AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Hak Class Changes

psycho wrote:

Rogues never ever got one single "boon" to them, contrarily to now -all- (thanks to the new changes which are great btw) classes. Rogues never, ever, ever, got -one single- extra, be it RP, mechanical, whatsover, nada. ALL other classes did.

Nope, not true. Some other classes never got "boons" either but only nerfs instead even.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

The only thing rogue has over assassin now is skill points and bonus feats every three levels instead of four, aside from the Evil-only part for assassins. Seems a bit skewed to me, but I like the additions, even if I'll probably never play an assassin.

That's not an 'only' thing. That's a huge thing.

A level 19 rogue has four bonus feats. A level 19 assassin only has two. When the difference between an epic skill focus or epic save feat makes a character 50% more effective that is a huge, huge thing. Additionally, most of the better rogue builds simply aren't viable as an assassin because it's a prestige class, not a base class. The lack of Epic Dodge didn't balance an assassin in comparison to a rogue, it made them shit.

Add in the fact assassins gain half the skill points per level and things are not nearly in favour of the assassin as you may believe.

RE Rogues: They don't need boons. Some of the most deadly non-caster builds are heavy in rogue because the class is simply that good.

You see those cute trap upgrades on page 1?

Even if a Rogue doesn't take Master Scout, they can buy those off someone who has and upgrade their traps. Same with the bombs, rogues will love at least one of those.

I won't argue rogues "aren't good".

But regarding the fact they're "just that good", I disagree.

For example, I have a lvl 30 sorceress.

She made seven million so easily, it's laughable.

Could solo epic areas almost no classes could ever -dream- of at ecl 21.

She just practically dances through monsters like a hot knife through room temperature butter, and she's no powerbuild. Plain sorceress.

Mages have been given "boons", epic summons are practically equivalent to average level 25 pc's, three different summons per spell level, BOT pages, etc etc.

They where -already- , without the "boons", extremely powerful and -still- got some. Where the "boons" added for "balance" reasons? Because they where "too weak" ?

It's not just about -balance-, I believe.

I just find it's a shame a wonderful RP class like the Rogue seems to not get the merit it deserves. It's as if it where more considered a "skill dump" class than one that would deserve some time and investment on developpers part. Y'know, just for -flavor-.

I would frankly be curious to see the percentage, throughout all characters on the server, where each PC has more than 3 rogue levels, amongst ones who have rogue levels -period-.

My bet would be 5%.

That said, I wish to congratulate you concerning other class changes, especially the Harper Scout and Purple Dragon ones.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

A Knight Commander's main feature is their auras. They gain up to five, one each level, and each one has its own function, ranging from slowing down the movement speed of all enemies in the proximity (as well as making them easier to hit with Attacks of Opportunity) to imparting all allies with a physical-based damage shield. A Knight Commander can change the flow of battle entirely through simply changing their auras. Want to help your mages deal extra damage with their spells? They have an aura for that. Want to combat mind-effecting spell heavy monsters? They have an aura for that.

When I first made Rick Belhewn, I imagined him as a character that spent the majority of his time in fighting forces as the entertainer, the joker, the one who kept everyone moving. To reflect this, I made him nothing special in combat, and a terrible spellcaster. The idea was to get some Aura items and use those to demonstrate his effect on the troops. I never found any aura items. But now Rick is actually going to be able to be the character I always envisioned him to be.

Thank you.

I will have your babies.

psycho wrote:

I won't argue rogues "aren't good".

But regarding the fact they're "just that good", I disagree.

For example, I have a lvl 30 sorceress.

Caster classes should never be compared with anything non-caster, and soloing with a DEX Rogue without a summon is plain self-torture. And yes, I'm saying "of course Sorcerer wins Rogue by default". I am not saying it should be so, I am merely saying it is so and has always been.

The epic summons are being looked into and being balanced. Why they were added in the first place, was because there was not too vast an array of summons for non-evil casters to pick from. So, virtually, it put casters of all alignments on an even par, even if it did not help the non-caster classes' case.

BoT pages are there to bring variation to the task of the mage, not to directly enhance it. Powerwise, their focus is solely to make unloved things more lovable (spell schools, weapon choices, et al.). I agree there have been some screw-ups, such as Mestil's Acid Cheat, but our current intention with the BoT pages is entirely NOT to make Wizard and Sorcerer any more potent.

