AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

It's been almost 5 years since I last played Drow in Amia, thus I'm a little rusty on alot've rules and whatnot within that society.

Are Males permitted to take Cleric levels, and if so are they limited to a certain circle of spells or level of Cleric being taken? - This is relative to Lolth only, I'm not all too concerned with the other Deities.

If not, then the prior question then applies to Selvetarm.

Male Lolthite clerics... generally shouldn't exist. I think there is some writing about them that says they can exist, but they don't really have a good way of things. So I'm fairly sure you could play one, but you might not have a fun time interacting even with other Lolthites (and everyone else will just hate you at face value).

Male clerics of Selvetarm have no such restriction. Go nuts with it. They're quite acceptable in fact.

Yeah I'd figured as much about Lolth. Thanks for the clarification mate.

There have been some in the past but its a very odd concept.
If you want a male cleric that hangs around in the Lolthlite society then Selvetarm makes more sense.

The more hard-core attitude (which I prefer, though I acknowledge that this is just opinion) is that there's no such thing as a male Lolthite. Cleric or otherwise.

Males don't serve Lolth. Males serve females. Females serve Lolth.

Lizzie wrote:

The more hard-core attitude (which I prefer, though I acknowledge that this is just opinion) is that there's no such thing as a male Lolthite. Cleric or otherwise.

Males don't serve Lolth. Males serve females. Females serve Lolth.

Yes but I don't see myself putting "Female" in my Deity box. I don't want to do a prayer and begin lactating.

If you're interested in a male, drow, cleric then you're good to go for Selvetarm. That's the evil side.

I'm not sure what those cuddly, huggly Eilistraeens are doing.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

If you're interested in a male, drow, cleric then you're good to go for Selvetarm. That's the evil side.

I'm not sure what those cuddly, huggly Eilistraeens are doing.

They turn you into a full-blown chick for a year or longer. *Nodnod*

Male Llothite clerics do exist. They're incredibly rare though, like rarer than 1/10000. They're also generally targets of derision from both genders, as well as more than their share of assassination attempts. Selvetarm is generally the patron of drow males.

Also, Eilistraeen male clerics also exist. Again, extremely rare and sometimes the target of susipscion. And BoB is right: for the character to be truely lore-accurate, he'd have had to have spent about 1 year at least as a female, after experiencing a ritual known as the Changedance.

Male clerics of Lolth exist (Demihuman Deities clearly states so), but I haven't read about them being subjects of ridicule. They're still clergy of the Goddess, and I imagine any male looking down on them would get a good flogging (depending on the location and the status of the church, of course).

The faith of Selvetarm is rare as hell too, and I'd rather see the odd low-level, low-status priest of Lolth rather than an army of supposedly exotic Selvetargtlin.

Gers's numbers are a little off. Male priests of Lolth certainly aren't rarer than 1/1000. At the time Demihuman Deities describes, 4% of his clergy is male. That's four priests to every 96 priestesses. The numbers could change a little over the years, but considering the longevity of drow and the lack of any notable social changes that would lead us to believe otherwise, there's no reason to assume it's much different nowadays.

IronAngel wrote:

... there's no reason to assume it's much different nowadays.

The reason to assume different would be if we're told different by a DM. I don't mean for that to be as snotty as it probably comes off... I just mean to say that on Amia, the Amia DM's lore preferences have the power to override printed FR lore, right?

Last edited by IronAngel on Sat, Jun 04 2011, 20:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Lizzie wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

... there's no reason to assume it's much different nowadays.

The reason to assume different would be if we're told different by a DM. I don't mean for that to be as snotty as it probably comes off... I just mean to say that on Amia, the Amia DM's lore preferences have the power to override printed FR lore, right?

Yes, but the DMs would have no reason to assume otherwise and therefore make such a call. It's not like they just make ad hoc changes to lore only to suit their whims that day. Sure, there might be a plot which changes this for Amia, but we generally don't have random lore changes on Amia for no reason. If the DMs decide otherwise, I bet there'll be a in-game plot to go with it. Otherwise it would be a pretty pointless change just for the sake of messing with documented lore, wouldn't it?

By and large, the DMs are interested in staying true to the setting just as much as the players, or at least knowing what the FR reality is and being aware of why and what changes they've made on Amia. That's why it's relevant to argue on the basis of Forgotten Realms, even against DMs; they may change things, but any good and responsible change will account for the canon lore. There's a difference between diverging from canon intentionally, and doing so by accident due to lack of information.

