AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Hak Class Changes

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Seeing as there are all these class changes going on im just gonna throw this out there (probably will also win worst suggestion of the week too lol):

Why are the dwarven defender and arcane archer classes racially locked? They could be opened up to other races.

Because they are racially defined ways of life, not merely mechanical systems to be 'opened'. Unless you are more concerned with pure roll play rather than actually roleplaying the class and race of your character, of course...

Little digs aside, I just find it odd that you have to be a dwarf to "know how to fight in a "defensive stance" or only elves thought of imbuing magic on arrows.

"Opening up" classes seemed the easiest way it could be implemented rather than designing new classes/feats/abilities etc.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Little digs aside, I just find it odd that you have to be a dwarf to "know how to fight in a "defensive stance" or only elves thought of imbuing magic on arrows.

"Opening up" classes seemed the easiest way it could be implemented rather than designing new classes/feats/abilities etc.

There is much more than that, though. I like the racial restrictions on some classes.. and, lore-wise, it only makes sense that only those with elven blood can do arcane archery. Its a cultural and religious thing for elves. Its beyond 'imbuing' arrows with magic. In fact, everyone imbues arrows with magic. They're called magical arrows, and can be bought in most weapon shops. :wink:

Can't speak on the lorebits for dorfen defenders, but, I'm sure its there!

If anything, I'd prefer to see MORE racially restricted classes. <.<

Nivo wrote:

If anything, I'd prefer to see MORE racially restricted classes. <.<

This.

Question. Well, Clarification please.

Divine Champion requires Weapon Focus.

For ye olde CoT, that requirement was Weapon Focus in a Melee weapon. Has that been blown open to any Weapon Focus feat? Any danger of a WF:Favoured Weapon requirement?

I don't -think- I saw this mentioned anywhere yet...

Would there be a possibility (or even a desire) to have the Knight Commander required skills include either Persuade -or- Intimidate?

Sorry, has to be one or the other, or both.

Figured that would be the case. Ah well.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Question. Well, Clarification please.

Divine Champion requires Weapon Focus.

For ye olde CoT, that requirement was Weapon Focus in a Melee weapon. Has that been blown open to any Weapon Focus feat? Any danger of a WF:Favoured Weapon requirement?

I confess that hadn't occurred to me, though considering some gods have ranged weapons as their favoured weapon, I only see it as fair to extending it to allow any Weapon Focus.

Oooh, a champion of Solonor AA.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Nivo wrote:

If anything, I'd prefer to see MORE racially restricted classes. <.<

This.

As long as none of them are for elves. You already have one of the most powerful hitting classes in the game.

That's silly. WMs hit way harder. And have more than one function.

None of them should be for elves because elves are the best race in all aspects.

For once I agree with Sune, they should only be made available to gnomes. Because they are, what's the word now......hapless. :wink:

Quote:

You'll even find a feat there no other class has as a bonus epic feat.

A modified version of Sap, perhaps? If it's a feat that no other class has.

As opposed to a commonly available epic general feat that just isn't a bonus feat for anyone? Bane of Enemies? Depends on how you interpret the words; isn't English wonderful?

Some of the work for making Sap a player feat is already done, though. On Amia, Sap already has been nerfed to a more reasonable amount. One only needs to look at Moribund Island's low-CR ghouls - they do sap attacks on occasion, and it doesn't stun you for 12 rounds.

... because it stuns for 12 seconds and alwyas has.

But it's also the most broken feat ever. Daze on command for 2 rounds? Thanks, taking it on every character forever.

Spoilers: Master Scout doesn't get Sap.

I'm pretty sure that what Sune meant was that MS gets a feat on its bonus feat list that no other class gets on its bonus feat list, not that they can't take it on a general feat level. He was being misleading, I think.

TormakSaber wrote:

Daze on command for 2 rounds?

It's called Disarm. In a melee, most PC's will choose to retrieve their weapon when disarmed rather then drawing a new one - thus losing 2-3 or more rounds. One round to realize that their weapon has been knocked away, one to retrieve it (and provoke an AoO in the process, the weapon doesn't land at their feet when knocked away), and one to equip it.

2 rounds of daze actually sounds tamer then what my experience with Disarm is.

