to stay alive already.

2. A UD only gate would be good (Goblins and Kobolds are considered UD and move about just fine). Thanks for taking the lead to see if it’ll get approved, Syds.

Skipping ahead:
4. I like the animal heads. I like the dummies being where they are so that characters can come in and watch a warrior work out. Back against the wall keeps them out of the walkway. It’s a lovely multipurpose room. I'll make sure to grab the Ul'Saruk with my character before he gets out the sledge hammers.

Hint: check out the area behind the Magthere that’s empty. It’s pretty cool. Also, a certain Yathrin has been taking warriors to that area under the portal crystal in Edonil and having them show off their battle prowess. It’s a nice big open area to train in.

5. I say if the Ul’Saruk wants a lock on his door, let him go out and get a lock on his door. I’d suggest making it so some enterprising drow might be able to break in – in true drow fashion.

6. Nice idea if it can be done. My Yath does check and then I send a Tell to the player of the character my yath is interested in and ask them if they were in disguise. I also don’t go by the name, I think of the description of the character, if I don’t recognize the name, have never seen them ICly then my yath doesn’t pretend to know they’ve passed by. Then again if the guard is unusally chatty to anyone who comes by I expect them to be punished by the Ul'Saruk.

Not sure what the DM’s would like to see as far as jewelry maker/insignia maker to make the insignias. What do the Eillistraeens use for their signet rings? Can we use the same idea? Then have Magthere insignia, Sorcere insignia and Yath insignia? Insignia and rank are uber important; it’d be nice to be able to flash your insignia.

7. Maybe if any character still has those cool nifty items they can be copied? Or better yet, make them rewards for gaining rank, having them crafted. The sorcere had rings, Temple had armor I think. Oh and if we're going to have to "raid" surface stores...I say we really raid them, heh.

Thanks agian Syds for all your work! *huggles*

_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

I don't think Gondor meant anything negative with his comments. We've spoken a good bit and are more or less on the same page on things. I'm very much enjoying his perspective.

For spiders, perhaps we could arrange something with all of the Yath who have "spiderkeeper" as a job class. It seems like a very good place to start, and that's what I'll be doing. Yath with this send me a tell/PM whatever and we'll see where it goes from there.

As for the PC being preferred over NPCs, well.. yes! But I think we would still like a little more security. And yes, I agree with the fact that they should be the least powerful for now, since they're the newest. With time comes power, and our guards are right to be weak since they're not yet trained.

Lol... Cali hates the animal heads but that's just him. Maybe replace them with six statues of himself in the act of killing various humanoid beasts? Lol... just a thought! ;)

And yes! A pickable lock on his door would be a great RP hook. Someone might find his stack of dirty sun elf drawings.

I love the ideas about the open areas. I never really thought about those... I'll see if we can maybe get some tournaments set up!

Also, perhaps for further discussion on the insignia, maybe something that you can "use" unlimited times/day that will broadcast your rank in the chat box as well as loosening the lips of the guards? And yeah, about those names It's up to the players to be responsible with that. I assume that they are describing that person not giving the name -unless- it's a Magthere member or high ranking female of some type. They would know most of those. This insignia issue is the first thing I would like to discuss here at length. It'll be added into my request on the other thread, so... have at this one.


Okay, guys! Keep it coming. Loving the input so far. From everyone. Remember, guys, that this place is about -all- of us, so we need every view. I appreciate them all, and I'm enjoying working with everyone on this!

Syds

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

I don't much like the heads, trophies are meant to brag about your kills and the mighty and feared drow of the dangerous and mysterious underdark have a.... Deer's head?

But gogo Syd for taking the initiative!

_________________

"Not a single player", logically, I who played as well and who plays in the present tense, am a player. I fail to see how I excluded myself from being a player in that statement.

Secondly, I think that message was clearly a sense of humour and I'm almost utterly certain I didn't even tell lies claiming it. Furthermore your next question does not belong in the topic ahead. What I'm doing is not the question, he asked feedback which I gave freely. That said, I'm putting effort in that 'IC' part you seem to slap me around the head with.