When all else fails: Vhaeraun.

Well, I recall one source or another saying that male clerics are ridiculed, but can't remember it by name. But it is easy to infer. They're serving a goddess that says males are inferior in rather clear terms. A priestess that sees a male cleric might suspect- suspicion being a huge factor in drow society- that the male is trying to make himself equal with her. Or Lloth forbid have some sort of authority over her in the clergy. It's just a very tricky thing. It's not exactly anathema, but it's certainly a bit of a taboo I imagine.

Last edited by IronAngel on Sat, Jun 04 2011, 20:34 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Well, I recall one source or another saying that male clerics are ridiculed, but can't remember it by name. But it is easy to infer. They're serving a goddess that says males are inferior in rather clear terms. A priestess that sees a male cleric might suspect- suspicion being a huge factor in drow society- that the male is trying to make himself equal with her. Or Lloth forbid have some sort of authority over her in the clergy. It's just a very tricky thing. It's not exactly anathema, but it's certainly a bit of a taboo I imagine.

Well, I guess that would depend on the social circumstance. Yeah, they're probably be bullied within the clergy. However, to the outside world, they still represent the church of Lolth, the Establishment looming above all drow life. Shaming them in public would also shame the church. They were, after all, accepted and trained by the high priestesses if they made it far enough to become priests. It's not like they got their position on their own. The drow may not be big on solidarity, but they know the importance of PR and social status. The church must present a unified front that tolerates no attack against it.

Every drow male is a Lolthite society will have to serve Lolth, anyway; despite what she's perceived to teach about the genders. I'm not sure how having more power and influence, and the exceptional blessing of the goddess, would be a cause of more ridicule than being a groveling infantryman worshiping the goddess, tbh.

But yeah, it would be an interesting situation, and definetely tricky and uncomfortable. Every situation is unique and affected by the customs and practices of its social environment, so there's no "real" and "right" way to treat a priest of Lolth. It'll have to be decided in RP.

I don't know of any other canon sources than Demihuman Deities, so I can't say for sure. That one has nothing but a brief mention about the statistics. There's more hear-say and second-hand homebrew on drow floating around Amia than hard canon facts, though. I imagine most things players hold as granted about drow are actually just nonsense, gleaned from fan fiction, video games and other settings, or more likely forum discussions like this. At least that was the case when I played drow.

I played a very succesful male cleric of Salvetarm for a long time back in the old Underdark, he rose to great prominance within the city and was widely respected by both genders.

Male priests of Lolth do exist and though they have less pull than a female cleric, they certainly are the one of the most respected among other males.

A male cleric of Lolth who is ridiculed is any cleric of Lolth who is ridiculed, and they are treated as such.

In a sense a male cleric of Lolth is given to understand that the females are their betters. So much so that they are in fact priests of Lolth.

It is a widely known fact that most non cleric males are embittered about their lot in life. Most actually envy and are jealous of the females and their power. A Male cleric of Lolth understands this role, lives this role, and loves it. A male cleric of Lolth knows chaos, but knows their place better than any other type of male(including Selvetarglins).....so much so in fact that they are made clerics of Lolth.

I've got a bit of a different take on it. One of the main things about Llothism, is that despite it's dedication to chaos, normality is literally enforced. Anyone with any sort of "defect" or unusual behavior, unless they've accumulated a lot of power (be it magical, divine, economic, or other), is generally viewed as inferior, or a threat, and as a target for elimination. A good example of this is the eccentric Jarlaxle. If not for his personal and military power, he'd have been eliminated long ago as a threat to the status quo. I believe this extends so far that often, Llothite drow children born with blue or green eyes are killed at birth, due to allegedly being tainted with surface elven blood.

Yep, The Drow, like the Elves, have a strangely strong "lawful" take on a lot of things for being so "chaotic" as the lore books claim. I always felt the two were more neutral, really. But that's neither here nor there.

Point is, male clerics of Lolth exist. If you're going to make it, go ahead. Just be ready for a much tougher and harsher road ahead of you than a female would have! But hey, that's half the fun, right?

I have no clue what books you read to come up with that assumption. There are so many historic characters in the novels(which are in fact based off the canon lore) that are male, have power, and/or regarded as deformed, and still tolerated and even respected.

