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Ok,
I actually wanted to post this under another topic that was locked regarding light vs spell resistance.

Simple question:

Character A = Shadowdancer
Character B = Mage

A and B are fighting.

B casts light on A.

A : // "I drank a misty pot therefore your light is nulled".

B : //what reference is that from.

A : // Ethereal visage (or i cant remember the name ) does not allow cantrips to be cast on someone with it on.

B: //oohh emm *blur*

A then continues to hips in and out of the shadowplane to mess with B for the lulz.

My question:

Can anyone help clarify the rules on this please, regarding the misty pot, hipsing etc?

Thank you for your support in advance.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealJaunt.htm

on the etheral plane, technically neither should be able to attack eachother according to ethereal jaunt, since they can on NWN I would assume cantrips should work *shrug* but just my opinion

I'd say ir doesnt work, when you drink a misty your imune to level 2 spells and lower however it doesnt dispell those present. For isntant if your dazed and you drink it it doesnt go off either. Now light is concidered a friendly spell and can proberly be cast on people with enough sr or imunity to that level magic.

So if shadowdancers drink a misty pot and go into a pvp battle etc? light doesnt nullify their HIPS?

Learn how to cornersneak, you prancing tarts?

oh btw... misty potions cast ghostly visage, not ethereal visage... soooooo

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostly_visage wrote:

Description: The caster is surrounded by a [size=150]ghostly nimbus of light

that grants damage reduction 5/+1, prevents all spells of level 1 or lower from affecting the caster, and grants 10% concealment.[/quote]

They dont actually become ethereal from misty pots

so light works on them, and since they arent true D&D spells, we really only have the nwn description of them. Now while it says lvl 1 spells and below dont affect the caster (one who has ghostly visage) I am more than certain if you cast cure minor wounds on said person, it would heal them. So its either a failure in mechanics that no spells lvl 1 and lower effect the person (hostile or friendly) or we accept the premise that if friendly lvl 1 and below effect them, then hostile should as well ICly.

Unless it's mechanically enforced, it's just going to be retardedly complicated to enforce in the middle if PvP.

"I casted light! "
"I had mantle/SR/ghostly visage on!"

In my humble opinion, light already gives a penalty to hide etc from the game engine so that should be taken into consideration.

That said, on a semi related note: HiPS needs a 6 sec cooldown similar to taunt really.

Quote:

a 6 sec cooldown similar to taunt really.

agreed..

even if its not 6...even 3 or 2 seconds would be enough rather then the continuous spamming of whats going on now. that being said.

so yes? misty pots null light? a potion that can be bought from any store and just defeat the primary weakness of sd's?

I could argue that spells aren't visible to the naked eye, either.
And that ghostly visage is just a shimmer that doesn't emit light.
Or that casting light on somebody else is frankly quite stupid, since it gives the Shadowdancer like 50 new shadows to Hips in.

What's the lore behind light disabling the effects of the ability using light? It makse sense as a counter to HIPS, but I don't see how it really works if it allows one to transport themselves through the shadowplane.

if said dancer, becomes a source of light, through basic principles of physics, he becomes muchlike a light bulb, which is pretty hard to hide in the dark if it is turned on, i would believe, that in said situation, the lamp is the only thing you'll see clearly in a shadowy place., even though it emits shadows and over shadows, and would facilitate other shadowdancers, the one who got lighted is unable to hips, at least if he or she would like to be realistic about it, though they are far from gimped, they can still do a darkness spell to counter it, or even, use a blackball. which by itself is very usefull, since they'll get full sneak inside.

First of all.. hide in plain sight is NOT movement in and out of the shadow plane..

Secondly, I've asked DMs about this ingame before and items or spells that give level 1 immunity IC give immunity to light as it's a level 1 spell.

So ghostly visage or the level 1 spell immunity cloak in the Three steps academy completely and ICly nullify light or dancing light being cast on you, even if the game engine doesn't respect that.