For Syds:



Does not mean his place is suited. He's just standing there, with no indications were he gets the training weapons from. Pulling them out of his sleeve perhaps. Could let him there and give him some racks, or put him in the MM (which makes sense itself as well)

_________________

And you're telling me to get in game?




You seem to forget the Plague went through Ultrinnan and killed without adding figures a lot citizen. A war has began when chaos set in. Tinnerai has been destroyed etc. Doesn't seem much power is left. That's the consequence of in game actions.

The drow have been smacked around for the last year. It can only translate as being small on numbers. In fact, I've been waiting on an orc attack since we moved on B. Some players seem to forget, whether in the past or in the present, that a simple orc attack could possibly eradicate their existence. We live in the Underdark (hence we are "drow"). The underdark is a mean, mean place. It's not comparable to the monster hiding under your bed at night, you're the one hiding under your bed. I often get/got the impression that some characters think they control the environment (being the underdark).

You can be arrogant all you want as character, if truth to be told, you're just pissing your pants when the other isn't looking. So yes, this is your IC reason to work on the defences.

_________________

No bickering. Play nice or don't play at all. There is such a way as respectful sharing of opinions.

It's not IC or OOC ignorance of their place in the world that pisses people off about drow. It's the fact that their players can be such pithy little bitches about the smallest of things and don't know when to shut the fuck up and just get along.

So... shut the fuck up and get along, everyone. This is pissing me off.


EDIT: INSIGNIAS. Talk about them. Skip the other stuff for now. Please.

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

You can ask for a simple insignia that you can flash to players. It's not something that needs to be scripted and for the moment there is no shop it'd give you access to. Just a roleplay token.

You can ask if the Dms would give you a faction tool that allows you to transfer those insignias in game. They're already scripted and I'd think it'd just need to have the faction name changed to "Melee Magthere". I can not remember what it says when you activate it on a player. Something in the lines of "You're showing your [faction name] insignia."

_________________

I'll take that as a pass and let go any criticism on the matter. It's immpressive how even tempered and understanding you are.



Perhaps you have forgotten how the magthere was set up in Ultrinan. The trainer was set up, granted with a weapon rack right there as well, but was right next to the arena. An arena that was inside the magethere building. The new building is not big enough for an arena inside, so it's outside. And so is the trainer. There fore the trainer store is right wehere it needs to be. That's not saying that there could not be a fleshing out of the area, but that all depends on the players involved and the workload and desire of the Dev team to make any changes.

Given the past history, it's not reasonable to heap a pile of changes on the Dev teams plate without showing that the players are wothy of such investment. Lets face it, we're a pain to deal with at times. Syds is making great strides to turn that immpression around.

_________________
Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

I can see both sides of the trainer thing. I hadn't thought of that arena area until it was mentioned here, but now I'm sorta liking where he's positioned. A weapon rack and armor rack behind him would flesh it out, as you said. I'll change my request to that, as it's even easier to implement.

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

Yeps. As a bonus, the arena area is bigger than the old one in Ultrtinan as well.

I would also like to caution everyone, when considering any changes, that making it sound as if the Dev team built the areas in the UD/B willy nilly is a diservice to the work performed. A great amount of work and consideration went into it. Fleshing out due to player involvement and enviroment evolution is far different than "whoever built this was stupid and it needs changing". We as a player group should be at least cognizant of this as we move forward towards a better relationship with the Dev team.

_________________
Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

Excellent point.

Yeah, as I said building was something I did a great deal of for another server, and it's unbelievably time consuming. But at the same time, it can be quick and dirty for a general framing out, but when you know an area is used and appreciated it gets more love. And it's also inevitable that the players want tweaks. I was cool with it when I was building, as it's just the way of things. Especially when you are building places that are used by other players/characters.

It's assumed through all our conversations that we have nothing but the utmost respect for the dev and DM teams unless it becomes clear that we do not. I think that is something that should go without saying. Suggestions aren't criticisms! They're suggestions to make our server a better place.