Triel has a half demon, half drow son for starters. Then there was the one known as the Faceless one. Jarlaxle. There was a male known as the Fox, who sported a red mane. Uthagental del armgo sported green hair in a mohawk and wore dwarven plate and wielded a trident. Uthergental(sp?) also was unusually tall for a male and ungainly.

The main villain in the Liriel books walked in an awkward manner, smelled like rother dung for a while too.....but she ended up sporting a skeletal snake whip, brought Quenthel Baenre back to life, and ended up ruling over her house, though she was a female.

Drizzt himself had violet eyes and was spared for it....in fact it also states in Races of Faerun that drow do not all have red eyes, some have so pale they're almost white among other colors. And no where in their detailing did they say it was an abomination or frowned upon.

Amia's website should have a more descriptive idea of what they think drow society is like and the vast differences between it's culture and the drow culture of anywhere else....

Honestly I see all the faked strictness, without any of the actual "fake". Just strictness without any idea that the strictness is in fact what it really is....an illusion.

1.) Citing characters from the novels doesn't really work as they're special just by the fact that the author decided to put extra thought into them and gave them a proper name as opposed to just "the guard" or "the slave".

2.) Triel's half-demon son, Jeggred, was a draegloth. Draegloth's are the result of a part of a ritual in which a priestess mates with a glabrezu. As part of one of Lolth's most holy rites draegloth's are viewed with extreme reverence by the drow and any priestess lucky enough to get knocked up during the ritual is seen to be favored by Lolth herself.

3.) I haven't read that particular series of books, but the FRwiki says that Quenthel Baenre was raised by personal decree of Lolth and didn't make any mention of being raised by any particular priestess. Though, being female and leading a house is nothing special, the drow are matriarchal after all.

4.) Drow can have just about any eye color. The one they watch out for is green. That's the color that hints at surface elf blood. I can't remember the exact source right now, though I wish I could, but I can almost swear that violet eyes are extremely rare on drow and not viewed as a "defect" but as a mark of something special.

5.) I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "faked strictness". I have the feeling that it's some jab at the rigid RP that comes hand-in-hand with Lolthite drow RP, but I could just be misreading it. The pure and simple fact of the matter is actually quite simple and is very applicable to the thought of a male Lolthite priest. There is one rule that stands head and shoulders above all others in drow society. It is as follows:

Do whatever you want until someone more powerful catches you and it's only illegal if you get caught.

What exactly powerful is is defined by a multitude of factors. The first few that come to mind are; can the person kick your ass? Do they have more friends in high places than you do? Are they a priestess? Do they hold a higher rank within whatever academy and/or house you belong to?

IronAngel wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

... there's no reason to assume it's much different nowadays.

The reason to assume different would be if we're told different by a DM....

Yes, but the DMs would have no reason to assume otherwise and therefore make such a call...

The reason I made the remark is because it appeared to me that Gers had done just what I said, overriding a printed source someone quoted and substituting Amia-specific lore (in this case, regarding the frequency of male drow clerics). Or, just as likely in this case (I think), maybe he didn't override established lore so much as he resolved a conflict between any number of the half-trillion sources of "canon" drow lore, thereby defining which source holds sway on Amia. Gers is always free to tell me I'm full of crap, of course.

ainjyll wrote:

4.) Drow can have just about any eye color. The one they watch out for is green. That's the color that hints at surface elf blood. I can't remember the exact source right now, though I wish I could, but I can almost swear that violet eyes are extremely rare on drow and not viewed as a "defect" but as a mark of something special.

I've not read the Drizzt books in quite a while, but one of the things I think I'm remembering pretty clearly is that D's violet eyes were viewed (by his sisters, at least) as being unsettlingly weird, not because purple eyes were established by long tradition as being special, but rather because purple eyes were completely unheard of, and (as Gers mentioned) anything physically out of the norm for a drow is viewed as suspicious at best.

Actually, I believe that his purple eyes made them believe he was blind at first, until they noticed they were following their fingers when they moved.

Actually outside the novels(which I also have read though) many things are cited like that in the History of Faerun which is a reference book based on the timeline of Faerun itself.

And in it when Quenthel does take over Menzoberranzan her main nemesis and opponent is none other than Gromph, a male.

And actually the Oblodra's ALL had green eyes and were telepath's. Their House was the house sent into the Clawrift(but only for trying control of the city and failing, no for having green eyes), and they are also the reason Jarlaxle is even alive at all.