I don't see what your rant has to do with the context of this thread, but feel free to take it elsewhere and compose it more constructively. Come up with suggestions to spice things up, if you will.

Okay, Assassins needing some extra stuff? That I get. Complaining that rogue are weak? Dude. Have you ever played one? My buddy plays a rogue who hits more often and more hard /Than my weapon master/. ALONG with epic dodge, skills out the wazoo, ridiculous AC, ETC ETC.
You know who really needs to be balanced? Fighters. No, not talking about weapon master cheese builds. I mean the down and dirty fighter. Remember this example?

Quote:

I would frankly be curious to see the percentage, throughout all characters on the server, where each PC has more than 3 rogue levels, amongst ones who have rogue levels -period-.

My bet would be 5%.

Replace 3 rogue levels with 10 fighter levels and 5% with 0%. And I totally get it. There is absolutely no reason to take any large amount of fighter levels because the class, besides EWS (Which you can get in just 4) and more feats (which can be used to the satisfaction of almost any build with just 10) has nothing special about it. I mean, look at its competetition, the cleric. Yeah yeah I know, I can hear you now. 'O cleric were nerfed so bad'. No. No they weren't. I ran the numbers (Excluding True strike because clerics can use that too) and the max, the MAXIMUM a pure fighter can get his AB to is 53. That's with Aid, Bless, and a book of Divine Favor +1, and a +5 weapon, and a half-orc, and- you get the point. Everything maxed.

A cleric?

Can easily get 60. Or more. AND they can implode people at the same time.

So my point is, are there going to be any changes to encourage pure fighter builds, or hell, more than 6 levels in it? Because the class was meant to be the stand-alone powerhouse for Melee combat ever since 1st edition, and I think it should stay that way.

Bottom of the line: pure classing is weak (unless you're a mage) and multi-classing is too good. Blame 3e. Huzzah!

So for assassins is the kneecappers knife getting totally tossed out the window or? Reason i'm asking is because it was the only reflex based handicapper that an assassin had.. The three bonus feats don't make sense to me because of the fact that assassin were not meant for several people, Assassin creed(fun game tho) is the most ridiculous persona of an assassin.. Wouldn't take on an army of enemies and get out unscathed. Rather they have to be smart, scout, research their target find out its weakness, and when it will be vulnerable.. like an assassin would be. They have their target they take their target out.. and get the hell outta there lol.

That's what i found so awesome about playing an assassin and hell i found them way more useful previously than i see them now. I don't want to play an assassin who can take on 5 enemies at once and all that because that isn't what an assassin was meant for.

Romana has more than 10 levels of fighter and more than three levels of Rogue and I love her to bits. I don't know what classes you guys are smoking.

Well, the original assassins were an order of drugged-up suicide-killers (as in, they killed people without any realistic hopes of getting away with it). Just saying.

Never met me then.. give me time and ill find out someway. *grins* and thats how i play Vash. Being assassin is all about brains.. hence why they need Int.

Oh were you talking about AC? or Amia? lol

Robert has both (CoT) Divine Champion and Paladin levels. Extra Smiting and Great Smite. So my questions are the following:

- Does Robert have (3/day Smite Evil, 1/day Smite Infidel), (3/day Smite Evil, 3/day Smite Infidel) or are they drawn out of the same pool, like divine might and turn is drawn out of Turn Undead?
- Does Great Smite affect the damage output of Smite Infidel or only Smite Evil and Smite Good?

Phearnun wrote:

- Does Robert have (3/day Smite Evil, 1/day Smite Infidel), (3/day Smite Evil, 3/day Smite Infidel) or are they drawn out of the same pool, like divine might and turn is drawn out of Turn Undead?

Like I noted, it isn't Smite Infidel - this is a homebrew feat instead due to the impossibility of coding a good replica of Smite Infidel. In Robert's case, he will have 3/day Smite Evil and 1/day Purge Infidel.

Phearnun wrote:

- Does Great Smite affect the damage output of Smite Infidel or only Smite Evil and Smite Good?

Only Smite Evil and Smite Good.

DoomKnight wrote:

I mean, look at its competetition, the cleric.

Buffertanks aren't 24/7 tanks, and comparing across the 'I've Had Enough Time To Prepare' divide isn't what I recommend. Buffertanks have to be better than 24/7 tanks once they've got all the lights and music on, or else there's no point being one.