But yeah, good point. Everyone should take it to heart.

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

Gondor: @ the commoners you suggested for Edonil - Well, getting in game and chatting it up with Oloth'chu or maybe even Arith or Aly’isgar about the refugees would be a good place to start. I think you may want to check in with the DM's to see the status of the refugee camp. I think it's a good idea, give the settlement some more character. The commoners in Cordor are pretty cool, makes the city feel alive. Not sure if we could get them scripted with comments like Cordor but I like that you're thinking of doing something there.

Insignias – I am looking into using the job system for house insignias. Maybe we can start there, give a character who does jewelry something to do? I don’t think the original academy (sorcere, temple, magthere) insignias had special properties. Or better yet make it a quest for a new Sargtlin/Zhaunin/Yath’abban – they go do something and their reward is their insignia. The leader of each academy can decide the style and type of jewelry. Maybe?

Temple – Might we get an actual working idol of Lolth in there? Pretty please with sugar on top?

_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

Added! Thanks. And yeah, that's just more detail to the insignia stuff that will help us out in getting it done. Next thing to do is get ahold of a jewler IC and we'll get the screenies and logs and such.

Gondor sent me something of a quest for insignia, but for now its seems hard to add in. We'll stick to handing them out with PC to PC, I'd think.

What other temple requests do we have? I want to get as few changes as possible to my first request.

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

Another thought, when Aly'isgar was the Ul'Saruk I put together a quest for the Sargtlins so they could get a raise dead scroll and a lesser mythal - like surfacers can get from the Farmer outside Cordor.

That way new Drow can be introduced to they mythal forge, up their wand and discover crafting. And who couldn't use an extra raise dead scroll....esp. low lvl Drow, heh.

_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

I like that idea. That all makes the UD that much more independent, but for the use it gets... Drow tend to get more assistance from their peers than surfacers do. We have that sense of solidarity in the drow playerbase that leads a lot of the more experienced players to show others the ropes. So lower priority, but still a damn good idea.

I'd say that L'Obsul would be the place for that not in Edonil, as well.

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

Here's my feedback!:

-- do the RP.
-- don't worry about whether Devs will want to or not want to until any RP is done that is worthy of any changes.


About the insignia stuff. Why do you need one that you can use on yourself? Can't you just show it in the barter menu? See, I always enjoyed that more than actually using it on yourself for multiple reasons, unless there was a power to the insignia... but I don't see why these insignias need powers...

It's not an insignia with a power. It's an insignia you can 'show' to others by activating it on them.
Alike the banite insignia.

_________________

Which begs his original question, why do you need one that you show by activating, instead of just using it in the barter menu? Giving it a power would of course justify it, but you would then have to justify it having a power in the first place which I don't think anyone is really suggesting.

But, to said original question I would tentatively reply: convenience? Barter is right-click, navigate radial, click, PC walks over, open inv, click, drag, wait, close. Per person. Activating an insignia takes a lot less clicking and shows to everyone within range, much more of a "cop showing badge" type thing.

It's not perfect (I don't think it discriminates for line of sight for one) but having an activate option doesn't prevent you from barter-showing if that is what you prefer personally. Is there any real problem with making them... you know, activate-able?

Edit: Oh right, on original topic: Syds, got a bunch of stuff to discuss in relation to this sort of thing that I want to do in-game. Can't be on much for the next day or so but after that I'll try and catch you online and send tells to organise. 'cos my timezone is crazy and my schedule erratic. And I don't like PMing if I can help it.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

The reasons I like barter-showing insignias and such are completely selfish and manipulative. I see the convenience point, I just don't know how much it matters is all!

Well, I only went that direction because other factions have this. Not special reason! Either or would be great!

The RP is getting there! Working on the potion seller today. That's on my to-do list.

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

Due to the lack of interest in Edonil in general I'm withdrawing the request I personally made... I dunno, guys... it just doesn't get the hours for the work the would have to do.

Not that you guys shouldn't try, but... I'll leave the devs alone for now.

