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Naivatkal
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 Posted: Fri, May 06 2011, 22:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Feonir wrote: Yes and it cannot be your own and must be big enough to hide half of your body. Fixed
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Murex
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 0:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Gravemaskin wrote: It's a relativly easy fix to make and will solve the problem 90% of the time I think. Especially if it comes with a message to the target once it succeeds (and isn't blocked thanks to immunities) that they ARE lit up and hipsing now is a rule violation and merit a severe wrist slap.
...I think all light spells should come with a -X hide penalty once they affect the target. Especially since carrying a light-source is only penalized if it's night, and it gives the spotter a -10 to the DC they have to overcome. (basically effective +10 spot) Yes to this.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 0:45 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Why not just go ahead and mechanically implement it if possible though? You get a little message in the chatlog, you're always going to have people saying "*Sorry*, I didn't see it in the heat of battle" or "Huh, I've never seen that before."
If you really want people not to break a rule, you make it really hard to break that rule in the first place. It's why doors that say "Do not enter" are usually locked. Or they're just locked, and the message is gotten all the same.
_________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Gers
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 1:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA
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Have it pop up over their heads a la sneak attack/death attack/dev crit every time they try to hide.
_________________  Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011
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Vinasius
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 2:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 May 2007
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I'm really glad and hope this is being addressed..even though I have a shadowdancer toon with shadowjump widget more. I noticed this was so prone to abuse, especially during pvp situations or even basic rp. I have been guilty of doing this as well for the 'lulz' years ago once and i realised something was wrong and so stopped, and only when i'm on the receiving end of the stick do I notice what a pain in the arse it is. I think it should be mechanicly enforced, since everyone and their grandmother twice removed has 6 sd levels these days.
_________________
Currently starring:
Vinasis D'Magi- Calishite Merchant
Pantheros Sylvanight- Lycanlord of Malar
Artorious Godstrike- Paladin of Torm
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Glyph
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 4:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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if y'all break my favourite class ima kill somebody =/ play properly. nuff said. also what ruce said, even if you go sd.
ed: I have twice gone from 6 to 10 sd in a build, and i've tried a few builds that incorporate a heck of a lot more sd than that, still working on that idea though.
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Feonir
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 6:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Lookin at folks like a son-of-a-bitch.
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Shadowdancers have endured any kind of breaking primarily on the fact they dont deserve it as they are just a spot dump away from being any other class. People just like to tear down any class they are not to try and shore their own up. That and like back in the day 4/5ths of the design team were proper SDers anyway.
_________________  "I'm going to spend all my money on ale and whores." "Okay roll for whores." "That's 1d4 whores right?"
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 7:05 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Er... no. SD as a whole class isn't broken, it's the abuse of their fuggen GS on tap and their ignoring of the main accessible counter to that is broken.
And if you consider making your 30AC epic SD pay the price for being squishy, because suddenly he isn't completely invulnerable to non-spotter/non-mage builds, then you were already broken and didn't realize it. But broken in another way. I've literally sat and watched SD's HiPS spam their way through areas, taking god awful long, but completely safe against the AI of creatures almost twice their level because by the time they hit, they are already HiPSed again.
Besides, we wouldn't be breaking the class by mechanically enforcing the Light rule. I mean, that rule has always existed. If you notice even any difficulty adjusting to the mechanical enforcement, it likely means you weren't adhering to the rule in the first place. In which case, little to no sympathy shall you have.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Vinasius
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 10:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 May 2007
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Quote: Besides, we wouldn't be breaking the class by mechanically enforcing the Light rule. I mean, that rule has always existed. If you notice even any difficulty adjusting to the mechanical enforcement, it likely means you weren't adhering to the rule in the first place. In which case, little to no sympathy shall you have. great point
_________________
Currently starring:
Vinasis D'Magi- Calishite Merchant
Pantheros Sylvanight- Lycanlord of Malar
Artorious Godstrike- Paladin of Torm
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Shrewd
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 12:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
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Will changing light mechanics also affect the hide skill in other classes?
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
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Whispers
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 14:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 May 2005
Location: On my chair
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Put True Seeing back to normal. Im sure no Shadowprancer would mind that  .