In PvM, where you always have enough time to prepare, buffertanks are somewhere between hugely and insanely better.

If resting always had a percentage chance of an ambush*, this would no longer be an imbalance. As it is, the payoff the 24/7 character gets is only in PvP and DM events. I know you won't argue a Cleric caught unawares, or after an overly long stretch of Mexican standoff RP, can compete with a Fighter, especially since GS got prisonbitched so hard.

*I'd tweak the ambush system so that the monsters that appear are down a few notches from the real spawns of the zone, but this means adding so much to the palette and Dev workload that it's probably a non-starter.

I do like [I think psycho]'s argument from a while back that Fighter is meant to be the guy that is good with all weapons. If I was scripty and less lazy, I'd be looking at a homebrew feat that granted the purer ones Weapon Focus, Specialisation and Improved Crits in a range of weapons. I say 'range' since weapons are naturally divided up into ranged, finesse and heavy, so if it was deemed to awesomesauce to have the whole lot, you could split them up into ranged, finesse and heavy.

Or, divide them up into type, so that you could take axe and get good with kukri, handaxe, battleaxe, dwarven war axe, doubleaxe and greataxe, or take sword and get good with shortie, longsword, katana, bastardsword, scimitar, rapier, doublesword, greatsword. It's always seemed a bit silly to me that there's no crossover at all amongst obviously very similar weapons like katana and scimitar.

Anyway, good work, chaps. Drool.

Uberuce wrote:

*I'd tweak the ambush system so that the monsters that appear are down a few notches from the real spawns of the zone, but this means adding so much to the palette and Dev workload that it's probably a non-starter.

You could just make ambushes a not-full encounter, with no bosses. The intention there is that if ambushes are more frequent, they come in small waves, until of course the party leaves to try and rest somewhere saner, or everyone manages to get some rest somehow despite all the monsters running in out of nowhere like Sires on speed.

Ten internets to Selmak; that's a way smarter way of doing it.

i know this took awhile to get everything right and i just want to say kudos to the devs/dms/community who helped put this together. it will add more flavour to amia in many different ways. i do see where it was hinted about certain tools being made for a class from something i put in improving amia as a thread

good work guys. now to give these classes a try when they are implemented fully, like im sure everyone else will be doing. master scout seems to peak my curiosity the most.

and just in regards to the rogue discussion: i'll admit it would have been nice to see something for rogues but when it comes down to it its hard to try and cater to the rogue because in the end you are left with a popular multiclass that really would only be remedied with higher level rogue abilities/feats added for a smaller percentage of the playerbase that wouldn't be easy to balance given what rogue can achieve if you put a little thought into it. i myself play a 24 rogue/6 fighter and while it can be a challenge some times, other times it is almost too easy (obviously sneak attack is your major damage dealer with that sort of build). just gotta be prepared, stock up on tools and roll the dice sometimes.

Well it's like I said, the rogues will get a nice surprise with the new bombs.

psycho wrote:

I just find it's a shame a wonderful RP class like the Rogue

This probably needs another thread, so feel free to make one if you want to discuss it further, but: what do you mean by 'RP class' here? The only answers I can think of describe personality traits that anyone can have.

Regarding the master scout: It will lose the other feats like, Tymora's smile, Liira's heart, Deneir's eye, sleep, invisibility?

Maybe, maybe not.

:O very secretive indeed! As I have noticed it is no longer really friendly to the bard class. Everything looks good though. Congratulations, it is indeed a great job!

The Bard class really didn't need any help though right xD

oh I know that....I was just referring that the bard was not named there though they can be good scouts and also many of them are wanderers. This new class concept would fit with many bard as well rpwise.

Bard 25/PDK will be the ultimate Partybooster, Jao!

The changes to Assassin are quite awesome for those 'mostly Assassin' builds, it does make taking more Assassin much more worth it other than wanting to increase the DC on your Death Attack/Assassin Tools. But its also quite a hindrance having to take two pre epic feats as epic feats so the Assassin they can get Epic Dodge, but for those that have trouble with tactics and corner sneaking is totally worth it. But it also makes them more likely to throw a little SD in the build for the free Defensive Roll at level 5 or Monk for the free Improved Evasion at level 9. But its all a tradeoff I guess

I don't care how gimped I have to make myself, I want a bard/knight commander/master scout partyomancer. Auras and bombs and secret potions!