_________________
This!

Drow are kinda like ugly children. When they leave the basement all they do is make your company feel awkward.

I drink Yuengling Black and Tan when I can find it.
I play a Gibson Les Paul.
I have a dog named Jake.
I love Sugizo... do you?!?!

Jesse

probably a good idea. I think history has shown updates dont spur enough interest to make up for dev time.

However, hopefully underdark numbers increase enough to make it worth while in the near future.

_________________
Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

Talks of insignias, racial gates, tougher guards, better merchant stores, spider NPCs, palming away other UD races to other towns...

All that's left to be suggested is to rename Edonil to Ultrinnan v2 and to build up an extremely hostile attitude to anything not Drow and you're set!

_________________
Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

LOL. There's not even enough drow players active to even bother to be this negative about. You fail at being a spaz. lol.

_________________
Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

Well congratu-flipping- lations Galenson. There you have it. Hope your happy and now you can have hours of fun UD play without Lolthite Drow players to hamper you.....oh wait, you don't play in the UD really, do you...

Syds - I'm so sorry you decided to hang up the towel. I thought your suggestions were good ones. In Lolthite society rank and insignia are really important, the UD only gates were appropriate considering the amount of attacks recently by surfacers - especially since there are surfacers coming into Edonil and mapping out the place with no DM oversight, tougher guards are also reasonable since you were taking the time to train them properly.

What some players don't understand is that Ultrinnan was running really well. There were always players on, it was open to other UD races, I had players/characters begging to be taken to Ultrinnan for a little Q&A Lolthite Drow Style. I liked being in a city where my Drow didn't have to put up with surfacers who didn't understand what a Drow was or why. Then the powers that be needed the Drow to move to B. So, we had the plague, Ultrinnan was eventually destroyed. There was great RP and events connected with that.

Now suddenly, Lolthite drow are supposed to be Eillistraeen drow. Edonil is supposed to be Cordor. And I see the opinions of folks who don't even play Lolthite Drow telling me I'm being a witch or worse for running my Drow appropriately.

How do I know I’m running my drow appropriately? Because of all the DC’s. Because of all the tells I get saying so from players who don’t play drow AND from those that do.

And here’s a big FYI for those of you who have been upset by Lolthite drow RP: Lolthite Drow don’t like your character, they think they are better than your character and they even get extremely hostile when your character isn’t intelligent to follow simple protocol. They don’t care if you don’t know what that protocol is – like if you travel to another state or country, it’s up to you to know the laws. So if you are ready for that then by all means come visit Edonil.

_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Fierene, the past isn't going to change and it's a bit overdramatic to state that anyone expects Edonil to be Cordor. Just fyi. Don't let this thread turn into another flamefest of opinions. Let's chill, and maybe a lock if Syds gave up on it all..?

So, what you're saying is that the harassment of pale masters by Triadic Knights, Lathandarites, EO's etc doesn't count? I don't hear complaining about having to RP EO's way or the highway. I have a Jergalite that was run out of the Temple for not RPing the EO's way.

Weird thing is that I know other players of Kobolds who have a fine time RPing with Lolthite Drow. Weird thing #2 is that I don't see it as harassment when my Drow is put in their place by a higher ranking drow. It's the culture. You're the one who assumes it's harassment.

Weird thing #3 is that I'm not playing my Drow and you're right Edonil isn't really like Cordor, they have racial gates and kick arse guards. Thanks for pointing that out for me.

Something to add to the things that it would be nice to have in the UD:
1. A quest that gives a raise dead scroll. (surfacers have 2 quests that cover that)
2. A quest that gives a lesser mythal. (surfacers have a quest that covers that)
3. A quest that gives a perfect mythal. (surfacers have a quest that covers that)
Lolthite drow would have to metagame to do these surfacer quests.

The fetch and carry quest has the UD character going through hostile areas. I suppose that's just to underscore how dangerous it is to be an UD character

_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

Eo? Tk's? Palemasters?
And where did you fit cordor in all of this?

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Cordor fit in after Estaras comment that I was being overdramatic about folks wanting Edonil to be like Cordor.