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Analog Kid
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 15:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 May 2010
Location: The Great White North Eh!!
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Dark Immolation wrote: Er... no. SD as a whole class isn't broken, it's the abuse of their fuggen GS on tap and their ignoring of the main accessible counter to that is broken.
And if you consider making your 30AC epic SD pay the price for being squishy, because suddenly he isn't completely invulnerable to non-spotter/non-mage builds, then you were already broken and didn't realize it. But broken in another way. I've literally sat and watched SD's HiPS spam their way through areas, taking god awful long, but completely safe against the AI of creatures almost twice their level because by the time they hit, they are already HiPSed again.
Besides, we wouldn't be breaking the class by mechanically enforcing the Light rule. I mean, that rule has always existed. If you notice even any difficulty adjusting to the mechanical enforcement, it likely means you weren't adhering to the rule in the first place. In which case, little to no sympathy shall you have. Every class has a "main accessible counter". They all also have their main accessible strengths, ones that EVERYONE exploits. Mages with their WIDE variety of spells and the BoT to cutomize them. A hipsing dancer storm rolls and area and takes longer, but gets it done with little danger. Said mage does the SAME THING, only much faster with his 3 summons, epic warding, haste on everything...etc..etc. A dec criting fighter does the SAME THING even faster, again with little to no danger because of the 'instant kill'. A dancer has one ability...comparable to other classes in effectiveness and ability.....that is EASILY countered, and not just by a stupid light spell. Too many people whine when they get wtfpwned by something they don't have. Two solutions, learn how to counter an EASY tactic, or stay the hell out of PvP. And for those of you that think Dancers have it too easy PvM, you're probably right, but don't try to knock them down in the name of 'balance' and 'fairness to other classes' because EVERY CLASS can do the SAME THING a dancer can in the end. Feonir wrote: Shadowdancers have endured any kind of breaking primarily on the fact they dont deserve it as they are just a spot dump away from being any other class. People just like to tear down any class they are not to try and shore their own up. That and like back in the day 4/5ths of the design team were proper SDers anyway.
_________________
I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.
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Feonir
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 15:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Lookin at folks like a son-of-a-bitch.
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As an aside its always a minority who will ruin it for the majority, its a safe assumption that we can neatly lump in all the people who abuse hips to the same people who sit on top of bosses, exploit bugs to force fixes/profit for their own gain, are general rat- fuck meatheads.
This topic was answered like sixteen posts back and is now taking the same Anti-SD track every other post like it has for the last seven years running now. Jealosy is an awful shade no matter the brush its coming from.
_________________ "I'm going to spend all my money on ale and whores." "Okay roll for whores." "That's 1d4 whores right?"
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Uberuce
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2011, 15:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Every other class does not have a button that breaks action queues with 100% reliability and is free-action and infinite/day. That this button gives you, as a worst case scenario for any given level of Hide vs Spot whoring, a 50% chance of getting the next round's worth of attack as flatfooted Sneaks means that yes, HiPS is broken as hell.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 0:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: A dancer has one ability...comparable to other classes in effectiveness and ability.....that is EASILY countered, and not just by a stupid light spell. Too many people whine when they get wtfpwned by something they don't have. Two solutions, learn how to counter an EASY tactic, or stay the hell out of PvP. Ruce answeed it but I'm feeling spiteful and I want to quote this just to tell you how incredibly balls out wrong you are.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Shrewd
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 1:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
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So back on topic, the anser was: PaladinOfSune wrote: To succeed on casting Light upon someone offensively, you must:
Beat a melee touch attack
Surpass their Spell Resistance
Ensure they have no level 1 and below spell immunities
Ensure they have no Globe of Invulnerability buffs
Ensure they have no Spell Mantle buffs
Ensure they have no items with Immunity: Light
If you want to hit a SD with Light, then make sure you beat all of these first, rather than running up to them and casting Light with no warning. And this is the case, until something can change mechanically. Right? My thoughts on SD's in general are this: - HiPS is the core attraction to the class, and it's core ability. - HiPS spam is not abuse, provided you are not under the effects of light, and have shadows within 10ft. - Using HiPS is exactly this: Being able to use the hide skill whilst in plain sight, as a free action. - Things that are fair enough to be upset about on an OOC level in regards to the use of HiPS: Abuse of light/shadow. - Things that arn't fair to be upset about on an OOC level in regards to the use of HiPS: HiPS spam in proper conditions, the IC attitude of any Dancer, the way Dancers use HiPS to their advantage. - HiPS is a free action, so shouldn't be put on a countdown timer. - If something is done to change HiPS, will that also affect other classes that use the Hide skill? Also, keep in mind that Dancers can also hide normally, they don't -have- to use HiPS every time. If you break line of sight, then hide, even when there are no shadows, then this is a valid use of the hide skill. (Mind you, not a valid use of HiPS.) - Something to keep in mind: HiPS is beaten by high spot, Umberhulk, Dragon, Wyrmling, Rakshasa, Light, Continual Light, and any number of combinations of spells that mages can think up. There are many, many tactics to beat a HiPS spammer.