Also, how do the knight commander auras interact with the BG's aura of despair?

Bard/Master Scout/Knight Commander was pretty much the first thing every single tester made when we were doing this internally.... :mrgreen:

I am in no way surprised. That combo screams "use me!"

Pretty much every single one... it was rather amusing looking at the differences in how each tester built theirs.

Bard/KC/MS isn't very gimped, though it suffers a bit from feat shortage. Aura of Despair and KC auras don't interact... that is to say, they work fine together.

Yup, you can run your BG aura and your single chosen KC aura simultaneously.

psycho wrote:

Great for assassins, yay!

What about rogues?

Rogues never ever got one single "boon" to them, contrarily to now -all- (thanks to the new changes which are great btw) classes. Rogues never, ever, ever, got -one single- extra, be it RP, mechanical, whatsover, nada. ALL other classes did.

I fail to believe Rogues are "so good" every single other class deserves some extras, except them.

I was telling myself, when rogue changes where discussed..."Well, at least rogues got epic dodge and some unique feat choices".

The -only- thing they have now is 2 more skill points per level and a few far in between class skills assassins don't. That's -it-.

You can say the same thing for fighters.
That's because they are more generalist classes than others. They have no prerequisites or race/alignment restrictions. You can fit almost any concept into them, due to their versatility. If you want something special(ised), choose PrC.

The fact that people even think for a second that a rogue needs a boost only proves how severely underestimated the class is, the same goes for fighter too. Arguably two of the most powerful classes in NWN if you know how to use them. :lol:

Ðraco wrote:

The fact that people even think for a second that a rogue needs a boost only proves how severely underestimated the class is, the same goes for fighter too. Arguably two of the most powerful classes in NWN if you know how to use them. :lol:

I agree...especially if you know how to combine them...sky's the limit.

Changes looks nice. I am especially looking forward to explore the MS.

One thing I miss however is this: Raising skill points per level from 4 to 6 for the Bard and Ranger class. That would bring them closer to their 3.5 versions, and make them more interesting to play as we would then atleast have a chance to make use of their wide skill selection.

Bards are broken in NwN so I don't think we'll do that.

MoshingChris wrote:

Bards are broken in NwN so I don't think we'll do that.

I've never heard this, how so?

Then atleast give the Rangers something to spend on their skill selection. Now you have to be a human with 14 int to anywhere near the possibility of both sneaking, spotting and trapping efficiently.

Naivatkal: Bards are powerful, no question about it. Would be nice with more skills to put in social skills though.

We're not raising skill points per level on any classes.

In my dreams druids get spot or listen according to D&D lore.

Dreaming is nice *sage nod*

Anyhow... Love the changes! But you already know that. :-P

Is there any possibility of changing the assassins epic bonus feats to every 3 levels instead of four? 13,16,19 instead of 14,18. The changes are lovely but the rogue can still easily best the assassin, the rogue can get those feats you added in pre epic levels whereas an assassin that gets only 2 epic bonus feats and has to spend them on pre epic feats to get Epic Dodge. Most cases the build will also need a Great Dexterity feat just to get enough Dex to take the feat so theres another epic feat spot taken up.
Or maybe make one of them gained automatically like Defensive Roll at level 10 Assassin. A SD gets Defensive Roll for free at level 5 and Improved Evasion at level 10.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

We're not raising skill points per level on any classes.

Is there a reason why or just...no? 6 skill points on a ranger would be lovely (screw the bard).

It would sure be purty, but frankly, they don't need it. Take more INT.

*shrugs* See thats all well and good but there have been so many changes that wern't actually needed that still went in so frankly...my confidence in the system is pretty shot. Besides, moving towards the 3.5 ranger can only be a good thing.

They don't need it. The 3.5 Ranger is a completely different beast to the 3.0 Ranger. They're differently made and have a vastly foreign feel to them, as well. They also have d8 HP in exchange for those 6 per level skill points.

It also means we'd have to rebuild every single ranger on the server for this. Not happening.

Thanks, dudes

I just want to say that everything looks amazing.

Period.

No begging for more...anything. Well done. Double everyone's pay, I say.

What's that? You do this for FREE?! You put up with The Player Base for NADA? Zip, even? ZILCH?!!

Are you INSANE?!

Thanks, and Big Phat Kudos. :twisted:

Yes....Free....

<_< >_>

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