Oh and though they are in the novels, their fall into the clawrift is marked in the history of Faerun, because it occured at the worst moment, the time of troubles, probably a reason why the fell, Lolth was angry they were trying to destroy the First House when the whole city was already weakened.

edited: And yes they thought his eyes were strange, but they kept him alive anyways didn't they? In this case to their ulimate peril, but the same cannot be said for Jeggred, nor Jarlaxle.

I do agree that being different will get you bullied in drow society, just like in ours. I don't agree with the extreme interpretations that it would be cause of euthanasia at birth or something like that. Despite what Lolthite propaganda would have you believe, drow have essentially an exotic and diverse culture full of oddities. I guess it's a matter of aesthetic preference, but I certainly can't imagine drow culture as a gray and homogenous monolith of authoritarism. It doesn't really fit the lively picture of the bustle of city streets painted in many descriptions of drow society. I don't see drow as being particularly jumpy and conservative when it comes to quirks. They are ultimately individualistic and opportunistic, and it's one's merit and usefulness that determines their future, not their eye color. Drow ethics are very lax and they're not known to be people of principle, so they should be able to put such things aside if they anticipate profit. On the other hand, if a drow wants to get you in trouble he hardly needs the excuse of eye color or strange occupation to do that. They may be fuel for the fire, but I can't see them being anyone's primary motivation for acting against you.

But, I guess it depends on how you play your own drow. Boobookitty's example's are sound (though I can't attest to all the details since I haven't read such books in years), and while it doesn't mean they represent the norm it certainly does prove that we need to be cautious about making contrary generalisations.

Well, even in cases where you'd be inclined to kill drow with certain traits at birth, I'm sure there are perfectly reasonable reasons not to. Lack of descendents/heirs, need for loyal (or more likely to be loyal rather) underlings, need soldiers or whatever. Drow death rate is quite high, even with their supposed higher reproductive rate than elves and stuff? So some would be motivated to keep in the lean times what they'd throw away in... the not-lean times. Or they'll take a chance on using their albino drow kid as a spy or something, despite common sense. I dunno.

Anyway... I have a question, which is sort of pertinent to this general topic. Male clerics of Lolth is fine, or so the general consensus here goes. So. Is there a reasonable possibility for a female cleric of Selvetarm? I uh, probably should've asked this six months ago, but that's another story... As far as I know, cleric-hood is a question of aptitude for divine magic, and usually those females who show it would go straight into Lolth's temple. So is there a reasonable possibility that something else happens?

serbiris wrote:

Well, even in cases where you'd be inclined to kill drow with certain traits at birth, I'm sure there are perfectly reasonable reasons not to. Lack of descendents/heirs, need for loyal (or more likely to be loyal rather) underlings, need soldiers or whatever. Drow death rate is quite high, even with their supposed higher reproductive rate than elves and stuff? So some would be motivated to keep in the lean times what they'd throw away in... the not-lean times. Or they'll take a chance on using their albino drow kid as a spy or something, despite common sense. I dunno.

Anyway... I have a question, which is sort of pertinent to this general topic. Male clerics of Lolth is fine, or so the general consensus here goes. So. Is there a reasonable possibility for a female cleric of Selvetarm? I uh, probably should've asked this six months ago, but that's another story... As far as I know, cleric-hood is a question of aptitude for divine magic, and usually those females who show it would go straight into Lolth's temple. So is there a reasonable possibility that something else happens?

To add to the first paragraph, we must make a distinction between high nobility for whom the quality and status of their heirs means everything - such as the Do'Urdens and Baenres described in the novels - and the vast majority of drow commoners who have little interest or possibility to play the political game. You can't generalise average drow attitudes from the example of a very small, very powerful elite minority.

Regarding the second paragraph, yes. There are female Selvetargtlin, though they are a minority. As Demihuman Deities says:

Quote:

The clergy of Selvetarm includes both
male (70%) and female dark elves (8%) as well as male (15%)
and female aranea (7%). Selvetarm's clergy includes specialty
priests (35%), crusaders (25%), cleric/fighters (20%), fighters
(15%, including nonpriest multiclassed fighters), and clerics
(5%).

The class percentages are somewhat moot because 3e classes are different, but it should give a good idea about what kind of specialization is popular in the church. In this case, it's obviously combat skills.

Somehow I forgot about that distinction. Bah, it's been a while since I've been called upon to think of a functioning, mainstream drow society...