The two above would not block out continuental light, however.. neither would darkness.

Also if you're hit with light, you can still hips in darkness, as the spell is level 2 and thus overpowers light. Continuental light overpowers darkness, so if you're hit with that, you're pretty much screwed.

If you have a lightsource on you, you can't hide. At all. Them's the rules, trying to find dozens of ways to explain why you still would be is void.

Gravemaskin wrote:

First of all.. hide in plain sight is NOT movement in and out of the shadow plane..

True. It's the Shadow Jump that has any travel through the Plane. A Dancer using HIPS gathers a group of shadows around himself or throws them at his opponents to confuse them to give himself time to hide using natural skills. On screen of course it looks like you've just faded out and hard to play that way but that's what it is

HIPS : A free action to conceal ones self in the shadows. As far as PnP goes since its a free action it can be spammed to hearts content. As far as NWN goes they implemented stealth so poorly because if you are normally hiding but they have LoS on you, you would be seen no matter what. HIPS does not take you to the shadowplane it merely literally cloaks you in shade. Think optic camo ala MGS 4.

Light spell: In addition to being a level 1 spell to cast light it would be a touch attack as well, what mage would be able to hit a non-flatfoot shadowdancer with a touch attack without first using a true strike?

Continual light: Can be smothered with a cloak or clothing.

Mages: Cry some more.

This is a debate thats been raging since Amia was formed and if the forum posts existed from that far back we could drag out a metric craptonne of posts and topics on this debate. As everyones favorite browncoat once said. "The way it is, is the way it is."

So instead of wasting time trying to light up a HIPS'er just exploit their shitty will save, drop a mords AoE style and fear em up. Simple, no fuss no muss. The dancer is either feared and deaded by AoE or you can *gasp* run away from them since 50% movement speed is kinda hard to catch up with people moving normally. Not every fight with a mage in it has to end with the mage winning.

Last edited by Glyph on Fri, May 06 2011, 16:02 PM, edited 1 time in total.

you don't get a saving throw against light, but they can't cast it on you if they can't see you.

as for ethereal visage

Quote:

prevents all spells of level 2 or lower from affecting the caster

so I guess if light is hitting you it shouldn't be. but mistys, nope. purple not blue.

ed: blarg mistys does stop level 1...

Scimiter wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

First of all.. hide in plain sight is NOT movement in and out of the shadow plane..

True. It's the Shadow Jump that has any travel through the Plane. A Dancer using HIPS gathers a group of shadows around himself or throws them at his opponents to confuse them to give himself time to hide using natural skills. On screen of course it looks like you've just faded out and hard to play that way but that's what it is

Also wrong. Shadowjump does not take you trough the shadow plane. It utilizes the trans-dimensional space between the material plane and the plane of shadows. All the lore on both hipsing and SJ are in the three steps forums.

Light does not need fixing either. It SHOULD be altered to respect immunity, but that's about it. A touch attack could be added but it's right that it ignores spell resistances and has no save. Also it's OBJECT touched, not person.. so if you cast it on someone, you'll have to spesify what exactly you cast it at. Should at least.

Light is also not a problem to any experienced SD. I've never struggled with being hit with it in situations where I wasn't prepared for it, and it's why I always keep ghostly potions, darkness or the cloak of immunity to level 1 spells handy when I'm fighting someone that could use it on me. Having one of the above on at all times is also a good rule of thumb. If you don't wear the immunity to light, don't complain when you're hit by it because you'd rather use your +15 Hide/MS cloak than that one.. Well deserved, I say. :twisted:

But.. Lore on Three steps forums in both IC and OOC form, stickied. If you're having IC problems with being hit by light, then I suggest talking to other SD's or dealing with it IC. But spell immunity to level 1 blocks light, the same applies to continuental light (immunity to level 3 as it's the spell's 'effective' level. Normally it would be level 2 for sorc/wiz and level 3 for clerics.)