If they actually do pull out a spare weapon, disarm them again! Their backup weapon probably isn't of the same quality as their preferred weapon, so their melee ability decreases with each weapon you knock away.

Alex Heartnet wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Daze on command for 2 rounds?

It's called Disarm. In a melee, most PC's will choose to retrieve their weapon when disarmed rather then drawing a new one - thus losing 2-3 or more rounds. One round to realize that their weapon has been knocked away, one to retrieve it (and provoke an AoO in the process, the weapon doesn't land at their feet when knocked away), and one to equip it.

2 rounds of daze actually sounds tamer then what my experience with Disarm is.

Disarm is actually far more brutal, due to the enchantment scripts running on the server, when you disarm, any buffs like GMW or Flame Weapon are removed from the weapon.

It doesn't even need that to be brutal - it messes with players in ways that status effects can't.

Daze goes away automatically after a certain number of rounds. A disarmed player need to do some quick thinking to restore his 'disarmed' status. There's a certain psychological impact there that Sap or Knockdown doesn't have.

I'd much rather face a Sap attempt then a Disarm attempt, at least as a melee character.

As someone who plays sneak attack chars a lot on Amia, I can guarantee that a 2 round daze on people without discipline dumps is pretty DAMN overpowered. I rather doubt it's going to be okayed, no matter how much you argue. No classes grant daze immunity, only stun.. as such it's a guaranteed free round of extra sneak attacking every time it's not saved. Even if people chug a potion afterwards. Why? Because that's a free sneak attacking attack of opportunity too..

Seriously.. imagine jumping from hiding to sap+3-4 normal attacks on someone unprepared. It's a guaranteed kill for any sneak attacker. Right now Assassins have the same capability with their special attacks.. only difference is that it's fort/ref/will based saves, DCs don't go as high as they can on an attack roll, and it's only made once per turn.

Heck even a DC 18 Blindness on weapons can be overpowered on a proper sneak attacker.

Reason disarm isn't equally powerful is because every proper character has at least 2 weapons he's good with on his hotbar slot.. and those two are usually not that far in between in terms of stopping power.

...Trust me, there is worse out there then a 2 round daze....

Alex Heartnet wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Daze on command for 2 rounds?

It's called Disarm. In a melee, most PC's will choose to retrieve their weapon when disarmed rather then drawing a new one - thus losing 2-3 or more rounds. One round to realize that their weapon has been knocked away, one to retrieve it (and provoke an AoO in the process, the weapon doesn't land at their feet when knocked away), and one to equip it.

2 rounds of daze actually sounds tamer then what my experience with Disarm is.

If they actually do pull out a spare weapon, disarm them again! Their backup weapon probably isn't of the same quality as their preferred weapon, so their melee ability decreases with each weapon you knock away.

You're wrong.

Quote:

As someone who plays sneak attack chars a lot on Amia, I can guarantee that a 2 round daze on people without discipline dumps is pretty DAMN overpowered.

He's right, and you don't even need sneaks.

Quote:

...Trust me, there is worse out there then a 2 round daze....

You're right, but in your context, you're completely wrong.

They're not getting Sap, so this discussion is rather pointless!

Derk was right, anyway... except about the fact I was being misleading. I thought what I meant was obvious enough.

I didn't mean deliberately! Now I'm the one that was misleading.

I'm just giddy to see what will be implemented. A lot of this talk sounds as attempts to bait devs and dms to reveal stuff, hehe. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Can I ask if the Master Scout gets an equally varied selection of things to craft as before? I rather enjoyed having so many options. I hope the cool rp tools like Glyph of Warning and Reflective Ring stays. :wink:

PaladinOfSune wrote:

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Question. Well, Clarification please.

Divine Champion requires Weapon Focus.

For ye olde CoT, that requirement was Weapon Focus in a Melee weapon. Has that been blown open to any Weapon Focus feat? Any danger of a WF:Favoured Weapon requirement?

I confess that hadn't occurred to me, though considering some gods have ranged weapons as their favoured weapon, I only see it as fair to extending it to allow any Weapon Focus.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Oooh, a champion of Solonor AA.