Anyway, thank you for that. I was worried for a bit. I'd read something similar, but it was unclear as to whether they were talking about a female worshipper (which would probably be less problematic) or an actual female cleric of Selvie. Though it makes me sad that they're a minority of a minority. Little bit. I'm okay with it. Maybe.

As Iron said, eye color won't get you killed. However, it will be something that gets stored in the back of a drow's head for later. Something akin to, "I knew they'd do [insert mess up here]. They've got green eyes." To me, it would be the more extreme differences that would possibly get a drow killed at birth. Club foot, shriveled arm, mental handicap, blind, deaf, mute, freakishly big (giant) or freakishly small (midget)... things like that.

IronAngel wrote:

... we must make a distinction between high nobility for whom the quality and status of their heirs means everything - such as the Do'Urdens and Baenres described in the novels - and the vast majority of drow commoners who have little interest or possibility to play the political game. You can't generalise average drow attitudes from the example of a very small, very powerful elite minority.

Great point.

And just for giggles, I made my boyfriend dig his copy of Homeland out of a box in our basement. (He's such an obedient jaluk, haha.) Here's the snips relevant to the discussion:

Homeland wrote:

"Look at his eyes," Vierna whispered to Maya as they examined the newest member of House Do'Urden.

Truly the babe's eyes were remarkable. Although the child had been out of the womb for less than an hour, the pupils of his orbs darted back and for inquisitively. While they showed the expected radiating glow of eyes seeing into the infrared spectrum, the familiar redness was tinted by a shade of blue, giving them a violet hue.

"Blind?" wondered Maya. "Perhaps this one will be given to the Spider Queen still."

Briza looked back to them anxiously. Dark elves did not allow children showing any physical deficiency to live.

"Not blind," replied Vierna, passing her hand over the child and casting an angry glare at both of her eager sisters. "He follows my fingers."

Maya saw that Vierna spoke the truth. She leaned closer to the babe, studying his face and strange eyes. "What do you see, Drizzt Do'Urden?" she asked softly, not in an act of gentleness toward the babe, but so that she would not disturb her mother, resting in the chair at the head of the spider idol.

"What do you see that the rest of us cannot?"

Then later...

Homeland wrote:

"His eyes," Vierna said again.

The matron shot her a venomous look but bent to see what the fuss was about.

"Purple?" Malice said, startled. Never had she heard of such a thing.

P.S.: Even as I'm typing this, I realize how silly it is to obsess the way we do over drow eye color. It seems to be built in to the way we think about drow, for some reason... I don't think I've ever seen a PC bio of a drow that didn't mention the PC's eye color, often in painstaking detail. I don't intend that as a criticism; I've done the same thing myself. It just seems, on reflection, to be a rather silly thing to get all hyperventilated over.

See? It wasn't difference that the females were worried over, it was whether he was deficient or not. There were more worried that he was blind than the color of his eyes.

Now when it comes to "deficiencies"(blindness, deafness, missing limbs, mental retardation) then yes the drow will kill said deficient drow.

But NOT for their eye color, hair color, nor size. As long as you can fight or otherwise provie a use, you still get to live.

BTW the commoners are even worse....they are the blind, one legged, deaf, mentally retarded drow that get killed. Commoners have a tendency to have more deficient drow around....they are common after all.

I'd like to point out that it is a standard practice for drow to dye their hair different colors. So, a drow with dyed red hair would be fine, but a drow born with red hair is a completely different matter.

That's also untrue. Uthagental did in fact dye his hair green.

But the Fox didn't. He was born with red hair.

I think the key word is "deficiency". Whatever is different has to actually make the drow less than other drow.

Hair color is not one of those important traits that makes or breaks a drow.

The fact that I have to mention about the validity of hair color when considering what characteristics drow get killed over, it's becoming more obvious why there are so many conflicts concerning culture down there.

I any event, continuing the discourse over drow culture is like arguing wth a bible thumper. No matter how much evidence points to the correct conclusion, it's like talking to a brick wall.

But to point out a fact, there are no references that say drow are killed over eye, hair, or even skin tone....only deficiencies(stunted limbs or growth, blindness, deafness and such)

PS BTW based off your interpretation of drow canon lore Ainjyl, Drizzt would be killed and would never have lived at all, so in essence you are completely spitting in the face of canon lore and pretty much taking all history of Faerun and throwing it out the window.