There are more spells than just this one that should have their touch attack and immunity problems fixed. Silence comes to mind..

Vinasius wrote:

Quote:

a 6 sec cooldown similar to taunt really.

agreed..

even if its not 6...even 3 or 2 seconds would be enough rather then the continuous spamming of whats going on now. that being said.

so yes? misty pots null light? a potion that can be bought from any store and just defeat the primary weakness of sd's?

Light is -not- the primary weakness of and SD

Very_Svensk wrote:

Or that casting light on somebody else is frankly quite stupid, since it gives the Shadowdancer like 50 new shadows to Hips in.

Large availability of creature true seeing is. There are SO MANY shifter/druids about, not to mention the LARGE availability of polymorph/shapechange spells in what ever form, be it scroll/book/potion. And when you unshift, the now caught dancer stays visible untill he remembers to rehide.

question...with no spellcraft, how does the SD tell between light and continual flame?

personally, if you hit my sd with light, there you go, i'm not going to argue that one, misty or no.

Because one is a magical light with no apparent source and the other is a literal flame made of magic one can smother. Its like if a snake bites you, do you care to check which snake is chomping on your ass or do you just flail around and pull that shit off of you and stomp a mudhole in its face?

Last edited by Kudark on Fri, May 06 2011, 19:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.

HIPS in PnP can only be used if the character is within 10 feet of a shadow. I think it maxes out at a 60 foot jump.
I see it used even when someone is in the middle of a field during the daylight.

Kudark wrote:

HIPS in PnP can only be used if the character is within 10 feet of a shadow. I think it maxes out at 60 feet.
I see it used even when someone is in the middle of a field during the daylight.

Quoted for great truth. Enough people use Shadow Dancer to play the uber cliche of a hooded-and-mysterious badass perpetually involved in talking shit to others for no apparent IC reason other than instigating PvP since HiPS'ing gives them an extreme edge against almost every player other than those who have a high level of experience and skill with PvP in NWN.

There are IC limits to your ability to spam this. Respect them or don't play a Shadow Dancer.

As I've said many times before: I personally think HIPS needs a coded cooldown. I've seen it abused far too much in my time on the server. Not to mention SDs conveniently not noticing when they suddenly start glowing. It's really nice that you have to stop fighting (thus going flat-footed usually) to type "//hey,I cast light on you." It'd probably be better to make light cause an SD to be unable to go into stealth. As for darkness cancelling light? Yeah, way to make an already abused class easier to abuse. Keep in mind, this is comming from someone who has a few SDs under his belt as well.

Last edited by Glyph on Fri, May 06 2011, 18:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I meant literally how do you tell what "unknown spell" is being cast on you? for the sake that continual flame would still hit you with mistys but not light.

ed: way I was taught icly this time around at least, is hips is supposed to give you a brief moment to hide the old fashioned way ie cornersneaking. if you start coding cooldowns into it please don't disable hide mode entirely for the duration, just the hips bonuses.

Generally, you need to look if you start glowing. Which, of course, doesn't work during the daytime. >>

Before this spirals out of control into a discussion about nerfing HiPS:

Casting Light on a Shadowdancer to prevent Hide in Plain Sight is not an enforced rule.

You want to RP that as a SD? Fine, cool for you. But it's not a rule you have to obey, nor will we punish for.

OK, carry on!

And that just made the situation worse for those who play SD and want to disregard RP in order to win in pvp

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Before this spirals out of control into a discussion about nerfing HiPS:

Casting Light on a Shadowdancer to prevent Hide in Plain Sight is not an enforced rule.

You want to RP that as a SD? Fine, cool for you. But it's not a rule you have to obey, nor will we punish for.

OK, carry on!

When did we change this? No, it's enforced. IF you're an SD ignoring light, we WILL enforce it and kick your ass for it.