_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

Once again... people misunderstand blunt sarcasm. Perhaps I should add a smiley face or a group of thumbs up smilies next time?

The reason I point out the fact that the Ultrinnan template does not work is not because I dislike you all, but to highlight a particular point: its old and out dated. The Amian playerbase isn't getting any larger; you can't afford to segregate and separate factions or groups from each other like you could back in 2005 - 2007. Everyone else on the server understands this. The Traidic Knights Forum isn't just used solely by the Triadic Knights for example, infact they welcomed the change... its just the Underdark group that always seems to be different.

Fierene, you said it yourself: its an empty Underdark. And, as proud as I would be to congratu-flipping-late myself for being 100% responsible for such a thing, its sadly not the truth. Yes, "bad outsiders who should have no say" have ruffled feathers with which the owners left and blamed us for never coming back, but that's only one aspect why. Have you ever considered that perhaps its the entire system that's making it unappealing?

-When there's more then one non-drow Underdark player stating they don't want to be around you guys for the same reasons, there's a problem.

-When there's so many factions to man that it requires alternate characters from a mere handful of players, there's a problem.

-When there's a three area'd Drow only city the same dimensions as Cordor which is bare empty (a decision I might add, the Drow playerbase voted on) then there's a problem.


Once again, I quote the Underdark's current state: its an empty Underdark. The current set up which is followed zealously by the Drow playerbase clearly isn't working... and neither is the train of thought behind it:

How will adding in racial gates increase player population? (It doesn't for Kohlingen)

How will locking doors increase player population? (It didn't for the Shadowflames)

How will better guards increase player population? (It didn't for Ultrinnan)

How will better stores increase player population? (it doesn't for Tarkuul)

By suggesting to implement the above, you're locking yourselves away. You are, quite bluntly, doing the Ultrinnan thing. It won't improve anything. You need to move on with the times, create a new and exciting direction that will appease all of your current problems. There's a saying: if it ain't broken, don't fix it... and if it ain't working, improvise.


And lastly, Syds, mate I apologise for bringing back an old debate in your thread. It was most probably a poor move, but its intention was not to discourage you from your ideas or offend you in any way and if you feel like it has discouraged or offended you then I am happy to further discuss in PMs to come to an understanding. However, you did advertise for feedback in your thread, and I provided it from a view that prior to my post the thread had lacked: the non-Drow opinion.

_________________
Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

Here's the thing though: trying to fix this involves essentially not playing drow. The lore is such that we're *supposed* to be jerks and alienate other races, treat them like scum or downright enslave them. We're supposed to be vicious, arrogant, self-important, unlikeable backstabbers. But we're also *supposed* to be slightly safer to be around than anyone else for miles and miles--and this just isn't true.

You're not going to get eaten by UD beasties if you avoid civilisation, you can get anywhere you like with a flick of a portal wand--including places where you'll regularly be treated well by Good-aligned PCs. So why would any sane non-drow hang around us? They shouldn't. ICly there's just no point, and OOCly I can't fault anyone for not wanting to deal with that (it does get a bit dull). But yeah, drow're not supposed to be buddy-buddy with those guys. They can certainly deal with them, but only when it's not worth attacking and enslaving them (which is never, as even diminished drow numbers are still greater than any other UD group).

It's, essentially, a different environment to the Underdark of lore. The only real solution is a dodgy one; adapt our drow characters towards moderation. It's right and proper to kick out/sacrifice our heretics, murder our enemies, bully our neighbours, but the roleplaying environment just isn't sustainable from player perspective.

If it helps, though, the drow have IC motivations to move away from purism--since Ultrinnan I'm given to understand that drow population (NPC and otherwise) is quite low and the status quo is only making it worse, and many drow would be smart enough to figure this out. Of course, proper drow would just keep doing what they've been doing even harder until there's nothing left. I guess that's the choice. Purism leading to self-destruction, or moderation for survival but preventing traditional drow play. I'd rather support the latter than simply let the roleplay die. Especially since, if we ever get better, we can always switch back.