Booboo... Ainjyll just said a few posts ago that he agrees that eye/hair color *isn't* among the things that will get a drow infant killed. I'm not sure who you're railing against... it seems to me like we're all in more or less agreement that an oddity like an unusual natural eye/hair color are enough to get a drow looked at funny, or even treated with suspicion or derision, but not killed.

Fair enough...I can see suspicion or derision occuring.

Anyway, as to the original question...

The consensus seems to be that yes, a male cleric of Lolth is possible, though there's some contention as to just how rare they are... 1 in 10000? 1 in 1000? 4 in 100? Whatever the case may be, they're a tiny minority, and even the source that seems to believe that as many as 4% of the clergy is male still pretty conclusively asserts that a male cleric of Lolth is a second-class member of the church:

Demihuman Deities wrote:

There are male priests of Lolth, but the Spider Queen rarely allows them to rise above the 7th level of experience.

If you're looking to be lore-accurate, then, your male cleric's levelling plan should include at least 23 levels of something not-cleric.

Well, mind that it's a 2e source and levels can't be directly translated - not to mention the level inflation on Amia. But yes, I don't think a pureclass level 30 cleric would be quite fitting - possible and not against the rules, perhaps, but thematically iffy nonetheless. Get a few levels of Fighter and maybe voluntarily stay at a lower level, and you'll do a good job of representing your poor position.

Demihuman Deities is the only sources that even discusses this subject that I'm aware of, though. It is also the single best source of lore on Lolth and her clergy. Any other numbers are just guessing, as far as we can tell so far.

My male kneels and bows in all the right places. He's a right bitch.

ainjyll wrote:

Do whatever you want until someone more powerful catches you and it's only illegal if you get caught.

What exactly powerful is, is defined by a multitude of factors. The first few that come to mind are; can the person kick your ass? Do they have more friends in high places than you do? Are they a priestess? Do they hold a higher rank within whatever academy and/or house you belong to?

And that’s pretty much it in a nutshell.

I have a female warrior who started in Ultrinnan. She was considered no better than a slave to start after all Lolth clearly rejected her - not only for priestess duties but also for arcane wielding. Over the course of months and months RL time, I managed to gain her power. It was tough going. She got thrown in jail on trumped up charges, she was beaten, made to repair the dummies in the Melee Magthere (a job for male slaves or naughty Sargtlin), told repeatedly that she wasn’t good enough to even join the Melee Magthere, left for dead if she died in a hunting party – no kidding, had to respawn and more.

What made me keep on logging her back on after such treatment? The Drow RP. It was amazing. Even the characters that made my Drowesses life miserable were amazing. I learned to take breaks so the constant watching her back didn’t get to me too much. She managed to impress an Ilharess and then capture a notorious heretic to present to the Ilharess as a gift. Even the Ul’Saruk accepted her into the Melee Magthere and the males that spit in her general direction eventually nodded and bowed to her. This does not mean that it was all wine and roses. It was a struggle, still is.

Like I’ve said in other posts, if you try a character that goes against the grain in Lolthite drow society be prepared for hardship. The players will welcome you with open arms. The characters will do everything they can think of to keep you from getting any power.

And I'd like to point out that this should not include simply killing off your rival. Drow should be more devious than that, bwaa ha ha.

Go selvegartlen, you could be a good quest for isen. I've been looking for a reason to play him over my surfacer bard. Isen was very respected in Ultrinnan, by most people at least, but the i guess it would be new leadership of edonil didnt quite see it the same way. The way I see it (which was borderline, if not outright, heresy) was that you give what you get. Isen didnt get respect in Edonil, so he didnt respect its leadership.

And now, Isen is i believe banned from the city because a few months ago he put a hammer to the high priestesses head in an ill concieved raid, making him fall like a rock.

It is important to note, however, that there is no current church of selvetarm or organization in the underdark on Amia, at least last I saw.

Pretty sure I wandered very off topic with this post.. but its 230 in the morning.

Although it's worth noting that there are probably about as many active Selvetargtlin as there are active Lolth priestesses.

...Which is really weird when you think about it.

There's only two active clergy members in the underdark?

I jest... kinda.

On the server, and not counting NPCs =P

There is actually an order of male priests of lolth listed in the forgotten realms wiki. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lolth

Its not odd, it only means that this particular part of underdark prefers champion over lolth.

When in doubt, use a girdle of femininity/masculinity.