Yes, thats what I noticed. Also Sheverash. And there are several with Unarmed Strike and various gauntlets and bracers (Unarmed Strike with pierce/slash damage gloves, I guess), I'm not sure if that would have qualified. Probably.

I'm not sure how feasable it is. Mechanically, perhaps not. Realistically, also perhaps not. But I do think it would be cool to have the requirement to be a Champion to be the Deities favoured weapon. Thats how it is in the sourcebook the class comes from, Players Guide to Faerun, I think?

I mean....its just way cooler. Champion of Corellon with a Kukri? Fail. Champion of Corellon with a Longsword? Awesome.

Well, this might come a little late, but a couple months ago in the shifter changes thread I asked regarding the shifter skill-set. It has hide as a class-skill you see, but it lacks move silently. This came up, as well as back and forth discussion on the topic:

TormakSaber wrote:

That's rather od. I've no issue with that being fixed. It'd be a hak thing though.

The thread this is from.

So, I was curious did this small detail manage to make it through ? Because it's rather annoying only having one half of the stealth action.

A few new listed haks I thought might be worth to consider:

Wearable Animal Furs The bear, goat, lion and wolf look quite good.
Egyptian Stuff Quality does not overwhelm you with most of these, but definetly worth to browse for people like Mosh and Hendrack, and Khem stuff.

I would also really dig additional animations.

Not related to class changes, though.

Phearnun wrote:

A few new listed haks I thought might be worth to consider:

Wearable Animal Furs The bear, goat, lion and wolf look quite good.
Egyptian Stuff Quality does not overwhelm you with most of these, but definetly worth to browse for people like Mosh and Hendrack, and Khem stuff.

I would also really dig additional animations.

Shemsu-Heru's Egyptian Armory is the link the Egyptian Stuff links goes to and it says it requires the CEP.

I was told that CEP is best not even installed in Amia.

So, I have to ask....

Does this mean they have taken the items in the link and added it to the Amia hak or will we be needing to install the CEP?

No, it means Phearnun found those links and posted them here for the Devs to look at.

http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=162366

That's an ozelotl on the right there! This would be awesome to add. *nods*

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Not related to class changes, though.

Aye, simply did not know a better place to post them. I can edit them out and put it in imp amia if you want the topic to stay soley on the class changes.

Bah, when you said wearable animal furs, i was hoping for one where the head of the animal was not ontop of your own head, like a beserker, but rather on your shoulder, as a cloak-type thing.

jimbono1 wrote:

Bah, when you said wearable animal furs, i was hoping for one where the head of the animal was not ontop of your own head, like a beserker, but rather on your shoulder, as a cloak-type thing.

Would have preferred that as well, but sadly not around. Though I just looked at the new hak stuff and did not browse through the old, as I think the devs and such likely did that already.

You could, but there's not a whole lot of point now. We've already finalised the hak contents and a lot of what you posted is already in there, so!

PaladinOfSune wrote:

You could, but there's not a whole lot of point now. We've already finalised the hak contents and a lot of what you posted is already in there, so!

*fidgets* Need... have... hak! :3

Naivatkal forgot to say please... PLEASE?! :shock:

Any ETA on when it'll be here then?

Until someone starts paying us wages, we don't need to work to a deadline.

I'll just say soon, I suppose.

I see...>_>

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Until someone starts paying us wages, we don't need to work to a deadline.

I'll just say soon, I suppose.

Ill give you a penny for every day it is released before next friday. >=]

When I come into a large amount of money I promise to donate 1,000$ to amia.

Got lots of shithot Project Q stuff in there, I hope?

I hesitate to even ask this, since it would be easy to interpret it as a nag, which I don't intend... I hope you all can believe that this question is borne of ignorance, not impatience.

Once all the relevant people have agreed on what should go into the hak, what's left to do? Some sort of labor-intensive scripting, or something? Drawing on my absolute zero knowledge of these things, it would seem to me (because I'm probably an idiot) that getting people to agree on the content would be most of the hard part.

im guessing with the limited amount of developers and testers that its the bug testing that will take the most time... but that's just my theory!

They should recruit!

@ Lizzie: Everything need to be put together and go through some testing so no major problems occour later. Depending on bugs or problems that may be found, things need to be fixed and then tested again.

More or less, yes. Testing testing testing.

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