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 1:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Shrewd wrote: So back on topic, the anser was: PaladinOfSune wrote: To succeed on casting Light upon someone offensively, you must:
Beat a melee touch attack
Ensure they have no items with Immunity: Light
If you want to hit a SD with Light, then make sure you beat all of these first, rather than running up to them and casting Light with no warning. It'd be this, since I had a brain fart and forgot Light was not subject to Spell Resistance, but yeah. _________________  "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Shrewd
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 1:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
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Alright, so 0-1 Immunity, Spell Mantle, Globe of In don't count?
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 1:49 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Spells that aren't subject to spell resistance aren't blocked by immunities, mechanically speaking.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Shrewd
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 1:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
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But by that reasoning, Immunity to Light wouldn't work either?
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
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Analog Kid
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 2:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 May 2010
Location: The Great White North Eh!!
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[reposted}
_________________
I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.
Last edited by Analog Kid on Sun, May 08 2011, 2:17 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Analog Kid
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 2:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 May 2010
Location: The Great White North Eh!!
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Quote: A dancer has one ability...comparable to other classes in effectiveness and ability.....that is EASILY countered, and not just by a stupid light spell. Too many people whine when they get wtfpwned by something they don't have. Two solutions, learn how to counter an EASY tactic, or stay the hell out of PvP. Quote: Ruce answeed it but I'm feeling spiteful and I want to quote this just to tell you how incredibly balls out wrong you are. Being 'spiteful' isnt very conducive to a topic of opinion and perspective......just sayin >.>[/quote] Quote: So back on topic, the anser was:
To succeed on casting Light upon someone offensively, you must:
Beat a melee touch attack
Surpass their Spell Resistance
Ensure they have no level 1 and below spell immunities
Ensure they have no Globe of Invulnerability buffs
Ensure they have no Spell Mantle buffs
Ensure they have no items with Immunity: Light
If you want to hit a SD with Light, then make sure you beat all of these first, rather than running up to them and casting Light with no warning. Quote: And this is the case, until something can change mechanically. Right?
My thoughts on SD's in general are this:
- HiPS is the core attraction to the class, and it's core ability.
- HiPS spam is not abuse, provided you are not under the effects of light, and have shadows within 10ft.
- Using HiPS is exactly this: Being able to use the hide skill whilst in plain sight, as a free action.
- Things that are fair enough to be upset about on an OOC level in regards to the use of HiPS: Abuse of light/shadow.
- Things that arn't fair to be upset about on an OOC level in regards to the use of HiPS: HiPS spam in proper conditions, the IC attitude of any Dancer, the way Dancers use HiPS to their advantage.
- HiPS is a free action, so shouldn't be put on a countdown timer.
- If something is done to change HiPS, will that also affect other classes that use the Hide skill? Also, keep in mind that Dancers can also hide normally, they don't -have- to use HiPS every time. If you break line of sight, then hide, even when there are no shadows, then this is a valid use of the hide skill. (Mind you, not a valid use of HiPS.)
- Something to keep in mind: HiPS is beaten by high spot, Umberhulk, Dragon, Wyrmling, Rakshasa, Light, Continual Light, and any number of combinations of spells that mages can think up. There are many, many tactics to beat a HiPS spammer.