I was just about to ask why we had an item specifcly designed to make SDs immune to light if it wasn't enforced, yeah....

That's not entirely accurate.

To succeed on casting Light upon someone offensively, you must:

Beat a melee touch attack
Surpass their Spell Resistance
Ensure they have no level 1 and below spell immunities
Ensure they have no Globe of Invulnerability buffs
Ensure they have no Spell Mantle buffs
Ensure they have no items with Immunity: Light

If you want to hit a SD with Light, then make sure you beat all of these first, rather than running up to them and casting Light with no warning.

Question. The BoT page for Continual Light = AoE light. Is that classed as AoE level 1 Light, or remains as a level 3 spell, as that is what continual light is, and what slot is being used up in the process?

Last edited by Glyph on Fri, May 06 2011, 18:31 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I hate to say this again but, if your going to ignore light don't RP a shadowdancer. maybe I take the class a bit to seriously than is healthy but if someone walks up to you with a torch you should totally unhide, its just...the proper thing to do.

I searched a bit and back in 2010 it was said the above is an unwritten rule. the ic and ooc consequences of abusing shadowjump are likely to get you killed by the way, just...don't abuse hips, or any of the shadow skills.

triple ninja'd at this point, there is no spell resistance on light, ie "spell resistance: no" in the descript. but the other points are very valid.

ed: the item immunities, correct me if im wrong, are to the cantrip light, not light in general ?

Glyph wrote:

I hate to say this again but, if your going to ignore light don't RP a shadowdancer. maybe I take the class a bit to seriously than is healthy but if someone walks up to you with a torch you should totally unhide, its just...the proper thing to do.

If you're already in stealth mode, someone walking up to you with light makes no difference. The only time you're using shadows is when you actually Hide in Plain Sight - after that your PC is essentially hiding behind a wall, under a bed, whatever.

yes, I keep forgetting how hips is supposed to work, I was far too paranoid with my first sd, and derrin set me straight with that but it keeps sliping my mind.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

That's not entirely accurate.

To succeed on casting Light upon someone offensively, you must:

Beat a melee touch attack
Surpass their Spell Resistance
Ensure they have no level 1 and below spell immunities
Ensure they have no Globe of Invulnerability buffs
Ensure they have no Spell Mantle buffs
Ensure they have no items with Immunity: Light

If you want to hit a SD with Light, then make sure you beat all of these first, rather than running up to them and casting Light with no warning.

Yes, and if they do that, then we will enforce them being lit up. You miss the point.

You are the spell dude. To my knowledge it is an easy fix to make the spell into a touch attack and respect immunity and etc.

jimbono1 wrote:

Question. The BoT page for Continual Light = AoE light. Is that classed as AoE level 1 Light, or remains as a level 3 spell, as that is what continual light is, and what slot is being used up in the process?

Three.

Doesn't hiding in general kind of require you to be in the shadows to begin with?
Meaning if someone walked up to you with a torch or you walked right next to one it'd be kind of impossible for you to remain hidden no? Least that's how I've been told it works in PnP and this entire discussion is pretty much about that anyway.

Last edited by Glyph on Fri, May 06 2011, 18:45 PM, edited 2 times in total.

if your already hidden was the key point, if you get hit with light legit, and you go to hips, not a good idea. leg it and cornersneak maybe, you still get mechanically reduced hide from the light, but don't just hips infront of someone with a torch/wizard who just cast on you =)

ed; you can tell when you have sucessfully cornersneaked something when they turn semi-transparent on your screen, I would use this a marker to avoid abusing this method personally. (its all about fairness yup.)

TormakSaber wrote:

You are the spell dude. To my knowledge it is an easy fix to make the spell into a touch attack and respect immunity and etc.

Might as well for the sake of avoiding migraines!

The sooner we make it mechanical, the better. Fences and walls are much more effective than signs and suggestions. That has always been my opinion.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The sooner we make it mechanical, the better. Fences and walls are much more effective than signs and suggestions. That has always been my opinion.