I've been playing NwN for 7 years, that whole time mainly drow when the servers I was on permitted them. I jumped into this topic for one reason, as a long time experienced, knowledgeable drow player for many years (yeah, I rattle off full sentences in actual drow to piss people off if they annoy me), even I can learn something new about the culture, when I played my first drow in PnP (AD&D) 20+ years ago... Male Lolthite clerics were unheard of and strongly discouraged if not completely disallowed and I've been playing with that reference ever since. But then, when I first played an Eilistreean, they hid, even on the surface, never did they openly state they followed l'Olath Wenress (The Dark Maiden), to do so was to sign your death warrant and would get you hunted by any Underdark drow for points with the Yathrinen (Priestesses), same with openly admitting to being a cleric of Vhaeraun or Selvetarm. Selvetarm is noted as being Lolth's lover, but theirs is a hate filled relationship, she constantly seeks to remind him he's a male and therefore unworthy of her, that she tolerates his attentions for her own designs. As stated, male drow clerics should be rare in any case, takes a strong person to stand up to a society and drow males are so subjugated by the females, most have not the strength to thwart conventions, but male clerics of Lolth even more rare, in a server population of 20 drow, 1/3rd being males, maximum of 2 should be clerics of any sort, the rest mostly fighters, followed by rogue/assassins, then wizards. Traditionally, the only -real- way for a male to gain power is as a wizard, though in rare cases warriors or rogues have gained power as well by finding favor with an Ilharess (Matron). ...and I go off on a tangent, forgive me, its 5:14 am, but there's my two cents.

I have one drow on Amia, a houseless female temple assassin. I have not gotten much 'drow' RP with her, but have had some rather enjoyable RP with surfacers as she refuses to speak the languages of the slave races, though she understands most of them perfectly. Maybe one day she'll no longer be content tweaking V's nose and taunting him.

L'elamshin d'l'Ilythiiri zhah ulu har'luth jal!

"The destiny of the Drow is to conquer all!

//edited for Ainjyll's poor eyes

I'd love to read that post, but the color is too dark.

I agree that in the world of D&D, male drow clerics are rare. I also agree that male drow Lolth clerics are much more rare than that.

HOWEVER!

If suddenly a huge number of male drow lolth clerics start showing up, I think that it should be handled in character, and not with a boneheaded OOC statement like, "You shouldn't exist." If a bunch of players decided to role-play male drow lolth clerics all at the same time (which I doubt will ever happen), that would be a VERY interesting role-playing experience. One that would be missed, if those players were discouraged from doing so OOC.

This brings me to my main point. My main reason why I have not played Amia in so long is because of OOC "role-play police" going around saying, "You can't do that because you wouldn't be able to do that in character." Seriously people. Flex your creative muscles, and find a way to deal with people that created something that is very odd and maintain your character. If you can't do that, your role-play is weak.

joe15552 wrote:

If suddenly a huge number of male drow lolth clerics start showing up, I think that it should be handled in character, and not with a boneheaded OOC statement like, "You shouldn't exist." If a bunch of players decided to role-play male drow lolth clerics all at the same time (which I doubt will ever happen), that would be a VERY interesting role-playing experience. One that would be missed, if those players were discouraged from doing so OOC.

This brings me to my main point. My main reason why I have not played Amia in so long is because of OOC "role-play police" going around saying, "You can't do that because you wouldn't be able to do that in character." Seriously people. Flex your creative muscles, and find a way to deal with people that created something that is very odd and maintain your character. If you can't do that, your role-play is weak.

I don't.... Particularly agree with that.

IC context doesn't start when you create your character because there is an established setting to go with it.

Just because bunch of people decided to go against the grain to be "atypical" doesn't make them any less strange in accordance Lore. It just makes them a group of freaks, not some kind of majority just because they happen to be the most active players at the time.

Also, do realize level 1 characters for the most part don't randomly get their skills at birth. Even sorcerers. This is particularly true for clerics who takes years and years to learn the divine gift, as well as their deity's dogma, and so forth. I have hard time believing any Lolthite society would be willingly train or allow a horde of males this kind of training. In fact, if bunch of males started doing it, it'd only heighten your chances of being killed and being viewed as a threat, before you even get to level 1.

Being lore inappropriate isn't interesting. If you don't want to play in a setting that has a concrete establishment, don't play a drow. It's like the worst choice to decide to go rogue.

Male Lolthite Clerics?

Who is online