_________________
I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 2:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Okay, fine fine. Coming from a guy who's played a Shadowdancer character near exclusively for over six years now:
Hide in Plain Sight is overpowered.
Does it need a nerf? Yep. Is it going to get one? Not right now.
I'm afraid you'll have to wait for the person with the appropriate skills to make himself available again before it's a possibility. When it is, the change will be discussed amongst the balance team and decided upon.
Until then, I'm afraid this is rhetoric of little point.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Bob
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 5:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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Tsk tsk, overpowered is an understatement really.
Its broken. Its up there amongst broken mage spells like bigby's and GS and it has the honour of not being a mage spell!
p.s. Timestop is on a whole 'nother level.
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Shrewd
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 11:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
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I disagree. Yes, it's overpowered. But that is what the class is. I'm glad to hear it won't be nerfed immediately. And my fingers are crossed that it won't be nerfed at all.
The minority who abuse it should be dealt with.
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 12:40 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Shrewd wrote: But by that reasoning, Immunity to Light wouldn't work either? Technically, no. But remember, Darkness and Greater Darkness get rid of Light. I suppose we could add something that takes off the Light spell if the person goes into an area of darkness. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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o-Mirage-o
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 20:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 May 2010
Location: Alberta -Mountain Time-
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Just a quick question to prompt you guys here. Does darkvision work in the way that the user can see through darkness; and if it does, than can a SD still hide in plain sight if someone can see in the dark?
I don't get it, there are tons of things that can hide in the daylight including humanoids. Just because something can use shadows to its advantage doesn't really mean they can hide better right? A shadow dancer with 5 hide skills points wont be able to hide from very much regardless if he can move through the shadows and what not.
What I'm really trying to get at here is that things can hide in normal lighting, and for someone with bad spot, they wouldn't even know that they were there. So in reality, an SD can still hide in the light from someone.
_________________  Arkanis Bloodcloak, Tiefling Assassin
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 21:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Just because you can see in the shadow doesn't mean the shadow isn't there.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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o-Mirage-o
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 21:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 May 2010
Location: Alberta -Mountain Time-
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So how does an SD hide in plain sight using the shadows if one can see through the shadows?
_________________ Arkanis Bloodcloak, Tiefling Assassin
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Silvarus
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 21:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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Magic, with a serving of lameness and cheese. 
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 21:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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o-Mirage-o wrote: So how does an SD hide in plain sight using the shadows if one can see through the shadows? Quote: Just because you can see in the shadow doesn't mean the shadow isn't there. How much more obvious do you need it made?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Shrewd
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 22:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Sydney
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They hide in the same way they normally do: By dancing, gathering the shadows, and throwing them into an illusion in order to distract someone whilst they hide. If a person has Darkvision and can see in basic shadow, that's fine, and they'd see you up until the point you hide.
_________________
Aravain, Champion of Song.
Anar, a dark elf.
Giovanni, Blood Knight.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2011, 23:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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No ,that is not what they do. They use shadows like a normal person uses cover. Regardless of if you can see through shadows, for the purposes of a Shdaowdancer using HIPS, that shadow is the equivalent of a three foot thick wall to hide behind. Being able to see in the dark has nothing to do with it.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Murex
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Posted: Mon, May 09 2011, 1:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Don't nerf HIPS to punish the abusers of HIPS, because some of us don't abuse it. Also, if you think it's still too powerful, maybe make some changes that allow for higher Spot Rolls to be made (items with +10 to Spot, modifications to Darkvision or spells that also add a good bonus to spot...).
I also have to say that HIPS can only be used in dark areas, so not having the ability in lit areas is a weakness. Alot of it has to do with being smart rather than just crying because a character got owned by an assassin SD when being an idiot in the Underdark. It's a great ability, but only in the right location, and it can be countered.
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Mon, May 09 2011, 1:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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My primary PC is a Shadowdancer and I'm pushing for it to be nerfed. It's overpowered.
Anyway, this is when I conveniently say the original poster's question was answered. More details will come when a time for this to be looked at is even feasible - right now, it isn't.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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