I disagree that all of the above will lead to isolation. Racial gates solve the problem of Edonil being ridiculously porous (mind you, a player population would solve that better, but we can't request one of those). They should be keyed to allow non-drow UDers though. Of course, that leaves out the rare few acceptable surfacer traders, and the poor tiefers. So, perhaps just gate off the temple area, and the Sorcere? Visitors have no business going there except with drowsies anyway, and then they aren't shut off from most of the city.

Re locked doors; he's asking for one locked door, and that's his office. What's the problem with that? Being able to discuss things in private is good. We can already do it, if we rent a house, or on the surface, get one of those keyed rooms. So nothing new is being introduced, it's just making a single area more useful for its purpose. And evading the potential sillyness of marching out of his office into one of the local houses to conduct a secret meeting because only the latter place has a locked door.

I'll concede that guards won't help (and I don't know about stores but I don't know enough to fault your example) but getting those things is not "locking us away". I don't know if they'll help but if done right they won't make things worse. If you're suggesting we shouldn't try to implement anything that won't solve the emptyness problem then I suppose that's reasonable. But what can we really do about that?

Still, getting better shops, gates, guards and all that are actions we are/can/have been working towards IG, so why not put in requests for them? Aside from Syds' reasoning that there are too few of us to make it worth the effort, which is fair enough. Which also highlights the population problem. So. How do we fix that?

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

Just a little imput for a player that dosent know anything about Underdark here on Amia.
I just gave up playing my Orog in Underdark, this is why:
*Played her for 3 weeks, for about 1 hour a day, encountered a total of 5 other characters, all too high to hunt with, the RP was decend enough though. (thats about 1 hour of RP, outta 20 hours of playingtime)
*Tried to hunt a bit on my own, at lvl 4, (the starting quests are nicely done IMO). The easiest place I found was by the rothes and omg, they do 10-20 damage a hit = death. Sewers, rats, goblins, even kobolds are easier than this at the surface)
*So I finally gave up on UD, logged in at Cordor (shame on me), quickly found 4-5 other lowbies, we did the farmers quest and had alot of good old lowbie RP-fun

I have now archived my Orog and I cant see myself trying another UD-character. If too many others have been through the same expirience we have problems in UD.
This isnt me crying or anything, but I dont play to challenge myself in a deserted, dark and gloomy lonesome place.
I play to have fun, with others...

Well. There is a rats/bats section that's somewhat easier than rothes, in a zone called "Cave Pockets" (and/or illuminated caverns) which can be entered through a multi-path tunnel found near the bar in Topside.

As to the problem of hardly anyone being around... yeah. True, and fair enough. Both of my mainish UD characters have had to do a fair amount of soloing, even though with the first I was lucky enough to run into people and the second I started with a friend. So, my advice to new players, and anyone who wants to come play in the UD, bring a friend. Or find a way to hunt with surfacers. Or be really good at soloing, and not mind it.

So it sounds like there's a vicious cycle. People don't want to join because there's hardly anyone to play with, so if they show up they just get bored and leave. So maybe some more quests would be good? Not much to be done with it really...

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

its actually very easy to level up in the UD, you just gotta know where to go. There is a book 'geography of the underdark' you can find in lobsul lying on a shelf that gives a brief description of every place... though its kind of redundant since they renamed all locations to be descriptive.

_________________
Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

As has been the issue for years now, players tend to take IC actions as OOC actions. They take the nose-in-the-air, I'm-better-than-you attitude of the drow as a reflection of how a certain player thinks of another. It's not.

I'd go one step further and say that there's no longer any validation towards pointing a finger at the Drow players. They have Edonil. There's still all of L'Obsul to play in and tell drow to turn their attitudes sideways and shove 'em up their candy butts... but still nobody there.

Players cried and moaned and threw tantrums about Ultrinnan. They've got racial gates that don't let other UD races in! They've got uber guards! They don't play well with others! We don't have our own place to play our Duergar, Orogs or whatever! Wah! Wah! Wah!

Changes were made.