Seconded!

That seems kinda backwards based what I know of HiPS.

Isn't HiPS supposed to wrap you in shadow? Meaning even if there is a light source close to you if you have HiPS you can wrap yourself in shadow and quickly move out of sight and hide in the darker areas.
Since any light source other then one coming from the HiPSter would undoubtedly cast shadows all around.
On the other hand if someone was sneaking through the shadows and had a searchlight cast upon them (think prison break?) then they would obviously be forced out of hiding no? Doesn't stealth work in much the same way in DnD? The closer you are to a light source the lower your Hide skill check becomes.

So it would end up something like this the way I see it.

>Sneaking through a dim passage.
>Someone approaches you with a source of light in hand.
>Your location gets revealed.
>HiPSters conceal themselves in shadows and quickly move away from the source of light and re-enter stealth.
>Non HiPSters have to run out of sight and re-enter stealth.

SLS wrote:

Doesn't stealth work in much the same way in DnD? The closer you are to a light source the lower your Hide skill check becomes.

To an extent, this already happens. Take a look at the Stealth mechanics.

Uberuce wrote:

Learn how to cornersneak, you prancing tarts?

^.^

PaladinOfSune wrote:

SLS wrote:

Doesn't stealth work in much the same way in DnD? The closer you are to a light source the lower your Hide skill check becomes.

To an extent, this already happens. Take a look at the Stealth mechanics.

Um really? Can't say I noticed. In a brightly lit room and a guy stealths right up to my face and I still can't see him.

It's a penalty, not a "you can't".

High hide can overcome it.

Light does not have a spell resistance, and as such don't require to overcome the target's spell resistance. It just requires a touch attack.. as such you can hit a level 30 drow with it from an item as long as your touch attack suceeds.

Now after it hits, the immunities come into play. If you have any one immunity needed to overcome light (or continuental flame), then the spell won't work. Lorewise darkness works to counter light as long as you remain inside it, but that also means that hide would have to be broken the moment you leave darkness, and it'd probably require too much script power behind it (heartbeats and so on, I'm sure) so it would be next to impossible to add this check for it as well. And frankly, it's not needed.. any SD that lets himself get lit alight by any spell at all deserve to get the loss of Hips, even if they have darkness on hand.

As for the spell part, I'm pretty sure that altering light to respect these things when cast on anyone but the caster or the caster's summons will take little to no time to do. It's just a few checks. It's a relativly easy fix to make and will solve the problem 90% of the time I think. Especially if it comes with a message to the target once it succeeds (and isn't blocked thanks to immunities) that they ARE lit up and hipsing now is a rule violation and merit a severe wrist slap.

Ironicly light isn't an SD's biggest enemy, it's EDK, and people with Spot (Especially mages).

To be honest though, I don't think that 'fixing' light will solve this problem completely. Not until stealth can be modified and messed with by scripts and checks along with the cooldown and until that can be done, I think all light spells should come with a -X hide penalty once they affect the target. Especially since carrying a light-source is only penalized if it's night, and it gives the spotter a -10 to the DC they have to overcome. (basically effective +10 spot)

SLS wrote:

Isn't HiPS supposed to wrap you in shadow? Meaning even if there is a light source close to you if you have HiPS you can wrap yourself in shadow and quickly move out of sight and hide in the darker areas.

Quote:

HIPS in PnP can only be used if the character is within 10 feet of a shadow.

I believe this holds true for 3.0/Amia as well. You have to use the available shadow to wrap yourself into, you don't just conjure it up.

Yes and it cannot be your own and must be bigger then your body.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's a penalty, not a "you can't".

High hide can overcome it.

So how high it should be then?

Dead wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

It's a penalty, not a "you can't".
High hide can overcome it.

So how high it should be then?

Higher than your opponents Spot

Hips, Light & Misty pots..?

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