Fast forward to now.

Ultrinnan is gone. The racial gates are gone. The uber guards are gone. The drow have Edonil which is only a fraction of L'Obsul, a gathering place for all UD races to meet and RP.

You know what I see? Nothing. Nobody. Ever. Yet, people still want to point fingers and say "Those nasty drow players don't make it fun!" Yeah, well you've got plenty of room to avoid them if you don't like them. Plenty of areas to explore and hang out in. It's starting to sound like a broken record that got old and worn out years ago.

_________________


"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Serbiris has it right. It’s not the players whom want to be exclusive it is the Lolthite drow culture that says so. You really need to understand that part. The Lolthite society that is being followed zealously by players DOES work. It just doesn’t work FOR YOU.

The items in this request are so that the players have things to do. The reason Edonil is sparse at the moment, in my opinion, is that there’s not much to do. (oh and that DM event in Aigshed has a lot of folks checking it out)

Training guards, searching for already trained guards, figuring out how to magic-up a gate, getting trade set up so that merchants have more to offer, finding a locksmith to get a lock installed, finding spiders to add to the look and feel… all these things take in game RP to achieve. Then if the DM’s like the effort and RP and determine it’s a good thing, Edonil gets it. If not, we still had some nice RP.

So here is a drow player attempting to create RP and things to do and most of what the drow player gets is crap. Well, I don’t blame them for throwing in the towel. *picks up the towel and snaps a naysayer with it*

It’s not a Drow only city, the Lolthite drow just rule there. Cordor is empty a lot but doesn’t look like it due to all the cool, chatty NPC’s. Also, what ainjyll said.

And if you have a low lvl character and would like some company PM me.

_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

Every system has its failures. Perhaps the new set-up isn't the best? I'm not sure if I ever saw anyone saying that Edonil is amazing in every way (only that it's what players asked for). If it's not the best, that doesn't mean there weren't failures of the past. There have been. Nor does it mean that more complaining OOC (about the past, present or future) is really going to change it.

That's the most important stuff. *shrug* Comparing Edonil to Cordor really does nothing. It's mostly pointless.

what i'd really like is a place to get a decent warhammer anywhere in the underdark...

grmbl..

_________________
Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

I believe a new up and coming trading house can assist you...*Rubs hands* Just come on out of Edonil.

_________________


Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

im always out of edonil

_________________
Slander [Zanthair Akarupa of the Horsemen of the Apcalypse] - Sorcerer 'Mediocreare'
Isendu't'tar Ussen'd'Vhid d'My'ana'd'Xull'd'Vharcan - possibly the longest name in Amia
Tiffany Seagrass - weak and fragile weaver of words

You're correct. Yet, there is one small flaw in the logic. Edonil was pretty much designed along the lines of what players wanted and is still open to be manipulated by the players to a certain degree. That being said, changes are almost completely decided by the players. We, as DM's, do have the final say, however, we have stepped back and allowed the players to take the initiative. If you (I use you as a general way of addressing whomever may be reading this, not Estara specifically) are unhappy with something that's going on in Edonil, then get your character in there and do something about it. All the complaining and moaning on the forums will do absolutely nothing.

The long and short can be summed up quite easily.

Don't moan on the forums, get in game, get IC, get active, get results. Activity leads to more activity. One player can quickly become two which will then grow exponentially.

_________________


"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

Preach it, ainjyll!

Amen.

_________________
---
"Every time you play with fire, the fire plays with you.
and when you take the sword, the sword takes you, too."
Malle Malone

I'm trying to get more active, really. But being alone and with no clue on where to go makes its just harder.
I was glad to see my journal changed to suddently include hints on the nearby terrain and I guess every one down here should know a little about the strenght of other races.
Still, not easy to know where to go as a low level. I tried to get to the surface and saw a undead cave would take me there, only to realize I ended up in a small closed area in Frozenfar with nowhere to go
Its exciting to discover new areas though and even though I would prefer even more knowledge added to the journal, I wont blame it for me getting killed by five trolls as a lvl 5, lesson learned...